Player177 Posted September 4, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Pan said: Awesome! I’ll check this out but I’m sure you have won the ITYTD Blighted Moonbase challenge! If that’s the case then 50 dollars is coming your way. The main prize of 150 is still open. I hope you will also try for that! Simply got inspired by Ancalagon's UV only to try the light version. Your map in its present form is very CPU demanding. Some requirements as for a modern fps, lags out of nowhere and that's getting in the way of being effective what is important especially on UV. Here is two amusing extremes - either demolish all decorative jewelry and edit lines characteristics by yourself or buy appropriate hardware thing... Shameful moments, there are plenty of them. I would break the avjump record for this map with such a play. Surely not on UV. And that terrible piece in the hell hub. I did not even immediately realize that melee revs were hitting me! Volume was too low, there was no visible kickback and no bloodscreen, I stood still and continued to lose health until realized and heard the sound clearly. They hit with the palm on ITYTD, definately. I slipped full hp and blue armor. At least the ending looks smooth! 8 hours ago, Pan said: Player 177 exposed a critical weakness in the final boss area. Player 177 is a genius and found a way to totally circumvent a very dangerous final section. This makes the final boss fight very anti-climatic. I'm a perfectionist and Player 177 exposing this major flaw will cause me to lose sleep. Washed cyber's face with plasma :) 2 Share this post Link to post
KVELLER Posted September 4, 2018 I got a GTX 1050 Ti recently, so I thought I'd give this a try. It still runs like garbage, hovering between 20-30 fps most of the time, getting to 40 if I'm lucky. But it's probably just my $200 i5-7400 that's being a bottleneck here. Man, I knew I should've stopped being such a pleb and buy an i9 instead. 0 Share this post Link to post
Pan Posted September 4, 2018 57 minutes ago, KVELLER said: I got a GTX 1050 Ti recently, so I thought I'd give this a try. It still runs like garbage, hovering between 20-30 fps most of the time, getting to 40 if I'm lucky. But it's probably just my $200 i5-7400 that's being a bottleneck here. Man, I knew I should've stopped being such a pleb and buy an i9 instead. i9 must be the crucial difference. I get zero lag on 2 trialled laptops - both have i9 0 Share this post Link to post
therektafire Posted September 4, 2018 (edited) Ok so let me guess this straight, you took the time to make the final boss harder but you didn't take a little more time to do some very simple and easy fixes to make the map run better that don't even require modifying any actual level geometry or enemy placement (or well, at least not any accessible level geometry anyway)? Also yeah I noticed the map is suprisingly CPU heavy instead of GPU, looking in task manager I see it only takes up 8-12% GPU even on my potato laptop but the CPU is stuck at 100% constantly and it chugs along at less than 10 FPS when looking at the main level even in software on the lowest settings (on gzdoom), is GZDoom's draw call optimization really that bad, I hardly experienced any lag when punching in the beginning and waking up the monsters while looking away at the outside but when I get inside the actual maze it is always soooooo bad. edit: crap and it looks like the newest 64 bit version of gzdoom won't run on the other computer which I sometimes use to play wads and used to use to make maps on which has a slightly better cpu but an older GPU that only has opengl 3.1 and the minimum requirement is 3.3, and there is no 3.1 version for 64 bit, only 32 bit... ooofff. What was the last 64 bit version that supports opengl 3.1 so I can try it on this one edit2: yeah the better CPU definitely helps with this map, on software renderer @640x480 lowest settings i'm at least getting framerates that are somewhat playable. So maybe i'll try to do something with this map on here but can't make any guarantees Edited September 4, 2018 by therektafire 1 Share this post Link to post
Pan Posted September 4, 2018 18 minutes ago, therektafire said: Ok so let me guess this straight, you took the time to make the final boss harder but you didn't take a little more time to do some very simple and easy fixes to make the map run better that don't even require modifying any actual level geometry or enemy placement (or well, at least not any accessible level geometry anyway)? Also yeah I noticed the map is suprisingly CPU heavy instead of GPU, looking in task manager I see it only takes up 8-12% GPU even on my potato laptop but the CPU is stuck at 100% constantly and it chugs along at less than 10 FPS when looking at the main level even in software on the lowest settings (on gzdoom), is GZDoom's draw call optimization really that bad, I hardly experienced any lag when punching in the beginning and waking up the monsters while looking away at the outside but when I get inside the actual maze it is always soooooo bad. edit: crap and it looks like the newest 64 bit version of gzdoom won't run on the other computer which I sometimes use to play wads and used to use to make maps on which has a slightly better cpu but an older GPU that only has opengl 3.1 and the minimum requirement is 3.3, and there is no 3.1 version for 64 bit, only 32 bit... ooofff. What was the last 64 bit version that supports opengl 3.1 so I can try it on this one What are some easy optimisations that I can implement that don't change gameplay/monsters/geometry? 0 Share this post Link to post
