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Potatoguy

The "BUT" Thread

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Posted (edited)

Well. I am quite satisfied of what I saw with Doom Eternal. Very satisfied.

 

Especially motherfucking GRAPPLING HOOK SSG. WHOASHIT.

 

This is a guarantee game for me to buy (unless the devs do a 1080 nosedive to controversial rock bottom), and I will suspect to love playing this game for a long time, as I did with Doom 2016. The gore detail along is a big plus for me, and I like seeing demons fall apart as I spew rockets, bullets, energy shots, and everything else onto demonic flesh.

 

BUT.

 

There's a but.

 

There's always a but.

 

When there's demons, there's "buts".

 

And that's what this thread is about. A thread solely focus on critiques for Doom Eternal. For as we wish something is perfection, there is always a flaw to be found, that can hopefully be rectified. And I got my own but.

 

Doom Eternal's gameplay looks fun as fuck. BUT, the game looks way too DAMN easy.

 

From the entire time I was gazing at the gameplay, I noticed that the main player was having a very hard time getting hurt or punished by ANYTHING. I really love how powerful the Doomslayer has become in this sequal. Air dashes, shoulder-mounted weapon fire (that probably replaces the grenades), and much more vertical movement gameplay really makes the badassery the Green Armor Man already is be more profound more than ever. BUT it seems so easy now.

 

Maybe the enemies are much more difficult than what it seems, because the player themself in the demo was a pro. But with the added dash and especially the grappling hook, the mobility of the Slayer was unmatched, even to the demons that are supposely the threats. I'm worried with the added dashes and movement from the SSG, it makes NOT getting hit by demons all too easy now. Pinkies have now become a non-threat, with the dash just letting you be a fucking Matador for their charge. Hellknights barely posed a threat from the footage shown, and getting up close to Cacos/Pain Elementals is pretty much a guarantee with the SSG grappling hook.

 

Oh yeah, the SSG. Like it wasn't the best gun already.

 

Look, I like the SSG. Nothing beats 2 full-blast shotty right at the face of a Baron of Hell. But its power was already an extremely powerful weapon that lots of players usually dualed with any other weapon during combat. You had Rocket Launcher, Gauss Cannon, and Plasma Rifle. But usually, you would switch to the SSG just for its sheer power and stun chance it does to ANYTHING.

 

Now giving it a grappling hook? Another mobility option to approach and evade demonic onslaught? How could it not be a mainstay weapon to constantly switch to?

 

I know I am coming off as nitpicking bitching, but my but has to be shown for other buts to be known. If you have your own BUTS to speak about, you can post it here. I know this Doom game will be a top 5 FPS of this year easily, but concerns must be stated. I just hope I'm wrong about my assumptions.

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Regarding the gameplay looking too easy, I noticed that the player takes very little damage from getting hit and that the area-of-effect on the new Baron doesn't seem to cover as wide an area as the visuals indicate. I suspect that, aside from playing on an easy setting (with invulnerability on for the health, since the player lost no health in situations where he was hit with no armour), the AI has also been purposefully dumbed down to better show off the new gameplay features.

The E3 2015 demo of Doom'16 had some dumbed down ai, since enemies where fast and more vicious in the release version.

 

As for my buts, they are mostly nitpicky:

 

I've alluded to this a while ago, but I'm ambivalent about the Doom Slayer having short sleeved armour now (though sort of glad he keeps the Praetor Suit). Aside from feeling a little tryhard and unnecessary, it also takes away from a bit of personal interpration I had of the new (sort of retconned) Doom universe that suggested that Hell is so hot and has air so toxic that you would basically need a super-advanced high tech full-body suit capable of keeping the body temperature suitably heated or cooled to resist hostile environment temperatures.

That would've made Hell seem truly nasty and like a place definitely not meant for mortals (since they plain simply wouldn't last five minutes there without fatally dehydrating or choking to death). With him no longer having all of his body covered, that takes away from that. Oh well, hail the silliness I guess.

