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GoatLord

Is id done with lockdowns?

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Posted (edited)

None of the three demos from the recent reveal seem to suggest that the player will get pushed into a "Painkiller" stlye closed-off arena, forced to kill every single enemy before moving on. It could be that it's a feature that simply wasn't shown, but the Doom 2016 promo videos made it clear that was an expected mechanic.

 

With "Eternal," we see the player bouncing around the level at their own pace, and at no point was there any suggestion of a lockdown. It looks to me like they've optimized the engine to be able to handle a large number of simultaneously active baddies, so if lockdowns are present, it'll probably be a rare thing like they were in the classics—E1M6's red keycard, for instance, which closes off the room for 30 seconds.

 

If this is true, and you truly have control over pacing—as well as how passively you want to play—then it would make sense that the corpses still disappear. With the number of onscreen enemies possibly being much higher than before, it once again places a fundamental limit on how many polygons can be rendered per frame, making it infeasible to have dozens of enemy corpses visible at once.

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The size of the maps and the way they're divided in sectors, make me think of a sort of "node map" with areas loaded separately. It can be possible that to proceed to the next sector you need to kill a certain amount of baddies, but in general looks like the level flowed better without forced arenas with telegraphed encounters. Still Marthy and Hugo were speaking about "less exciting sections" in one of the interviews when they said invasions would make such sections more exciting. Not sure how this fill unfold.

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Posted (edited)

No, lockdowns are still in. Pretty sure they've mentioned it in one of the interviews that they have to trap you because otherwise you'd be able to trivialize the encounters. Of course there are probably modifications to that system but yeah, lockdowns are still in.

 

EDIT: Here's that interview.

 

Hugo Martin: Arenas are a part of Doom. Yes, they can be overused, and we will accept that criticism – especially in the second half of the game, that’s accurate. The incidental combat areas could be improved upon and we feel like we have. We’re trying to create an incredibly polished combat [encounter] – the Doom dance. If we don’t seal you in at times, you could kite AI. You run in, you aggro the AI, then you back out the door and, as they funnel in, shoot them in the head. We’re not going to get anyone loving Doom if we allow you to do that.

 

Marty Stratton: I think you’ll also find [Doom Slayer] is faster, we’ve expanded his movement capabilities quite a bit. Even when you’re in an arena, it’s a big arena and it doesn’t feel like an arena. It’s a new level of arena for us. I’m outside a massive gore nest that has taken over this industrial, UAC-ish facility – off in one distance is the burning city, and off in the other side there’s a lava lake. Shit’s going on all around me. It’s a combination of things being done to address the criticisms of [Doom 2016].

Edited by Touchdown

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4 minutes ago, Touchdown said:

No, lockdowns are still in. Pretty sure they've mentioned it in one of the interviews that they have to trap you because otherwise you'd be able to trivialize the encounters. Of course there are probably modifications to that system but lockdowns are still in.

 

Yep. They gave the example of funneling demons through a doorway and picking them off one by one. I can understand why that’s a big consideration, since iD would have to treat the entire map as one big battleground, or else people will exploit things. But they’ve also mentioned that the overall flow will feel a bit less predictable. They mentioned having more interesting enemy encounters in between the big clashes. And obviously the arena areas themselves are just bigger and more vertical.

 

So they’re not completely changing the arena setup, but they definitely seem to be improving things a good amount. 

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I think the problem is not so much that there are lockdowns/arenas but rather that all of them play roughly the same. I've been replaying Sunlust not too long ago and man, there are so many memorable encounters. A single level usually has more combat diversity than the entire DOOM4. They still trap you a lot but every time they do there's a different challenge to tackle. I don't think they're gonna get even close to that in DE but I hope they're gonna have way more exploration and 'incidental' encounters, especially later in the game.

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Posted (edited)

I imagine there will be lock down. With so much freedom or traversal nothing stands in your way like Just Cause 2. By the end of Doom Eternal footage I kept wondering if it's just quicker to avoid the monsters than deal with them. Then I realized... lock down.

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Nothing wrong with locking the player in, you just gotta mix things up.

 

In fact some of the best Quake custom maps do this and they use really neat encounters and environmental changes to keep each one fresh.

 

I'm not saying doom is quake but the increased lethality of the monsters and their speed, as well as the arena verticality and combat style definitely evoke quake somewhat

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Lockdowns weren't really shown in Doom 2016's gameplay footage either at E3.  And here they are.

 

I don't really mind them, honestly.  Beats just running through everything.

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Posted (edited)

I think they just don't want to take risks, play it safe and use the formula people enjoyed from the first game and try to expand on it, which is not a bad thing.