Ancalagon Posted September 4, 2018 Deleting the million pools of blood decorations. 5 Share this post Link to post
therektafire Posted September 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, Pan said: What are some easy optimisations that I can implement that don't change gameplay/monsters/geometry? Making any walls that are higher than the player's head and that they are never supposed to reach 1 sided instead of 2 sided would be a good start. it was suggested several times before but you never listened. I imagine the blood is also a factor like @Ancalagon said but the fact that the game has to render basically the whole map at once is one of the main issues with it 2 Share this post Link to post
Pan Posted September 4, 2018 (edited) I can delete some of the blood if you think that'll make a difference. The only thing I changed with the boss fight was making a previously passable area un-passable. A very easy fix. I'm getting fatigued with dicking around and tweaking this map. I'll delete some of the blood and include a link for low-end spec PCs. The gameplay, monster count/placement and ammo/health/items will remain unchanged. 0 Share this post Link to post
Gaia74 Posted September 5, 2018 I thought about trying to overcome it but seeing the criticism I think that you use the money to make your maps interesting and that we play them, I do not say that this is wrong, everyone does what they want with their money, but honestly I was going to try it for that, the money, but I regretted it I remember why I play doom have fun Of course I enjoy playing difficult levels, but I think playing for money is exaggerating because although I sometimes lack money, I did not see it necessary to play for the money because I felt I could do better things than play and lose time, 2 hours of map is too much and dying in the end should be very frustrating So you decide whether to continue with this or not, but in my opinion I would say the same as others, better take more time and create better maps, and do not force people to play for money (even me that my mods are few played I do not reach that point) and remember doom is for fun :P 2 Share this post Link to post
KVELLER Posted September 5, 2018 2 hours ago, therektafire said: Making any walls that are higher than the player's head and that they are never supposed to reach 1 sided instead of 2 sided would be a good start. [...] the fact that the game has to render basically the whole map at once is one of the main issues with it 2 hours ago, Pan said: I can delete some of the blood if you think that'll make a difference. For god's sake, did you even read therektafire's post? Removing the blood decorations is going to help somewhat, but that's not the main issue here. 0 Share this post Link to post
Pan Posted September 5, 2018 Ok, I've removed thousands of blood sprites - Here's the 'slick willy' Blighted Moonbase for Commodore 64 players. Enjoy; http://www.mediafire.com/file/3clmgiaiw5kw8e5/Blighted_Moonbase_IV-_less_blood.wad/file Here's a video of me allowing myself to be surrounded by monsters. No lag after firing the first shot, and I'm using an i7 (not i9 as I incorrectly mentioned before). If my i7 crapbook can handle this map then there's no excuse. I suspect the lag complaints are avoidance tactics because this map is apparently very frustrating and no doubt humiliating to be defeated by, especially as the vast majority of the monsters are low-tier. This map forces a strategic and thoughtful approach and that might be annoying for those of you who are convinced that this map is for gimps. 0 Share this post Link to post
KVELLER Posted September 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Pan said: I suspect the lag complaints are avoidance tactics because this map is apparently very frustrating and no doubt humiliating to be defeated by, especially as the vast majority of the monsters are low-tier. This map forces a strategic and thoughtful approach and that might be annoying for those of you who are convinced that this map is for gimps. Sigh... Why do I even bother... Good luck on your future mapping endeavors. I'm outta here. 2 Share this post Link to post
Pan Posted September 5, 2018 1 minute ago, KVELLER said: Sigh... Why do I even bother... Good luck on your future mapping endeavors. I'm outta here. how to do you explain all my lag-free videos? Come on....give it a bash! (the prize is up to 200 AUD now)! Here's a tip. Watch Ancalagon and Player 177's play through. They take the only survivable route. Any other route will put you up against too many archviles and barons before you're equipped enough to deal with them. Once you've cleared out the bottom right hand corner of the maze then you can take different approaches to the future fights. But the first route is critical in establishing a safe area on the map. I think Player 177 found the last exploit in this map. All the holes have been filled now and, unless Ancalagon gets a second wind, the map might remain undefeated in its current state. Forever. 0 Share this post Link to post
