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MTF Sergeant

Is jumping considered cheating?

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Taking into account, the fact that this is even an option in GZDoom and Zandronum. I use the freelook and jumping functions to the fullest extent while playing megawads.

 

Since the original Doom was never one to introduce jumping and freelook in the first place, would using these special functions(and others)found in most present-day source ports be considered cheating the game???

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it's soft cheating which isn't really offending anyone :)))
if you care about tackling the levels like the authors intended, you should turn off jumping/vertical mlook for any level targetted at MBF, Boom or less

if you don't, use whatever settings you prefer

 

obviously if you tried to a submit an iwad speedrun with your jump key activated it'd be rejected!

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, yakfak said:

 

Obviously if you tried to a submit an iwad speedrun with your jump key activated it'd be rejected!

What's the problem of playing an IWAD level with jumping? I know about PWADS, but I really don't see why speedrunning an IWAD with those functions gets rejected.(no offence) 

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If I can, I use freelook because I hate autoaim. Otherwise, I use a lock-on crosshair in the ports that allow it so I know where my shots are going.

When using ZDoom, I try to set the compatibility and turn off jump and crouch to the specifications of the map, because most maps aren't constructed with jumping and crouching in mind.

Also, it's worth noting that in Crispy Doom and PRBoom, jumping is technically possible, as both engines have an "opt-in" option to allow jumping, but they're off by default, and its clearly intended for maps that are broken in some way that jumping is the only way to move forward.

 

So, is jumping cheating?

Depends. In a ZDoom map with it turned off by default, it's fair game. In a non-ZDoom map (unsure about Eternity), yes.

The real problem arises when you have someone who plays only ZDoom and breaks the map by jumping, but then cries, "It's allowed, so I didn't break it!" This is a serious point of discontent for me, because it's a weak argument in defense of "I decided to not play the map the way it should be played."

That isn't a point against ZDoom by any means, because I use ZDoom and I like it. It's a point against those who know what "Boom-compatible" or "vanilla" means, but don't even try to change the compatibility so the map works properly or change other settings so it plays properly.

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Not so much rejected as just put into its own category, which most people interested in the game would not take seriously nor competitively. 

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3 minutes ago, MTF Sergeant said:

What's the problem of playing an IWAD level with jumping?

IWAD levels are not intended to be played with jumping on (except some like Action Doom 2 or Adventures of Square), enabling it will allow players to reach areas they can't normally reach without jumping, and potentially break level progression, or even bypass areas, it's kinda like cheating.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, rdwpa said:

Jumping can sequence break progression and let you improperly escape encounters in maps that aren't designed with jumping in mind. Free aim can allow you to hit shoot switches from unintended positions. In the end, no one can legislate how you play. But if you are playing something made for an executable that doesn't support those features, and you actually want some semblance* of what the map is meant to be, then try to avoid skips or things like bunnyhopping over damaging nukage. You would only be 'cheating' yourself. 

 

37 minutes ago, tempdecal.wad said:

IWAD levels are not intended to be played with jumping on (except some like Action Doom 2 or Adventures of Square), enabling it will allow players to reach areas they can't normally reach without jumping, and potentially break level progression, or even bypass areas, it's kinda like cheating.

 

Basically this.

 

In short, jumping is not cheating but using it, as well as freelook as a matter of fact, can have consequences in maps that were not designed with them in mind.

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Yes, as yakfak said, it's a soft brand of cheating. It's not as much outright cheating as starting a level and typing IDDQD and IDKFA, but it is still cheating. As Fonze said, jumping during runs on levels that were intended to be played without jumping (such as the iwads) will cause those runs to be disregarded from a competitive standpoint, because of the undue advantage that jumping can provide (i.e., cheating).

 

Cheating can be defined as performing an action that you are not supposed to be doing that has the objective of gaining an advantage you wouldn't otherwise have. In that context, jumping on a map not intended for jumping would be considered cheating. Even though you didn't ask about it, the same would be true for freelook.

