You won't believe it! This doomgod has been cheating all along!

[Nine Inch Heels]

2 minutes ago, Vorpal said:

Unverified is truth though.

How do you actually not get that Anc's request to take his run off the site for the time being is the least bit of courtesy that you owe him at this point?

 

By the way, all the runs listed on your site are unverified. Also who's gonna verify them, and how?

 

The actual truth is that you're unable to verify his run, just like you can't verify any other run, because you do not have any standards for verification of your own.

You have not brought forth any points that back up your position, at least not ones that hold up to scrutiny.

 

The problem is that most people who take your site serious, probably because they're missing out on this dumpsterfire of a thread, will still get the impression that something about that demo is fishy, because you already set that tone. On top of that you're not demonstrating any willingness whatsoever to prevent any further unjustified speculation about the legitimacy of Anc's run, you're doing basically the opposite and you're not even realizing that.

[GoneAway]

3 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

How do you actually not get that Anc's request to take his run off the site for the time being is the least bit of courtesy that you owe him at this point?

Not to mention I'm pretty sure it's illegal :^)

[Vorpal]

I've obliged the takedown ultimatum, it'll take some time to revert the whole thing back to a boring screenshot page and it's almost bedtime. It's a foreign concept to me though, like if someone trashes my map then I'll go demand its removal from the archives? Really though I'm obliging Olivera, who gave me the permission initially to build/organize these runs based on his collection. And I've cocked it up with negative vibes after only a month (no he hasnt said anything to me about this and isn't involved in the trainwreck afaik). I mean my gut emotional reaction wants to use it as a weapon in this argument so don't view this as me trying to earn some honor points, but even I have a moral or two deep down in my lizard brain with regards to trust that was given to me.

 

What will my tombstone read? I vote for "webcam, bitches!"

[Benjogami]

2 minutes ago, Vorpal said:

 It's a foreign concept to me though, like if someone trashes my map then I'll go demand its removal from the archives?

I think a better analogy would be: you upload your map to the archive and it gets categorized into the /sketchy_hacks/ directory. I could imagine someone wanting their map taken down over that.

[bioshockfan90]

just popping in to say that doom's a niche community and anyone that cared enough to boost their ego to cheat speedruns would stick out like a sore thumb.

 

whatever though, i just think it's a pretty irrel thing to debate over for 4 pages at this point but i can see where vorpal's coming from

 

people'll make demos for years to come, the wheel keeps turning and i'm sure this'll be a question again at some point but for now the community's small enough to detect anomalies like this

 

carry on as you will

[Ancalagon]

On 8/28/2018 at 10:32 AM, Vorpal said:

youtube comments he says 130 attempts for this achievement, this is the most unbelievable for me

 

I think this point hasn't been commented much, normally # of attempts is inversely proportional to lenght of demo, this is because for longer demos players choose more reliable strategies, specially in the later parts of the demos. In this demo the point where I pretty much stopped rushing is the end of map32 because the section of maps between maps11 and 32 were big run killers in ep2, many of these because of missing monsters. After that I only used strategies that I could do pretty much 100% of the time unless something really unlucky or unexpected happened (like alerting one of the viles in the map29 rev curve). While for 20 second demos it isn't uncommon for attempts to go into the thousands, or even the not so short ones like my hr22 max that was getting close to the 1000 mark sitting at 739 attempts in my demos folder.

 

About preparation and practice, you don't just go and wing it for such a long demo, I invested at least twice more time preparing and practicing the run than actually doing attempts.

 

And surviving the whole wad isn't much of an achievement as it's not very hard but I am happy with getting a time that's relatively close to the sum of all IL maxes in the wad, being just around 20% slower.

[Bob9001]

1 hour ago, Ancalagon said:

 

I think this point hasn't been commented much, normally # of attempts is inversely proportional to lenght of demo, this is because for longer demos players choose more reliable strategies, specially in the later parts of the demos. In this demo the point where I pretty much stopped rushing is the end of map32 because the section of maps between maps11 and 32 were big run killers in ep2, many of these because of missing monsters. After that I only used strategies that I could do pretty much 100% of the time unless something really unlucky or unexpected happened (like alerting one of the viles in the map29 rev curve). While for 20 second demos it isn't uncommon for attempts to go into the thousands, or even the not so short ones like my hr22 max that was getting close to the 1000 mark sitting at 739 attempts in my demos folder.

 

About preparation and practice, you don't just go and wing it for such a long demo, I invested at least twice more time preparing and practicing the run than actually doing attempts.

 

And surviving the whole wad isn't much of an achievement as it's not very hard but I am happy with getting a time that's relatively close to the sum of all IL maxes in the wad, being just around 20% slower.

Yeah exactly this! You want have a look at my demos folder? Yikes!! Demos are coming out of my ears and that's just the failed ones. Let alone the ones I've submitted. Doing a D2ALL is a whole 'nother level above IL's, people know this. You gotta commit to say 3-5 hours if it's a max or 30-1 hour if it's a speed.

 

Also don't forget the fact that @Ancalagon's demo came out of the blue, atleast to my knowledge I didn't know he practising a D2ALL for AV.