Gaia74 Posted September 5, 2018 54 minutes ago, Pan said: Ok, I've removed thousands of blood sprites - Here's the 'slick willy' Blighted Moonbase for Commodore 64 players. Enjoy; http://www.mediafire.com/file/3clmgiaiw5kw8e5/Blighted_Moonbase_IV-_less_blood.wad/file Here's a video of me allowing myself to be surrounded by monsters. No lag after firing the first shot, and I'm using an i7 (not i9 as I incorrectly mentioned before). If my i7 crapbook can handle this map then there's no excuse. I suspect the lag complaints are avoidance tactics because this map is apparently very frustrating and no doubt humiliating to be defeated by, especially as the vast majority of the monsters are low-tier. This map forces a strategic and thoughtful approach and that might be annoying for those of you who are convinced that this map is for gimps. i7?, what, you say that an i7 is bad ?, God, you have not seen bad computers then 0 Share this post Link to post
Bryan T Posted September 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Pan said: how to do you explain all my lag-free videos? It's hard to tell if you're serious or not. How about this. Stand at the start, facing the bridge, open the console and type "vid_fps 1" and show the fps in the top corner. If you are hitting 60, I'll eat my shorts. I have a pretty decent computer (3.8ghz intel 4th gen, 650ti boost) and I'm pulling 24fps with all eye candy turned off on gzdoom 3.5.0. And yes, I just downloaded the new version for my apparent "commodore 64" machine. 2 Share this post Link to post
Bdubzzz Posted September 5, 2018 This guy hasn't even played his map on UV so any video of lag free gameplay is a meme :) 7 Share this post Link to post
wintertowns Posted September 5, 2018 (edited) It seems to me like one of the main reasons for the irritation in this thread is how Pan's attitude differs from other aspiring mappers of the same, somewhat unexperienced level. I've noticed that most people who post in the wads forum are VERY humble when it comes to responding to critique. Pan is somewhat deflecting even the most reasonable advice that maybe could make his level better, and by that making playing Doom more enjoyable for everyone trying out the map. It doesn't necessarily have to do with the challenge and the money, but it certainly does not help the issue. Maybe this thread is better suited for another part of the forum, like Doom Speed Demos or Everything Else, as Pan seems to be more interested in the challenge itself and what it represents, not the map, or his own mapping abilities. Edited September 5, 2018 by wintertowns 2 Share this post Link to post
therektafire Posted September 5, 2018 Nah what it is is he probably just wants to brag to his friends and be like "OMGOMG look I made this s00per hard map that not even the most mlg of d00mgOdz can beat!!!" while simultaneously never bothering to mention that the reason why no one beat it is either A) their computer can't run it because it is built so poorly or B) it might not even be possible on UV which is definitely a possibility given how averse Pan seems to be to testing and optimizing his own maps. I'm not saying it certainly isn't, but the probability is non-trivial. I tried a few times earlier and didn't make it particularly far since I was trying to be very conservative on ammo which I suspect is a must for this map to even be finished at all on that difficulty if Pan's ammo placing skills are as good as his map design ones... @Ancalagon what was the ammo amount like in your ITYTD playthrough? 1 Share this post Link to post
GarrettChan Posted September 5, 2018 I somehow feel that my i5 got insulted by a really bad map. 3 Share this post Link to post
Pan Posted September 5, 2018 56 minutes ago, therektafire said: Nah what it is is he probably just wants to brag to his friends and be like "OMGOMG look I made this s00per hard map that not even the most mlg of d00mgOdz can beat!!!" while simultaneously never bothering to mention that the reason why no one beat it is either A) their computer can't run it because it is built so poorly or B) it might not even be possible on UV which is definitely a possibility given how averse Pan seems to be to testing and optimizing his own maps. I'm not saying it certainly isn't, but the probability is non-trivial. I tried a few times earlier and didn't make it particularly far since I was trying to be very conservative on ammo which I suspect is a must for this map to even be finished at all on that difficulty if Pan's ammo placing skills are as good as his map design ones... @Ancalagon what was the ammo amount like in your ITYTD playthrough? Ancalagon played on UV and finished the map, but was unfortunately over 2 hours because of a dead cacolantern blocking a potion. Ancalagon proves that the map can be beaten. Player 177, who never has trouble finding items, finished the map on ITYTD in under 2 hours and proves the item requirement isn’t too taxing if you know where they are. 0 Share this post Link to post
Guest Unregistered account Posted September 5, 2018 (edited) Hey, @Pan, I think all you'd have to do to make this map run smoothly for lower-spec players is to select all the sectors that players won't ever walk on (basically any walls), and delete them. This will make them black/transparent in the editor. The only thing you'd have to do then is replace their textures since they'll get deleted too. (If you don't want to delete them, raising them up so that they're touching the sky ceiling will have the same effect) This is also why closed-in corridor maps run better, since players' visibility is blocked by the walls and their computers don't have to show tons of stuff. However, if a wall has space above it, the game doesn't know not to hide the stuff behind it, which is why your map seems to run slowly. Doing the method I suggest will let the BSP process work better when you save your map. The only thing you have to do then is go through and replace textures on the walls. Quote All this said, I don't think it's really a good excuse to try and downplay genuine concerns with the framerate by compensating for it with a monster (or even just present day) rig, if it's not visually complex enough to warrant it ("If it looks worse than the original Doom, it should be able to run better than the original Doom" is the rule I apply to my maps). But since you are a new mapper, I think it's just something you'll learn along the way. Edited September 5, 2018 by Unregistered account 0 Share this post Link to post
