Blighted Moonbase IV - 100% this map for 200 bucks

[leodoom85]

@PanI'm with Glaice, Memfis and the other guy who complained about the framerate. The fact that the entire map is made solely of two-side linedefs and it's only closed by the only boundaries that it has, it makes the map almost unplayable in GZDoom. Please think about the rest of the users that can't afford some power in order to play such a beast. Memfis said it well...huge maps in Doom, especially for advanced sourceports, can't handle the massive amount of things and lines.

And yes, 27 mb for only a mp3 file is just atrocious.....sorry but you need to optimize the map fully before posting it here.

[Pan]

I don't think I am able to reverse the decision to create the map in UDMF format. I can't convert it to Pr-boom. If that's the case then I suggest challengers go to an internet cafe if they need to use a more powerful machine.
 

[Fonze]

2 hours ago, Player177 said:

So this is how you need to verify a probably suspicious demo :)

 

Actually with the beauty of recording a video with no data to back it up, he may not even be running the same wad file.

[Pan]

Ok i've just tried running it on my crappy HP Pro Book. Not even built for gaming, specifically built for the workplace. I am getting very minimal lag. I'm confused.

Anyway, I'm sure like last time there will be someone who can beat this map. It is certainly beatable with saves. I think the challenge comes form the constant pressure and grind for 2 hours. If a player can progress past the first wave of free roaming zombies and make it to the blue key courtyard then I think the rest of the map is beatable if handled strategically. The beginning of the map is hard because of low ammo and health (if you don't know where to find it). The end of the map's difficulty focuses much more towards monster encounters/low health.

[leodoom85]

16 minutes ago, Pan said:

I don't think I am able to reverse the decision to create the map in UDMF format. I can't convert it to Pr-boom. If that's the case then I suggest challengers go to an internet cafe if they need to use a more powerful machine.
 

Hmm. There's a solution. Maybe only changing the textures and the actions and adding teleports by splitting the map into several areas, only connected by teleports....

It can help to reduce the lag....just an idea...

[therektafire]

Yeah I don't think @Pan has any notion of knowledge of how graphics are rendered on ports based these old engines like Doom and Quake at all. Basically unless it will try to render the *entire* map in one go and just do this thing called "overdraw" where it has to manually figure out where you are and what you can see and removes everything except for those parts. I'm not sure but I think all BSP based renderers suffer from this issue to some extent. In both doom and quake you can partially help this by compiling a "vis" or "reject" table but even a reject table wouldn't save this atrocious map since you can technically see everything from everywhere (at least as far as the map and reject compiler are concerned) si you would probably just end up with longer compile times with a larger map file and no noticeable performance improvements. So basically what I am saying is, you should turn ALL the walls into 1 sided lines where possible, which luckily does at least fix overdraw issues in doom afaik. And add sound block lines so you don't have 1000 monsters active at once. Then it might run a *little* better even on our crappy low spec laptops :D

[therektafire]

Here is a test you might be able to try, I know GZDoom uses a quake style console so go into the map in GZDoom and try "r_showtris 1" or whatever the equivalent would be for gzdoom. I can ASSURE you you will see that it is trying to render the entire map at once because you'll see all the triangles the engine is currently trying to render + overdrawn ones.

[Pan]

I'm posting another video of me playing blighted moonbase on my dog poo hp probook. I fire a shot which awakens the monsters, we see brief lag as they awaken and then fps returns to normal and playable. If I play a proper run of blighted moonbase I don't get any further frps drops that are noticeable.
 

You guys are gas lighting me.

[therektafire]

Ok well even if it does run fine for you it's still really bad map design and you should never do it because it *will* lag for other people. Impassible non-transparent walls should always be 1 sided anyway, it makes no sense for it to be otherwise.

[GarrettChan]

It's funny that someone asked others to play his map by having real money as a price, but players are complaining about how badly design the map is. To be honest, it seems not very reasonable to me that OP offers higher and higher prizes for his map, and continues to develop the map into a monster or something. Then, you see the "additional" rules added for each new version of the map. It feels OP just wanted to beat DW but he found that he always left something behind for someone to cheese his prize, especially with 2 hours limit right now.

 

Not only requiring GZDoom doesn't interest me, the look of the map doesn't interest me either. From the beginning, the lag problem seems a bad or dirty design of a map. Well, my feeling is correct.

Edited August 31, 2018 by GarrettChan : I don't know the difference between "prize" and "price", nice job, me.

[therektafire]

He is like the action 52 of map developers lol, making people sit through the torture of his unoptimized broken crap with the promise of maybe getting some money

[Nine Inch Heels]

24 minutes ago, Pan said:

You guys are gas lighting me.

No, we are literally not gas lighting you.

Let me remind you that I already mentioned potential performance issues that stem from your mapping style in the first ever map you shared on these forums:
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1768489

 

Your response was "runs fine on my crappy Laptop" then, and it turns out your laptop isn't actually *that* crappy. That said, you would do yourself and others a huge service if you tried to be more reasonable with how resource intensive you build your maps, because *some* people may encounter performance issues of some sort, and it's not always the gear that they own that's at fault, because bottlenecks that cause framerate issues can manifest themselves because of pretty weird reasons at times.