[GarrettChan]

17 minutes ago, Bob9001 said:

You gotta commit to say 3-5 hours if it's a max or 30-1 hour if it's a speed.

To be honest, it's not the way to compare things like this. A well polished 30-second run can take way longer than a not so well polished 6-minute max run. Overall, there's no real easy correlation between run type & run length and time consumed. Yes, generally a longer run takes longer time, but having (at least) 2 variables is not really a good way to compare. You may think a Speed run could be easier because you don't care about killing all the monsters, but it needs more hard work on the movement side than a Max run.

[Player177]

I think, once again, the prosecutor want to be 100% sure (but he does not set goal to do AV D2all) about this run but as already been said, indirectly or not, in every second message in this scandalous thread that this run does not satisfy 100% purity since this is impossible. And this will never be for any other run ever! For two reasons: 1) Somebody will always be a doubting Thomas. This is absolutely normal. 2) There is no ideal 100% demos as there is no ethanol with 100% strength. Specifically this demo does not gain credibility because of  technical requirements (and I agree) but it's still reliable. All the grounds have long been listed. There is only a petty hope that to resolve this situation in the future Anc will mercifully record a new run with cams, security, and in the presence of the accuser himself. But there is danger that at the meeting the prosecutor probably will get a punch to the jaw.

[Novaseer]

5 hours ago, Vorpal said:

What will my tombstone read? I vote for "webcam, bitches!"

- Some people cannot afford a webcam.

- Some people, normally younger ones, are not allowed to use a webcam.

- Some people don't know how to edit in a webcam.

- Some people don't want to show their face on the Internet.

- Some people, like the people in this post, will downright refuse to use a webcam.

 

Do we want to exclude all these people from an already relatively small community?

 

EDIT: Not to mention, how would you even integrate a webcam into a demo?

[Liberation]

This is all complete nonsense, in real life false/unproven accusations ruin people lives when made public and this (while no way as serious) should not of been made public unless the people in the "know" actually confirmed this to be true.

 

If proven false however, the allegation should stay in a discord channel somewhere out of sight. 

 

And while discussing cheating in this thread has actually been very factual and interesting to me, the responses from the runners is disappointing.

[Memfis]

I really don't like the direction in which this thread went. To me it looks like a closed group ganging up on an outsider who wants some legitimacy but is instead expected to have simple trust, which is never a definite thing unless you're a member of a cult perhaps. It is a fact that pretty much any Prboom-plus demo might be cheated, and stating this unpleasant fact can't be wrong. Vorpal labeling that specific demo as possibly sketchy can't be considered an insult, it's just an application of the classic principle that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's not his fault that we're insane and okay with believing speedrunners with no proof. This thread will look completely ridiculous to a recorder from almost any other community.

[GoneAway]

11 minutes ago, Memfis said:

Vorpal labeling that specific demo as possibly sketchy can't be considered an insult, it's just an application of the classic principle that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's not his fault that we're insane and okay with believing speedrunners with no proof. This thread will look completely ridiculous to a recorder from almost any other community.

It is an insult because he selected anc specifically. Why didn't he also call out all the other demos? Here's a reasonable approach: "why don't you require video footage?" as a thread, completely unrelated to calling out a specific player. If someone acts like a complete asshole they'll be treated as such. This is the way of the world.

 

Please show me these other communities where a webcam on the hands is required. Many of us are speedrunner involved in a lot of other communities, not just doom, and I've never seen such a requirement, so it must be quite uncommon. If anything, many runners outside feel the need for demo recording is too much of a requirement on proving the validity of a run. Your and Vorpal's comments just show a basic ignorance of the greater speedrunning community. That's fine, but refusing to see reason is what has made the thread what it is.

[Cacodemon345]

18 minutes ago, kraflab said:

Your and Vorpal's comments just show a basic ignorance of the greater speedrunning community. That's fine, but refusing to see reason is what has made the thread what it is.

Can't you read this:

26 minutes ago, Memfis said:

This thread will look completely ridiculous to a recorder from almost any other community.

 

[Bob9001]

1 hour ago, GarrettChan said:

To be honest, it's not the way to compare things like this. A well polished 30-second run can take way longer than a not so well polished 6-minute max run. Overall, there's no real easy correlation between run type & run length and time consumed. Yes, generally a longer run takes longer time, but having (at least) 2 variables is not really a good way to compare. You may think a Speed run could be easier because you don't care about killing all the monsters, but it needs more hard work on the movement side than a Max run.

Yes that's true in the case of some demos, but if you want OPTIMAL times you will put in a lot more time than a 30-second rng blessed run.

[j4rio]

10 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Can't you read this:

 

You do realise that's precisely the point he was refuting, right?

[Cacodemon345]

1 minute ago, j4rio said:

You do realise that's precisely the point he was refuting, right?

Yeah. But it felt like he ignored the last line Memfis said.

