Is it a problem that programming languages have terms like "master" and "slave"?

[chungy]

We should probably abolish using "far-right" in any non-satirical contexts, given that it's come to where everyone to the right of Stalin is being labeled as such.

[dew]

10 minutes ago, chungy said:

We should probably abolish using "far-right" in any non-satirical contexts, given that it's come to where everyone to the right of Stalin is being labeled as such.

So we should limit freedom of speech, because the left uses it to paint "concerned citizens" as having right-wing opinions in order to limit freedom of speech. Because they love that Stalin guy so much, he was just pure.

 

I'll be honest, I just gotta call Poe. I don't see how that post could apply in any shape or form without a massive dose of self-own.

[Bauul]

@Xcalibur  I personally think it is an over-reaction to change the terminology, but after wading through 3 pages of your tin-foil-hat "muh liburtees" the-evil-leftists-are-coming-for-us-all nonsense, I want this change to happen purely so it'll piss you off more.

 

At the end of the day, this change is driven by wholesome reasons: trying to be nicer to your fellow human being.  I don't think it's necessary, but I can't angry at them for doing it.

[Dragonfly]

Lmao this thread turned into more of a dumpster fire than I ever imagined. Good going chaps

[Megalyth]

If there's no new standard yet, then the sky is the limit. Eventually something will stick and become widely or universally recognized. A few suggestions:

 

Chicken/Egg

Hail/Windshield

Hammer/Nail

Ant/Boot

Vogon Poetry/Prisoner

 

This can be fun instead of political.

[Edward850]

1 hour ago, Linguica said:

Call them "dom" and "sub" ywia

I'm unironically stealing this idea for any network projects that suit.

[wallabra]

The changes that are currently being done to the terminology in Python are not Social Justice ideology; in fact, it's no ideology at all. And, just to kill the irony, replacing the master-slave terminology is not forcing the usage of alternatives; it's not slaving the words master and slave.

 

Also, it's a few words. There will be little to no effect at all if they change; it's all their matter, not ours. Why even give a shit? Certain people think it's a subtle way for family friendly, political correct activists (or whatever so-called "antagonists" in this story) to "battle" against free speech. Certain things are better just left so they figure things out themselves – like Guido van Rossum himself did when he left the cargo of Dictator For Life –, so they happen naturally.

 

However, when there are politically correct restrictions, there are issues. Fortunately not in this case, but, in my opinion, the moral integrity of the people should not be factors in the media politics' equations. There is a target audience, and that's it — any consequences outside that range shall be dismissed. I can make an adult TV show, but if a kid gets offended by it because it criticizes one of their favorite trademarks (like, you know, Minecraft), we should 'tell' him "it's not meant for him anyway".

 

Feel free to ignore me, though, just due to the completely irrelevant fact I believe the population doesn't know how to vote and thus shouldn't vote. But keep in mind I won't impose my opinions (I'm not that arrogant), and that if people will completely ignore any of my beliefs just due to one of them, they are missing on a lot of reasonable ones as well. Never judge a book by its cover.

[Flesh420]

The only people who would have a problem with such terminology haven't experienced a single hard day in their life, other than being "Triggered."  Those same people will complain about white privilege, and most if not all, will, in fact, be white.  The white racist types that are too dumb to see just how racist they actually are.  I highly doubt black programmers give a shit about two words, especially with all the money (so much money they're oppressed by thick stacks) they're making.

 

It'll be a world darker than the Dark Ages if those momo's ever gain control.  Luckily, once they start the civil war they'll know not what to do when bullets are coming back at them.  They will just run to their safe rooms and kittens, and all that spectacularly stupid shit.

[kb1]

Totally opposed to changing these, or any other such terms.

When a baby cries out of discomfort, the appropriate response is to cater to them.

When a baby cries as a means to an end, the appropriate response is tough love.

 

It not about what people say, it's about what they think. And, you're not going to change the way people think, by changing their language.

[Percival232]

Short answer: No

Long Answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo also this seems like being offended for people who prolly didnt care about this to begin with

 

 

Change it really dont care. It at least is changing because they want people to be nicer, not because people are claiming bullshit

 

 

[Marcaek]

this thread is the best honeypot ever

[geo]

I'm offended people are so intolerant of words. Perhaps they don't want it messing with their Google searches? What's that? Python language is a slave trading ring or a dating website?

[Xcalibur]

6 hours ago, Bauul said:

@Xcalibur  I personally think it is an over-reaction to change the terminology, but after wading through 3 pages of your tin-foil-hat "muh liburtees" the-evil-leftists-are-coming-for-us-all nonsense, I want this change to happen purely so it'll piss you off more.