 

The gun sounds aren't bad, but they don't seem to cut through the rest of the game noise as much as the 2016 versions. I saw a comparison video of Doom 2016 gameplay and Doom Eternal gameplay and it was particularly noticable with the Heavy Assault Rifles of both games; the 2016 had a sharper sound that cut through all the other sounds nicely, whereas the new one has a bit of a pew-pew sound that blends more into the general soundscape.

 

A lot of the more classic monster/pickup redesign, while I do appreciate those designs, they come with a slightly bitter pill to swallow; saying goodbye to Doom 2016 designs that I've grown rather fond of and seem to fit well in the new universe.

 

The Marauder and "floaty-tank-skeletal-dude-with-chainsaws" concepts seem very out of place compared to the style of the other Demons, they may have changed or appear different ingame, but so far, I'm not feeling it. I do remember the Crucible Guardians, which was the weakest Demon design imo of the Doom 2016 beastiary, and these two seem worse in my eyes.

 

Several glory kill animations are very similar to the Doom 2016 ones, with the minor change of the Doom Slayer using his wrist blade to admittedly impressive effect. I would have preferred all-new animations as even with these small changes, they kinda feel old already.

 

The music doesn't feel as memorable this time around. I'm hoping that's just because it's unfinished. The Ambient music also comes across as less sinister, though I might be getting that impression merely because there's very little of it in the demo as it focuses mostly on the action segments.

 

I'm not completely sold on the new rocket launcher and the ballista (I always did prefer Doom weapons to be rooted in sci-fi low tech mixed with high tech stuff). These look like they're taking the "metal head" theme and expanding it into the weapons design and I'm not really sure about it yet.

I will give them the benefit of the doubt though as I assume they might help add interesting lore perspective; if the UAC start playing around with mystical alien/Hell weapons and adding those to their arsenal (with tech modifications), then it would help better set up something like the Unmaker, which a lot of people have been asking for (I'm not personally a fan of the Unmaker, but I'm a fan of seeing people get what they want and new Id seem to be very good at reinventing stuff I previously liked less into something I think rules).

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The plasma rifle.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love how it's been given a classic look. But if you're going to give it the classic look, give it the classic sound! Hell, just ripping it straight from classic Doom and throwing it in might work.

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The disappearing corpses. Seriously. The reason why is that not only does it break the immersion like with Doom 2016, it also brings some pretty depressing implications for the Arch-Vile, namely that it might just be yet another one-time boss. 

 

Although it may have been mostly drowned out by the music, the weapons do seem a lot punchier and more meaty than the ones in D2016 (save for maybe the Ballista, possibly a replacement for the Gauss Cannon).

While the new Rocket Launcher may seem unusual at first, it does seem to have more of an identity to it unlike the D2016 RL which literally looked like it was ripped from Halo. 

 

In regards to the difficulty, I have a sneaking suspicion that the player was playing on “Hey, Not Too Rough” or something similar. That could explain why the player barely took any damage. I should note that it looked like the monsters in the E3 demonstration for D2016 appeared to deal a lot more damage. 

 

Aside from the disappearing corpses, my nitpicks are mostly on minor things.

Why do Arachnotrons now have blue blood? How do you explain the sudden change in appearance in the Mancubus (aside from the arm cannons which appear kind of similar)? What’s the new method of zombie possession (it has to be different since the zombies no longer look like their clothes and armor melted into their body)? Where does id Software plan to go with the potential idea of Heaven vs. Hell?

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Posted (edited)

I almost couldn´t stand the waiting to see the gameplay but as i saw it i skiped already in the half of it because i did not liked what i see. Even after several times of watching it yet, it doesnt grow on me. Sure there are some aspects i really like but unfortunally, at least from what i have seen so far, i am very disapointed.

 

- stupid humor now like the Caco swallowing the grenade and let it explode inside his body while only get a fat belly for a second. Or the "stomp the head between the shoulders" glory kill. Hopefully they dont add a banana peel as weapon to bring demons to fall aswell.