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I think it's more related to their concern that, as mentioned, having a bunch of enemies parade through a door while you pick them off kinda sucks, gameplay-wise, and having a large number of onscreen enemies will still tax the framerate too much.

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I think the problem isn't lockdowns themselves, but rather the linearity of them in the later levels. Levels like Argent Facility still used lockdowns but in a "do it in any order you like" approach. Kadingir is one of the best levels in the game in my opinion from a pure gameplay perspective, but it often loops around back on itself and even reuses some arenas.

 

What would also help would be if there were more than two key colours. Maybe bring in the five from SnapMap, as unlike in the originals, there's the HUD space for it.

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I don't think so. On the other hand, they mentioned the arenas would be larger so you probably won't notice it anymore.

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That's the best solution it would seem. Just give the player a bigger space to bounce around in.

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Posted (edited)

I did notice in one part in the first Hell on Earth gameplay video that some of the teleporters required to proceed didn't activate until some of the enemies in the area were killed, but even so that's the only time I noticed such a thing.

 

TBH if they're keeping the arenas but making them a lot less noticeable/used then I don't really mind.

 

 

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For me it also looked the arenas just became bigger. I don't have a problem with the arenas, even in Doom 2016 they were totally fine for me. If I remember correctly classic Doom also had a mix of smaller doorways with single enemies and huge spaces with stronger and more enemies. Although it didn't have a lock down mechanism on the latter ones you usually stayed in that location for a while. 

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Didn't Central Processing in the original Doom have a lock-down in the red keycard room?

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1 hour ago, Ex Oblivione said:

Didn't Central Processing in the original Doom have a lock-down in the red keycard room?

I mentioned this in the OP. It's one of the rare instances of OG Doom locking down, so it's not an automatic violation of classic design principles that they appear in new school Dooms. What made them unattractive was that they became the only form of encounter in some of the later hell maps in Doom '16. 

 

Doom Eternal's focus on significantly larger play sets will likely ensure a more varied lockdown experience. 

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as long as it's fun to kill shit, i don't really mind if they continue with the arenas. considering how a lot of Doom mods has a big emphasis on locking you into arenas you have to fight your way through, i think it can work here too. there might be more varied encounters too, and the level-design in some places look really big (like that one Earth level), so i think they can deliver.

 

my only personal wish is that while they have lockdown areas, i hope they don't lockdown backtracking in this game. it was a surprise to be able to freely explore the first half or so of Doom 2016, being able to hunt for all the secret areas scattered around, and then just immediately getting blocked off from doing any kind of backtracking in later stages, as well as the progression getting more linear. if they could have more non-linearly designed levels, as well as make the linear levels not permanently shut off access to certain areas containing hidden items, then i think this game has potential to go from a solid 8 to a perfect 10.

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One of the downsides of the Arena setup in my opinion is that it makes some weapons less desirable to use.

 

For example the Gatling gun, especially in turret mode, would be good for crown control in restricted areas, for example corridors, but I found it quite useless in arenas, where you need to constantly stay on the move. Same thing for the gauss cannon (one of the weapons I had less fun with) and the scoped assault rifle. I found the super shotgun and the rocket launcher the weapons of choice in such arenas, especially after unlocking the master mode for the SSG (probably it makes it a bit too powerful, being able to basically oneshot 90% of the demons). From the doom eternal gameplay trailer I was impressed by the mechanics of the new weapons, they look more varied and with less chances to become obsolete (I used the pistol only when I run out of ammo in the first levels, after that my main weapon was the shotgun until I found the SSG and the rocket launcher). 

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I disagree on the Gauss Cannon. After improving aiming it was one of my favorite weapons, especially in the level where you save Vega.

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the Gauss Cannon is basically a smaller BFG in the game with Siege Mode on. at no investment it deals a crazy amount of damage, which does take longer to charge, but can be quickly upgraded to charge much faster. i forgot how powerful it was, but i think it just straight-up kills Hell Knights, and two to three shots is enough to kill every regular enemy in the game. plus it's handy in boss-fights due to how much damage it dishes out.

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11 hours ago, Viscra Maelstrom said:

it was a surprise to be able to freely explore the first half or so of Doom 2016, being able to hunt for all the secret areas scattered around, and then just immediately getting blocked off from doing any kind of backtracking in later stages, as well as the progression getting more linear. if they could have more non-linearly designed levels, as well as make the linear levels not permanently shut off access to certain areas containing hidden items, then i think this game has potential to go from a solid 8 to a perfect 10.

I mean, it's a symptom of a game that spent eternity in development hell. We should be surprised it even came out, let alone receive the acclaim it did.

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I hope so, they got boring and repetitive very quickly. I dont mind them in the game as they add to the variety of situations you can play in, but Jesus, not all the damn time trapped in a little round arena. Keep them at a minimum.

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