 

At the end of the day, this change is driven by wholesome reasons: trying to be nicer to your fellow human being.  I don't think it's necessary, but I can't angry at them for doing it.

there's nothing far-fetched about any points I've made. this is part of a larger pattern, and issues like this tend to be the tip of the wedge of ideological control.

 

to make myself clear, they can make any decision they want for their product. I find changing the master/slave terms absurd, but I wouldn't complain if it was of their own volition. However, both the article and many other observations support the possibility that this is an example of the creep of moral authoritarianism. likewise, if they changed the terms to plantation owner/n1gger, I would find that ridiculous and disagreeable, but I wouldn't try to dictate what they do with their own product. However, if there was evidence that a white supremacist group manipulated/coerced them into this in order to further impose their ideology onto others, I would complain about that too. I'm opposed to moralizing in general; whether it's this, or banning Doom for being a violent game because that's supposedly the right thing to do.

 

At what point was I pissed off? I've been calm and collected throughout this discussion. It's other participants here who are getting belligerent and attacking me unprovoked, simply because I'm expressing ideas that they disagree with.

[Xcalibur]

8 hours ago, fraggle said:

The people making the change are Victor Stinner, a core CPython dev since 2010, and Guido van Rossum, the inventor of Python. I think it's fair to say that they have enough technical ability. Sorry that it doesn't fit the narrative you want to push :(

I would like to point out that the devs probably did not do this of their own accord. It was most likely fanatical adherents to the Social Justice ideology (who probably do not know coding, or even radices for that matter) who pulled strings to compel them to do this. At least, this scenario fits the available evidence.

[printz]

Well, I feel that software deserves more than to be slaves and masters. Every piece of the system deserves to have the initiative when needed.

[Captain red pants]

56 minutes ago, Xcalibur said:

Social Justice ideology

Just so we're all on the same page here, maybe it would be a good idea to explain what you mean by Social Justice ideology

[Doomkid]

imagine if people cared this much about issues that are actually substantive 

 

Look, if these guys were really pressured big time against their wishes into changing these terms, that’d be one thing but it seems more like they just said “these terms are kinda dated, maybe let’s change them?”. If there was some important concept or idea being censored here I’d be singing a different tune - I hate to see even the dumbest ideas forcibly hidden since the best way to dismantle them is to leave them out in the open - but that isn’t at all what’s going on here. At least not as far as I can tell.

 

Gonna play the stupid dichotomy game for a moment: the right likes to frame eeeeevery issue this way since it feeds into their persecution complex. Yeah yeah it’s a blanket statement, blah blah blah, but good lord you see it constantly these days

[seed]

10 hours ago, Dragonfly said:

Lmao this thread turned into more of a dumpster fire than I ever imagined. Good going chaps

 

Was it not predictable mate?

 

Also, over 100 replies in less than 24 hours. That's quite an achievement.

[Archvile Hunter]

Honestly, I just find it kinda funny, nothing to get upset about.

[BLλZING_DUST]

Does it really matter THAT much to the point of getting upset over two terms in a programming language? Why are people's emotions so fragile nowadays?

[Avoozl]

Well people in the BDSM scene certainly wouldn't find a problem with these terms.

[Nine Inch Heels]

5 hours ago, Xcalibur said:

but I wouldn't complain if it was of their own volition.

Then why are you complaining? The article explains full well that the question if those terms should be changed or not has been around for some time, which means it's not just some SJW agenda that has come up recently.

 

Quote

Like other open source communities, Python's minders have been asked whether they really want to continue using the terms "master" and "slave" to describe technical operations and relationships, given that the words remind some people of America's peculiar institution, a historical legacy that fires political passions to this day.

 

Last week Victor Stinner, a Python developer who works for Red Hat, published four pull requests seeking to change "master" and "slave" in Python documentation and code to terms like "parent," "worker," or something similarly anodyne.

 

T h e y   h a v e   b e e n   a s k e d. Do you know what the term "asked" means?

 

Also there have been requests that were published. P u b l i s h e d. Do you know what published means? It means these pull requests were readable for everybody who's been interested, including the three cry-hards that you think support your nonsensical POV. The topic was discussed properly, by the way: https://bugs.python.org/issue34605

 

Plus, if you even cared to read the site the article linked to, you'd also have noticed that the terms master and slave won't be removed from all python versions, AND the term master for example will still see use where it is the most descriptive term for clarity's sake. That being said, your points are invalid, and it's time you simply accepted that fact.

 

When a news outlet on the web does some shit stirring by giving you three coders who have an issue with the fact that they weren't involved with the decision that was made, then it doesn't mean it's in any way shape or form relevant, other than for shit stirring's sake.

 

Talk about changing these terms has been around for a long time:
 

Quote

The Redis community wrestled with this last year. In 2014, Drupal, after some argument, swapped the terms "master" and "slave" for "primary" and "replica." The same year, Django traded "master" and "slave" for "leader" and "follower." CouchDB carried out a similar linguistic purge, also in 2014.