 

For example, suppose a level was designed (vanilla or Boom, particularly) so that when you walk into a room, a 32 unit wall comes up behind you, trapping you with a swarm of demons that gets released. There are also hell knights in alcoves around the room, so you have to deal with them at the same time you're fighting the demons. The objective is to fight your way to the other side where there is a switch that you need to press. Without jumping, you have to fight off the demons while dodging the projectiles from the hell knights and killing them. With jumping, you could easily jump over that short wall and focus on dispatching the hell knights while ignoring the demons that are completely unable to hurt you. Once the hell knights are dead, you could turn your attention to killing the demons and then jumping back over the wall to go hit the switch. However, in this scenario, jumping would be cheating because you aren't supposed to be able to jump over the wall and the encounter was designed as if you couldn't, so jumping confers you a distinct advantage that you shouldn't have.

 

Consider Map 30 of Doom 2 with freelook. The level was designed around not being able to aim any direction but out of the plane, and that is where the challenge of finishing the level comes from--you have to time your attack as the pillar is rising, all the while dealing with incoming attacks from the spawned monsters. With freelook, you can just aim upward as soon as enter the level, thus removing virtually all the challenge by doing something you shouldn't be doing, which is cheating.

 

Also note that jumping on a level where the author did not intend for you to jump is different than, for example, avoiding a fight that was designed to be very difficult with a shotgun, and then doubling back to that fight after you've gotten a plasma gun that is found later in the level (thus making the fight easy). The former is explicitly not part of the original physics of the game, while the latter may just be an oversight on the part of the mapper.

 

Now, it is absolutely true that you can play the game however you want to play it. If you want to play levels (regardless of the author's intent) with jumping and crouching and freelook on and bunnyhop and rocket jump around, go ahead, have fun, knock yourself out. If you're having fun, that is what matters. Just the same as if you wanted to start E1M1 and engage IDKFA because you enjoy splattering zombiemen and sergeants and imps with the BFG while listening to At Doom's Gate. Have fun. That's what is most important when you're just playing the game for yourself.

 

But be aware that you may not be experiencing the map the way the author intended and, as rdwpa said, you may just be cheating yourself. Also, don't complain that a level isn't challenging if you're jumping around and avoiding all the built-in dangerous encounters that are designed around not being able to jump.

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Posted (edited)

Jumping is only appropriate in mods where the author makes it clear that jumping is a feature. Freelook is trickier because it only causes issues when there's a shootable switch that requires you to be in a specific position, the Icon of Sin being the most famous example. I use freelook because I enjoy precision aiming, but in those instances I temporarily turn it off.

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So, the stuff I need to take care of is: Do not turn on jump/freelook while recording an IWAD speed demo. Am I right?

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If you want to do an IWAD speed demo, then using PRBoom on complevel 2 is one of the best ways to go. That way it's not something to concern yourself with.

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personally i play it by Date/completion. if the game was intended to be played without jumping(and i haven't beaten it) i try not to jump where it could risk breaking the levels flow. but free look is something i always go with bc i consider it standard for any excellent FPS, such as DOOM.

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No. It stands to reason somebody with 'Space Marine' as a job title could jump or scramble over some low obstacle. If somebody designs a level where there is a Megasphere on a 25 unit high table and some convoluted method of lowering it down, that's not my fault.

 

Truthfully, the times I manage to defeat some portion of a level by jumping is almost none. If I jumpto get a key, I usually get lost later on and end up fighting through the entire gauntlet you'd normally go to flip a switch for it anyways.

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This reminds my of this map that I made recently. It's a Hexen map that wasn't designed for jumping, so I disabled it. Is it considered cheating to reanable jumping for this if the game itself has jumping as a feature?

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Jumping doesn't only allow you to skip some fences. This isn't even a complete list:

1) Jump over monsters and map decorations for turbo speed until you land.

2) Practically immune to damaging floors.