Pan Posted September 5, 2018 11 minutes ago, Kapanyo said: Hey, @Pan, I think all you'd have to do to make this map run smoothly for lower-spec players is to select all the sectors that players won't ever walk on (basically any walls), and delete them. This will make them black/transparent in the editor. The only thing you'd have to do then is replace their textures since they'll get deleted too. (If you don't want to delete them, raising them up so that they're touching the sky ceiling will have the same effect) This is also why closed-in corridor maps run better, since players' visibility is blocked by the walls and their computers don't have to show tons of stuff. However, if a wall has space above it, the game doesn't know not to hide the stuff behind it, which is why your map seems to run slowly. Doing the method I suggest will let the BSP process work better when you save your map. The only thing you have to do then is go through and replace textures on the walls. Ok this sounds feasible but it’ll be time consuming. I’ll work on it and release a slick willy 2. The competition will remain open in the meantime 0 Share this post Link to post
Dragonfly Posted September 5, 2018 6 hours ago, Pan said: i7 crapbook lmfao what a privileged life you live. 6 Share this post Link to post
therektafire Posted September 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, Dragonfly said: lmfao what a privileged life you live. Yeah calling an i7 bad -_-. Try playing with an intel Celeron n4000 and intel HD 600 GPU and see how fun and lag free it is. There are a lot more potato players in Doom than you might imagine, probably because under *normal* circumstances it isn't exactly a particularly taxing game while at the same time it is still fun which makes it very appealing to people with weaker PCs and laptops. 3 Share this post Link to post
leodoom85 Posted September 5, 2018 i7 crapbook? I'm out. Bye. See you not soon. 3 Share this post Link to post
Archi Posted September 5, 2018 Sure low fps adds to a challenge. My PC can handle Doom (2016) at 60 fps on high btw. 3 Share this post Link to post
Pan Posted September 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Kapanyo said: Hey, @Pan, I think all you'd have to do to make this map run smoothly for lower-spec players is to select all the sectors that players won't ever walk on (basically any walls), and delete them. This will make them black/transparent in the editor. The only thing you'd have to do then is replace their textures since they'll get deleted too. (If you don't want to delete them, raising them up so that they're touching the sky ceiling will have the same effect) This is also why closed-in corridor maps run better, since players' visibility is blocked by the walls and their computers don't have to show tons of stuff. However, if a wall has space above it, the game doesn't know not to hide the stuff behind it, which is why your map seems to run slowly. Doing the method I suggest will let the BSP process work better when you save your map. The only thing you have to do then is go through and replace textures on the walls. I tried deleting the sectors in between walls in the maze. It doesn’t appear to effect the frps. It also massively changes the gameplay of the map because the cacodemons are unable to float above the maze if all the inside wall sectors are deleted, creating loads of invisible walls above the maze. Im done making changes to this map unless there are easy optimisation fixes that don’t massively alter the gameplay. I guess Ancalagon is our only hope for defeating this cursed map. ive taken the lessons here and I’m applying it to a new map I’m working on. This competition will stay open and I’ll keep an eye on any useful and easy to implement suggestions for a better-optimised map. 0 Share this post Link to post
Ancalagon Posted September 5, 2018 3 hours ago, Pan said: Im done making changes to this map unless there are easy optimisation fixes that don’t massively alter the gameplay. I guess Ancalagon is our only hope for defeating this cursed map. You don't need to do the change to all the walls in the map, just leave a path for the cacos over the walls, it's not like the player will be anywhere around the viles area when the cacos arrive. And don't get your hopes too high as for doing the previous video I had to borrow a powerful computer for a few hours and I can't do that every day. 11 Share this post Link to post
Guest Unregistered account Posted September 5, 2018 Yeah, just splitting off different "areas"' walls instead of all of them should suffice. I've gotta say, I'm still floored that there exists a map that looks like a Vanilla WAD yet brings normal systems to their knees. 0 Share this post Link to post