The debate goes back further still in the tech industry. In 2003, the County of Los Angeles briefly directed electronics makers doing business with the county to remove or change terms used in the identification or labeling of equipment or components that could be interpreted as discriminatory or offensive, such as "master" and "slave."

The way this looks to me, you had plenty opportunities to be on the fence about stuff like this. So, what were you doing in 2017, 2014, or 2003?

 

I don't believe you for a nanosecond you'd be just as "upset" about this if instead of SJWs you could interpret some conservative agenda into anything.

[leodoom85]

I can't believe that these 2 words, which I discovered it when I installed some DVD drives in a PC, cause this stupid controversy.....sigh

[an_mutt]

20 hours ago, Gez said:

Manager and worker

 

 

[Spectre.Charles]

Replace master with mistress and now I pop a boner every time I use Python and everyone is happy.

[dew]

12 hours ago, Flesh420 said:

It'll be a world darker than the Dark Ages if those momo's ever gain control.  Luckily, once they start the civil war they'll know not what to do when bullets are coming back at them.  They will just run to their safe rooms and kittens, and all that spectacularly stupid shit. 

Let me guess, you were polishing your gun while typing this. And it discharged when you imagined killing all the stupid leftist girly types.

[Quasar]

They should change it to CEO and worker. The disparity is a billion times (literally in many cases) larger than that which historically existed between slaves and their owners in most historical settings. One class wields all the political power and the rest of us are just so much chattel. The illusion of cooperation in their evil system being optional is the only reason people don't feel a similar moral objection to the present-day economic system as they do to historical slavery. Meanwhile workers at Amazon (a trillion dollar company) have to piss in jars, and are fired at the whims of an AI.

[fraggle]

9 hours ago, Xcalibur said:

I would like to point out that the devs probably did not do this of their own accord. It was most likely fanatical adherents to the Social Justice ideology (who probably do not know coding, or even radices for that matter) who pulled strings to compel them to do this. At least, this scenario fits the available evidence.

What evidence is that? Because as far as I can tell you literally just invented some imaginary people to explain ... what, exactly? Is it because you can't believe that programmers would be supportive of social justice efforts? Because my experience is that nothing could be farther from the truth.

[Xcalibur]

7 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Then why are you complaining? The article explains full well that the question if those terms should be changed or not has been around for some time, which means it's not just some SJW agenda that has come up recently.

Leftist political correctness has also been around for sometime. But it's only recently that the change was made, and this coincides with a rise of leftist radicalism. This seems like more than a coincidence.

 

7 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

T h e y   h a v e   b e e n   a s k e d. Do you know what the term "asked" means?

 

Also there have been requests that were published. P u b l i s h e d. Do you know what published means? It means these pull requests were readable for everybody who's been interested, including the three cry-hards that you think support your nonsensical POV. The topic was discussed properly, by the way: https://bugs.python.org/issue34605

do you know what the word 'condescending' means? Because that's how you're coming across here.

 

That link only helps prove my point. It indicates that the complaints were private, and the community objects to changes being made by way of an opaque process. The community also seems to disagree with the decision in general. This supports the notion that this change was made due to manipulation/coercion by an external faction with an agenda.

 

3 hours ago, fraggle said:

What evidence is that? Because as far as I can tell you literally just invented some imaginary people to explain ... what, exactly? Is it because you can't believe that programmers would be supportive of social justice efforts? Because my experience is that nothing could be farther from the truth.

I've gone over this, including in this post. And those people are far from imaginary, there are numerous other examples of this.

[Xcalibur]

12 hours ago, Captain red pants said:

Just so we're all on the same page here, maybe it would be a good idea to explain what you mean by Social Justice ideology

Social Justice fetishizes oppressed and marginalized groups. They are constantly concerned with minority representation, diversity, affirmative action, and compensation for perceived wrongs and imbalances in society. They castigate straight, white, cisgender males for their power and privilege, while rewarding anyone who is black, muslim, transgender, etc. This doesn't sound so bad until you realize the kind of extremes they take this too. Adherents of Social Justice, commonly referred to as SJWs (Social Justice Warriors) are essentially 'minority supremacists' who treat oppressed groups as a 'master race' and regard straight white males as subhuman. They perpetuate their ideology through propaganda, censorship, hijacking positions of power and influence, and cultural vandalism. They invariably accuse their critics of being racist, homophobic, transphobic, islamophobic bigots, fascists, and nazis. They also like to falsely accuse their critics of harassing them, even as they resort to harassment and violence.

 

The issue of changing 'master/slave' terminology seems petty and minor, until you realize how it plays into a much larger agenda of ideological control.