 

- a lot recycled glory kills. Even the Arachnotron got the one from the pinky from Doom2016 when the slayer sticks the teeth in his eye. And the glory kills with the arm knife all feel weak (whats the point in adding the Predator stuff anyway?). Beating demons to red mush with berserk feelt so much more satisfying in Doom 1 & 2. I miss the punchy sound, the sound from the soggy mass, the flying gore and bone mash. There are so many glory kills that only feel dull.

 

- maybe its not done yet and they will add it later, its a point i disliked at Domm 2016 already. Thats the stupid chunks and crumbling of the enemies. I liked how the guts where looking out of the dead Cacodemon on the old Doom games. Now they explode as if they where made out of solid rock. Also when using the BFG (so far for Doom 2016) it´s like smashing the terra cotta army.

 

- the teeth / flesh hell architecture looks so genereic. A lot of the design in general looks generic. Maybe it will come in later levers but i hoped to see the wooden halls again, the green marble walls etc. The design in the old Doom games had a somewhat surreal tone here and there. Now its broken down to the real cheesy metal covers.

 

- the "feeling ultra badass" gets already tired because you get it so obvious shoved in the face. I am sure they could add it a bit better between the lines and it would have worked as well. I am afraid with what they will come up next. Doom Slayer transforming into a BFG on wheels and shooting tripple blade chainsaws. By the way, i was expecting the chainsaw wihl have two blades this time. At least they only add this to this new designed and also very genereic demon.

 

I could add so much more but maybe you get it already ... Shred me if you want, but so far i am just disapointed.

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I should also add that while I'm usually down with what Mick Gordon has to offer with the OST, I'm not feeling 100% with what was heard in the gameplay reveal.
While the music for the Earth section has definitely grown on me, I'm still particularly not sure about how to feel with the Phobos section, namely because the "heavy music" section that plays on Phobos sounds suspiciously similar to this:
 


Of course, everything is subject to change, or maybe the Phobos section will grow on me the same way the Earth section did.

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6 hours ago, Otus said:

 

 

- the "feeling ultra badass" gets already tired because you get it so obvious shoved in the face. I am sure they could add it a bit better between the lines and it would have worked as well. I am afraid with what they will come up next. Doom Slayer transforming into a BFG on wheels and shooting tripple blade chainsaws. By the way, i was expecting the chainsaw wihl have two blades this time. At least they only add this to this new designed and also very genereic demon.

 

 

They still have to reveal the super chainsaw...

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I don't like the look of the Hunter/Sabaoth.

 

I also prefer the Possessed versus the new Zombies.  Why can't we just have both?

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Calling @Maes avatar to this thread.

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Posted (edited)

I'm just wondering how they'll explain the more radical redesigns (Like the Mancubus, an actual reason for why the zombies have green hair, etc.) in the lore.

Hugo: "Everything we do has a story behind it."

I do like the classic designs though. Please Don't hurt me.

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On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 4:47 PM, Potatoguy said:

(unless the devs do a 1080 nosedive to controversial rock bottom)

 

Technically a 1080 would leave them facing the same direction as they started!

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The Heavy Assault Rifle. It was a badass weapon in the last game, it looks badass now. And shooting it scoped looks very effective and sounds satisfactory.

 

BUTT. 

 

The primary fire, while effective, sounds like a dinky little paperclip scratching against someone's skin. 

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12 hours ago, Pepsiman said:

I'm just wondering how they'll explain the more radical redesigns (Like the Mancubus, an actual reason for why the zombies have green hair, etc.) in the lore.

Hugo: "Everything we do has a story behind it."

I do like the classic designs though. Please Don't hurt me.

More radical designs? Obviously captured Mancubi were enhanced by UAC to fight for mankind... but then they just fought against it... or it's just wave 2 of Hell's attack.

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So far I mostly like what I see, BUT if it isn't released on Steam, no chance. I'll wait until it comes out there or somewhere else that doesn't require a useless extra launcher (aka additional DRM).