3) Godlike move against revenants, especially if you have a stair nearby (Let's you smash all his projectiles into the floor reliably).

4) Get elevated items.

5) BFG tracers vs elevated monsters.

6) Anyone who played jumpmaze will swear by sr40\50 jumping, bunny hopping addicts!

7) Jump over supposedly infinite height actors. What? You get to places you should never be able to move above!

8) Can skip some traps with fences not covered by trap trigger lines. 

9) Invulnerability and blue armor allow rocket jumping. 

10) Jump over teammates in coop. Oh server has player blocking off? Well rockets still allow that without modding! 

11) Very rarely some elevated decorations become arch-vile warding charms while in a pinch.

12) Super boosted jumps by archviles, Cool points if done off a rocket jump.

 

Some of those don't apply to heretic and none apply to hexen -where jumping is introduced and players jump like drunk dwarves-. Freelooking is the lesser evil. Using it to snipe elevated enemies from afar is the only thing that can happen regularly, icon of sins are so rare and everyone just wants to end the stupid level the moment they appear. Especially not the TNT icon of sin and the doom 2 ones (Not exactly a difficult map, unless you can't time rockets at all then rip :p).

 

Crouching? We don't speak of that evil around these acres.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, MTF Sergeant said:

So, the stuff I need to take care of is: Do not turn on jump/freelook while recording an IWAD speed demo. Am I right?

You should probably just record those iWAD demos in PrBoom+ anyways, like the rest of the runners. And yes, jumping and freelook turned off is the way to go there, because how could your run compete/be compared with others if it is played with a different "standard"?

 

Why record in PrBoom+ in particular? Because of demo compatibility, for example, which is not something you will get from ZDoom derivative source ports unless of course those have been discontinued.

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I leave jumping and freelook disabled unless the WAD specifically calls for them. Fortunately, it seems like very few do.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

You should probably just record those iWAD demos in PrBoom+ anyways, like the rest of the runners. And yes, jumping and freelook turned off is the way to go there, because how could your run compete/be compared with others if it is played with a different "standard"?

 

Why record in PrBoom+ in particular? Because of demo compatibility, for example, which is not something you will get from ZDoom derivative source ports unless of course those have been discontinued.

 

This actually has me wondering what other's opinions of using PrBoom+'s freelook (note: not freeaim) while recording demos. Personally I try not to use it if: I feel like it goes against the map's intentions, for testing accuracy reasons, and/or for any semi-serious demo recording, but in a way I acknowledge that it may be somewhat of a stupid thing to care about since its use arguably helps in very few, and specific at that, situations, and even then only in the subtle factor of observation. Personally I also find that it makes it harder to judge vertical autoaim's cutoffs. Interestingly though if you don't turn it on when watching a demo you wouldn't even know somebody was using it when they recorded said demo.

 

I suppose on a related thought, PrBoom+ has a few things like that, or enemy health bars in gl, or the crosshair that shows autoaim thingy, or a crosshair in general, that all kinda fall into a similar category as freelook.

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Posted (edited)

People have recorded prB+ demos with freelook on and weapon bob off, and when negative things are said in response, it's exclusively about the viewer finding those annoying to look at. 

 

Enemy HP bars, seeing enemies through walls, using -trace features (your moment-by-moment damage output, HP of specific enemies, etc.) in-run -- those are just TAS, and not soft TAS either. Wouldn't put that in the same category as freelook. I'm not familiar with the exotic crosshairs, as I've never used them, but the crosshair in general is (with possible rare exceptions) fine. 

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If you compete (speedruns), then everyone has to stick to the same rules, period. Be it jumping on or off, but everyone has to be able to do the same actions. Whatever you do outside of competitions is entirely up to you. 

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So prboom's freelook is actually on even during compat mode? It was driving me insane and I thought running in plutonia\doom compat did nothing due to config problems -yes I didn't just disable it because if it works I thought my demos weren't in correct compatibility setting-.

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