 

As people also already pointed out, doom is an old game that comes with its own quirks, and on top of that you have source ports like GZDoom with all their enhancemens to visuals as well as handling/checking hitboxes and such. Good on you for testing your map on 2 different machines, but 2 machines aren't representative at all, mind you.

[Pan]

1 minute ago, therektafire said:

He is like the action 52 of map developers lol, making people sit through the torture of his unoptimized broken crap with the promise of maybe getting some money

Maybe get some money? I've paid out 3 times now.

Players who beat this map will be reborn through the fires of hell, baptised by Lucifer himself and return to earth with 200% more testosterone, extra chest hair and huge, veiny, giant pulsating manliness.  

Of course you are scared, we are all scared. You can blame the lag. Do you think Lucifer cares about your lag? Fear is the ego killer. Have no fear! 

 

[Erick]

15 minutes ago, Pan said:

Of course you are scared, we are all scared. You can blame the lag. Do you think Lucifer cares about your lag? Fear is the ego killer. Have no fear! 

Even if there are no performances issues (regardless of hardware and GZDoom), I still don't imagine anyone really bothering to play a map that looks like this.

There isn't really anything that makes me want to play this, and honestly I rather spend my time on a map with some actual design to it as well as fun gameplay over some map made with only a bounty to even get people to play it to the end.

[leodoom85]

17 minutes ago, Pan said:

Maybe get some money? I've paid out 3 times now.

I can get money with actual effort. 

Quote

Players who beat this map will be reborn through the fires of hell, baptised by Lucifer himself and return to earth with 200% more testosterone, extra chest hair and huge, veiny, giant pulsating manliness. 

I can say in a manly way that you should optimize the map for better results. It's not that hard ;)

Quote

Of course you are scared, we are all scared. You can blame the lag. Do you think Lucifer cares about your lag? Fear is the ego killer. Have no fear! 

Better to stay calm and reasoned enough to not have fear and ego at the same time...Try better next time for your maps. Good luck.

[Pan]

1 minute ago, leodoom85 said:

I can get money with actual effort. 

I can say in a manly way that you should optimize the map for better results. It's not that hard ;)

Better to stay calm and reasoned enough to not have fear and ego at the same time...Try better next time for your maps. Good luck.

 

I expect Blighted Moonbase IV to claim many victims.

 

i should put a warning ‘this map will psychologically destroy the unprepared.’

 

Here’s the thing about Blighted Moonbase IV. You are actually battling against yourself. Your own psychology will make excuses ‘it’s the lag’ or ‘it’s the line defs.’

 

It’s your own weak mind telling you to Give Up.

 

 

[leodoom85]

1.- Yes, many will die in your map

2.- Yes, put a warning. It's better honestly.

3.- Not really, it's my laptop that can't handle. Simple as that

4.- Not weak and giving up. Again, go to my third point.

5.- About the above comments, we already said that your map is not for anyone in terms of specs.

Now, I'll leave peacefully o/

[SleepyVelvet]

Works fine on my $2000 supercomputer.  not sure what people are complaining about.

[Pan]

3 minutes ago, NoisyVelvet said:

Works fine on my $2000 supercomputer.  not sure what people are complaining about.

Oh dear. Lucifer is in trouble now ;)

[GarrettChan]

57 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

(history)

Oh, it's not the first time. Interesting. However, he's the one who gives out money. Why should he care about performance issues when you have no luck gaining the price? ;P

 

Since OP doesn't care about actual feedbacks on his maps, it's more likely that he just solely wants to beat DW community.

[Pan]

3 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

Oh, it's not the first time. Interesting. However, he's the one who gives out money. Why should he care about performance issues when you have no luck gaining the price? ;P

 

Since OP doesn't care about actual feedbacks on his maps, it's more likely that he just solely wants to beat DW community.

Don’t worry I’ve learned a lot from the feedback and I’ll be applying it to my next map.

 

i can’t do anything about the lag complaints so I guess this competition is restricted to computers that can handle it.

 

my next map will be more open to low end computers. I have started working on it but it will probably take 6 months to complete. In the meantime I’ll be interested to see if anyone can beat the hardest installment of blighted moonbase. The other 3 were clearly too easy.

[GarrettChan]

If you really want some Doomgod to be involved, make a Boom map instead of UDMF map.

[Pan]

 

Here's a free tip for anyone looking to survive more than 10 minutes. You need to be heading in the direction of this entrance with the impaled corpses, which is close to the entrance of the maze. You will only need to battle through low tier hit scanners, imps and 2 archviles behind some barrels to reach this point (you should be equipt with chaingun and super shotgun by now). The archviles are easy if you use cover correctly. From here you need to battle to the rocket area to meet the cacodemon wave, which is drawing ever closer at this point. From a vantage point of the rocket area, you can take out the cacodemons. There's plenty of ammo back there. Once that's taken care of then you have lots of options.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Pan

[Mechadon]

3 hours ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

@Mechadon

In fact, I mention Mechadon because he's very likely to have insight on this situation and why your map might be so hard on our machines.