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, geo said:

More radical designs? Obviously captured Mancubi were enhanced by UAC to fight for mankind... but then they just fought against it... or it's just wave 2 of Hell's attack.

Sure, but the new fatties looks like an entirely new species or something, not like the “enhanced” Cyber Mancubi from 2016.

I’m confident they have a perfectly reasonable explanation for it but I just can’t think of one right now.

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On 8/14/2018 at 9:12 PM, Man of Doom said:

The disappearing corpses. Seriously...

 

from demon corpses being consumed by hellish fire to strogg corpses being consumed by green "nanomachines" and Rage mutants consumed by nanotrites I think it's since Doom 3 that because of technical reasons most corpses disappear (Raven kinda fixed that when extending id tech for Wolfenstein 2009, to avoid nazi corpses disappearing consumed by.. nazism?). It clearly makes a difference from Doom I and II where you could pave the floor with corpses.

Perhaps they should start thinking about an engine architecture that allows for that again already.

 

About the mancubi change in look when in earth, I'm not much worried, did anyone ask why imps and hellknights looked "dirty" when in hell in Doom 3?

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'Classic' sprites recreated in a modern engine = boring and lazy.

 

I'm not blind, I don't need car-sized armor/medikits.

 

The music really sounds more and more like someone drilling your skull from five different directions. I wasn't a huge fan of the DOOM4 OST but this one sounds borderline annoying.

 

Neither the Marauder nor the Doomhunter fit DOOM. The new id in general doesn't seem to be very creative with the enemies. They're either recreating old monsters 1:1 or go for this overdesigned Blizzard look, like they did with the Hell Guards in DOOM4.

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4 hours ago, Quasar said:

So far I mostly like what I see, BUT if it isn't released on Steam, no chance. I'll wait until it comes out there or somewhere else that doesn't require a useless extra launcher (aka additional DRM).

 

This is why Steam is cancer.

 

3 hours ago, Pepsiman said:

Sure, but the new fatties looks like an entirely new species or something, not like the “enhanced” Cyber Mancubi from 2016.

I’m confident they have a perfectly reasonable explanation for it but I just can’t think of one right now.

 

Maybe just another Mancubus species?  Rattlesnakes and Cobras look very different yet are both snakes.

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All proprietary launchers are garbage. I didn't want Steam on my system either once upon a time, but that ship sailed and it had to be accepted.

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58 minutes ago, Touchdown said:

'Classic' sprites recreated in a modern engine = boring and lazy.

 

I'm not blind, I don't need car-sized armor/medikits.

 

The music really sounds more and more like someone drilling your skull from five different directions. I wasn't a huge fan of the DOOM4 OST but this one sounds borderline annoying.

 

Neither the Marauder nor the Doomhunter fit DOOM. The new id in general doesn't seem to be very creative with the enemies. They're either recreating old monsters 1:1 or go for this overdesigned Blizzard look, like they did with the Hell Guards in DOOM4.

"Their design does not match my preference? it must be Lazy and boring."

 

Though I will Agree the Skeleton Tank looking enemy looks goofy even for Doom Standards.

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Pepsiman said:

Sure, but the new fatties looks like an entirely new species or something, not like the “enhanced” Cyber Mancubi from 2016.

I’m confident they have a perfectly reasonable explanation for it but I just can’t think of one right now.

Please don't fat shame. Video game demons from Hell are people too. Call them defense intense. It could all be muscle for what we know about the new game.

Edited by geo

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Posted (edited)

There are many things i expected in DOOM Eternal. Everything i saw from the trailer and the gameplays were badass and promising to provide another modern DOOM experience, an actual LORE from the game plus redesigned monsters with new ones we know from DOOM II. And here is my BUTS:

-DOOM Eternal's earth design looks very 2016 UAC style. Maybe UAC progressed and implemented so much of it's tech to Earth. This is fine if it's an alternative universe where DOOM Slayer traveled since DOOM'16. (I'd like to see some creepy and unusual ancient surreal buildings in earth we know from DOOM II: Hell On Earth/Plutonia/TNT Evilution btw).