[Nine Inch Heels]

33 minutes ago, Memfis said:

This thread will look completely ridiculous to a recorder from almost any other community

This is wrong. When I reached a world record highscore on a virtual pinball table that had more than twice the points the previous record holder accomplished, nobody ever asked me to record anything, and nobody ever had any doubts about the legitimacy of the score I achieved. Why? Because I have been known to be a decent enough player prior to achieving that score, and I also had progress scores to show at 25% and 50% of the final score that I had gotten.

 

The only reason the occasional paranoid debate gets unleashed is that people jump the gun at times, and Vorpal basically admitted as much himself already. We all know that PrBoom+ has "built in" TAS features, that is not the point. The point is that baselessly labeling something in a way that discredits a runner's achievement is the wrong thing to do, doubly so when the reasons for that course of action don't hold up to scrutiny at all.

[rodster]

Guys chill. At the end of the day everyone's gonna believe what he/she wants. I still think that Okuplok didn't cheat. Besides can we introduce memes into this thread?

[GoneAway]

There are lots of people from other communities in the discord because it's more open and welcoming than these forums. People should probably learn about something before making blind assumptions. 🤔

[rehelekretep]

good news is that now Anc is World Famous :D

[Dragonfly]

Yo @Memfis where's the webcam proof for the winning runs on this thread?!

 

 

 

Before you take this the wrong way, my point is to lighten up. If we start taking this kind of stuff with such extreme 'professionalism' and putting up barriers to entry such as the requirement for a webcam, followed by verification walls, this part of the doom scene will die. This thread has been pretty much nothing but bad news for all involved.

[GoneAway]

An important thing to me in doom speedrunning is that everyone can evaluate a run for themselves.

 

People can record with jumping on if they want, do respawn runs with advanced hud, use fancy source ports, etc. Each person can then look at a run, see the circumstances, and make up their own mind. Some people hold vanilla demos up on a higher pedestal because of their authenticity. Some people think tools like advanced hud take away from the achievement of a run. Some people are skeptical to the plausibility of an exit. All of that is ok. The key is that it's up to them to decide how they see something.

 

People like Andy are really historians. They archive things without passing judgment so that future people can look at things without bias. This is something special and unique in the Doom community, and one of our great strengths.

[Vorpal]

3 hours ago, kraflab said:

It is an insult because he selected anc specifically. Why didn't he also call out all the other demos?

 

Its release happened to coincide with a time where I was paying attention to runs, and it was a special run that I've been waiting for for a long time. I also assumed (haha) that older stupendous demos had gone through some kind of referee crucible.

 

For a bit of psychology on what's wrong with my brain, I used to be into speedrunning in the dinosaur era where the .lmp format had rock solid credibility. Then the source code release kinda scared everyone, there were some Witch Trials suspecting custom .exe's and so on, then TASDoom came along and let everyone realize and play with the power at hand, at which point I lost interest in speedrunning. Fast forward through the years of more ports more capabilities and then you even have frame by frame editing at the hexadecimal level or w/e without any HID in the equation. I don't scorn those developments, one of my favorite demos is a tas, so I wouldn't dismiss myself as an angry old vanilla codger.

 

But yeah tl;dr the .lmp format has no correlation to proof, and I wanted very deeply to care about a particular run. The only thing I can do as Swing Batta Heckler Fan Guy is shame the practice of accepting amazing .lmp, and nothing else, as benevolent by default. I'm also not a nice or polite person and don't plan on changing that any time soon.

 

Note that I didn't consciously think about all this stuff before going derp, lol. This is just some self reflection and soul baring about how we got here

[Doomkid]

from now on when I record my wad reviews I'll make sure to have a second webcam pointed at my hands so you guys know my unmitigated godly skills are 💯% legit

 

In all seriousness, I think it's clear that Vorpal didn't intend any harm here. Sloppy decision, flat out silly in fact, given Ancalagon's stellar record that many, many people can vouch for independently of one another. Still though, I don't want to see him roasted and toasted for what can be boiled down to a simple mistake. There seems to be an assumption from some that this was somehow done maliciously but to me it's clear that is not the case.

[GoneAway]

The lmp format gives us a lot more ability to detect cheating, e.g. by using heuristics to look at mouse movement (I think dew can comment more on that?).

 

Of course as with any game splicing is a possibility that can be investigated but is difficult to prove.

 

One of the fun things in doom is that it would be very difficult for someone bad at doom to cheat in a way that wasn't obvious in a run that mattered. Since a hypothetical person would have put in a lot of time and effort, it's especially unlikely for them to cheat. The type of cheating that Kimo did is the main thing I expect happens at rare times behind the scenes. I'm curious what you think anc's motivation would be in cheating a table fill.

 

It seems like you've decided guilty until proven innocent is the only reasonable path, however cynical, so I guess there's no point in trying to discuss it further.

 

[geo]

So this is just baseless allegations at this point? I wonder how much traffic it has generated.

[geo]

44 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

from now on when I record my wad reviews I'll make sure to have a second webcam pointed at my hands so you guys know my unmitigated godly skills are 💯% legit

And with enough practice it can be like piano and you can sync it with your gameplay.

[rehelekretep]

wow did you just call AV d2all a table fill? lol :D

[GoneAway]

2 hours ago, rehelekretep said:

wow did you just call AV d2all a table fill? lol :D