I have been summoned!

 

I haven't tried the map out, but the DB shot gives a clue.  Having that many monsters active at once (or even if its a big chunk of them) combined with the long lines-of-sight are almost certainly the cause. 

 

I'll use one of my maps as an example - MAP05 of Vela Pax has significantly less monsters than this, and my FPS would dip down into the teens in certain areas that overlook the large outdoor vistas.  If the monsters aren't active, its not nearly as bad.  However if you run the map in PrBoom+ and look at the same areas under the same circumstances, the lag is basically nonexistent.  From what I've heard, (G)ZDoom has a tougher time with maps like these just because it is inherently more complex under the hood.

 

Anyways that's my guess!

[Pan]

The furthest I've made it so far...and the horde is definitely thinning out at this point. The main difficulty is the lack of respite. Ammo conservation is crucial and ensuring that you push forward to new pockets to find more ammo. Spending too long in a single pocket means the giant horde will eventually catch up to you. You will not have the weaponry and space to take on the horde until you gain a foothold over a large section of the maze. This allows you the space and maneuverability you need to deal with Satan's army

I'm a doom noob so I expect someone will probably beat this map soon.
 

[Pan]

4 hours ago, Mechadon said:

I have been summoned!

 

I haven't tried the map out, but the DB shot gives a clue.  Having that many monsters active at once (or even if its a big chunk of them) combined with the long lines-of-sight are almost certainly the cause. 

 

I'll use one of my maps as an example - MAP05 of Vela Pax has significantly less monsters than this, and my FPS would dip down into the teens in certain areas that overlook the large outdoor vistas.  If the monsters aren't active, its not nearly as bad.  However if you run the map in PrBoom+ and look at the same areas under the same circumstances, the lag is basically nonexistent.  From what I've heard, (G)ZDoom has a tougher time with maps like these just because it is inherently more complex under the hood.

 

Anyways that's my guess!

Thanks Mechadon. I'll definitely make my next map boom compatible. A slick frps will be essential for beating this map. 

Honestly, I'm not getting frame rate issues at all. I get more frame rate issues with Lainos' maps like Comatose.

[Misty]

2 minutes ago, Pan said:

The furthest I've made it so far...and the horde is definitely thinning out at this point. The main difficulty is the lack of respite. Ammo conservation is crucial and ensuring that you push forward to new pockets to find more ammo. Spending too long in a single pocket means the giant horde will eventually catch up to you. You will not have the weaponry and space to take on the horde until you gain a foothold over a large section of the maze. This allows you the space and maneuverability you need to deal with Satan's army

I'm a doom noob so I expect someone will probably beat this map soon.
 

Why mazes? Mazes are so 90's and boring to deal with. How about learning about some simple traps? Like monsters emerging from the floors or teleporting in area or getting out from closets. Less incidental combat, more tacticial stuff.

[Pan]

19 minutes ago, Myst.Haruko said:

Why mazes? Mazes are so 90's and boring to deal with. How about learning about some simple traps? Like monsters emerging from the floors or teleporting in area or getting out from closets. Less incidental combat, more tacticial stuff.

I'm a child of the 90's. I like the mazes of Wolfenstein 3D. But unlike Wolfenstein, you'll find lots of variation within my mazes. Different types of patterns and monsters guard different parts of my maze. There are areas in the maze the could be considered Boss Fights because of the special, extra strong custom monster guarding that area. The maze also regularly breaks out into open courtyards that give you lots of space to move. If you reach hell and beyond you will come to areas that are not mazes at all and totally different landscapes with deserts and pyramids.

 

My next map will definitely have more complicated traps as my mapping skills develop.

[DooMknight]

1 hour ago, Pan said:

I'm a child of the 90's. I like the mazes of Wolfenstein 3D. But unlike Wolfenstein, you'll find lots of variation within my mazes. Different types of patterns and monsters guard different parts of my maze. There are areas in the maze the could be considered Boss Fights because of the special, extra strong custom monster guarding that area. The maze also regularly breaks out into open courtyards that give you lots of space to move. If you reach hell and beyond you will come to areas that are not mazes at all and totally different landscapes with deserts and pyramids.

 

My next map will definitely have more complicated traps as my mapping skills develop.

 

You must play and learn more of the original doom and doom2 maps, some are very labyrinthic and intricate and don't require a great mapping skill in technical questions.

Yesterday I downloaded the map out of curiosity and after 3 minutes I had no desire to see more. And as others say here the solution is not to pay for people to play, but rather to create something that people actually want to play. Don't get me wrong, I just want to make a constructive criticism.

I'm sure that by playing other maps and opening them in the editor you will learn some things and you will create a very good and more interesting maze map...

[NaZa]

You know, I do think your idea of giving out money in a "competition" just so people can play your maps (which don't look up to standard) is extremely well organized. Your maps certainly got a lot of attention!