 

-I expected a massive quantity of monsters versus YOU. The original DOOM II increased difficulty and complexity to fight with demons and harder ones throughout each map than Ultimate DOOM. For DOOM Eternal, there's not enough demons to deal with as if it's a RPG style of game. It's been like this since DOOM'16. Where you must kill a couple of demons in order to proceed to another sector of a Single Player map.
 

-DOOM II maps are bigger, complex and fun to discover with full of clever traps. While DOOM Eternal didn't adapt this classic DOOM II concept, it has just the same gameplay and level creativity as DOOM 2016 has.

-Everything i saw in the gameplay was a full demon killing simulator with new movement abilities and a stabbing melee/glory kill system as if you're totally rigged to kill anything you see thanks to its new abilities. Your not longer a lone demon killer who has guns to shoot. You're just an advanced soldier with hacks to have more advantages to your enemies you fight with. Nothing to explore, or trying to survive with a massive difficulty that reaches up to the original DOOM II.

I definitely want to play DOOM Eternal overall. But i'd love the game even more if they included the DOOM II spirit of creepyness, John Romero/Adrian Carmack's hell design, difficulty, traps, bigger maps and exploration. I don't say the game will be a failure. It's going to be a success, but i definitely dreamed for a DOOM II successor with their complex elements i mentioned.

Edited by IrOn7HuB

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31 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

"Their design does not match my preference? it must be Lazy and boring."

 

 

Yes, recreating 25 year old assets instead of coming up with something new is lazy and boring. I'm just weird like that and prefer things that are a bit more original and less obvious.

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If the "new" they came up with is some ugly generic POS like the 2016 Hell Guard or Eternals Hoovertankdualchainsawwhatsoever then i prefer the redesign of the old sprites by far. For me its more lazy and boring to see that the new created enemies looking like out of the toys "r" us halloween corner.

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I think the gameplay demo was on a low difficulty (maybe HMP) so that they wouldn't die or get tilted during the presentation and/or so that they could show off new stuff without taking too much damage, and I think the Meat Hook means we won't be seeing the return of the SSG's OP as all Hell Double Trouble upgrade. And don't murder me, but I actually liked the Hell Guard's design.

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10 minutes ago, Novaseer said:

I think the Meat Hook means we won't be seeing the return of the SSG's OP as all Hell Double Trouble upgrade. And don't murder me, but I actually liked the Hell Guard's design.

I don't see why not. Pretty much every gun in '16 had two mods whereas the SSG only had one. no reason you can't have both, unless the upgrade/mod system is substantially different.

 

I liked the Hell Guard design too (Flesh mechs piloted by gross hell worms is also a cool idea), but it just felt out of place and a little too separated from the other designs.

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2 minutes ago, Pepsiman said:

I don't see why not. Pretty much every gun in '16 had two mods whereas the SSG only had one. no reason you can't have both, unless the upgrade/mod system is substantially different.

The SSG had no weapon mods in '16. It simply had improvements (DT was the mastery upgrade), whilst with the addition of mod(s) for the SSG for Eternal and the pattern of only upgrading the mods themselves, as well as the completely broken nature of DT, means we likely won't see it in Eternal.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Touchdown said:

 

Yes, recreating 25 year old assets instead of coming up with something new is lazy and boring. I'm just weird like that and prefer things that are a bit more original and less obvious.

When they updated the designs in Doom 2016 people complained.

Now that they went back to the original designs... people complained.

Fans cannot make up their minds and just cry "Lazy and Boring" when the product does not meet their preference.

 

but then again these types of complaints are bottom of the barrel "Must find one flaw" nitpicks which always pops up in any hyped game.

 

Also 1 didnt know the Arachnotron had a tail cannon in the original Doom 2 or the Imps doing quick leaping attacks. Yeah its obviously a copy paste of Doom 2.

 

If it ain broke dont fix it.

Edited by jazzmaster9

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