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bigbossbalrog

Thoughts on Human Allies?

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22 hours ago, Doge Sword said:

I think they would have to be bad because they wouldn't have Doomguy's superpowers.

I'd disagree. Doomguy is not badass because he has superpowers. In fact, in Doom 16 multiplayer his appearance isn't similar to demon rune or any kind of powerup, he is just a skin for player.
Doomguy is badass because He Is the Player.

 

1 hour ago, ATP2555 said:

People are fine with Wolfenstein and Quake (IV) having friendly NPCs, but when the idea of Doom doing it comes to mind, it's a crime.

 

Wolf3D was the only game by iD. The rest of them was outsourced to other studios, that were free to implement any modern BS if it provides market success.

Same was with Quake IV. Moreover, it's more sort of "Quake of Fortune", rather than a proper Quake. Hereby this franchise is fine without allied NPCs as well as Doom.

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1 hour ago, Boilers! said:

I'd disagree. Doomguy is not badass because he has superpowers. In fact, in Doom 16 multiplayer his appearance isn't similar to demon rune or any kind of powerup, he is just a skin for player.
Doomguy is badass because He Is the Player.

In the movie it shows Doomguy getting injected with something that either kills people or gives them superpowers.  If you don't believe in the movie then think about this:

Can a normal person run 50 mph?

Can a normal person survive getting shot by a shotgun?

 

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28 minutes ago, Doge Sword said:

Can a normal person run 50 mph?

Can a normal person survive getting shot by a shotgun? 

Just a game mechanic, that's not specific to Him. It didn't matter, whether it's Doomguy or another skin. The same as with multiple lives, like stated by Hugo, when you can just take green floating helmet of additional life as is, because it's a game.

28 minutes ago, Doge Sword said:

If you don't believe in the movie

Thanks, I wön't take the movie seriously. It's the worst thing. It's just something, that's better be either forgotten or used as example of how things should never be done.

Edited by Boilers!

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1 hour ago, TakenStew22 said:

You're Doomguy. You don't need allies to fight along side you because YOU are the demons kryptonite. Friendly marines would just slow down the action IMO.

That depends on which Doomguy we're talking about: Classic Doomguy, Doom3guy, or Doom Slayer. The second one was mostly in the dark and had sentry bots to help him which kept the action going.

32 minutes ago, Boilers! said:

Wolf3D was the only game by iD. The rest of them was outsourced to other studios, that were free to implement any modern BS if it provides market success.

Same was with Quake IV. Moreover, it's more sort of "Quake of Fortune", rather than a proper Quake. Hereby this franchise is fine without allied NPCs as well as Doom.

Since technology has come a long way, it's become easier to code AI. Doom doesn't have to be the same "run around and kill demons" game, it can have friendly NPCs if the developers so desire. They don't necessarily have to be in combat either(which was the case in Doom 3 with human NPCs).

 

But hey, if you wanna live in the past, I have no problem with that.

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4 hours ago, TakenStew22 said:

You're Doomguy. You don't need allies to fight along side you because YOU are the demons kryptonite. Friendly marines would just slow down the action IMO.

Marines maybe but what about Knight Sentinels?

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On 9/15/2018 at 12:07 AM, Solmyr said:

They're fine as long as they are incompetent meat shields, so bad, they make Doomslayer look even more awesome by comparison.

 

But you see, the problem with that is it doesn't make one look more badass or skilled at its job.

 

Would you consider yourself good at something if you compare yourself with incompetent fools, thus holding yourself at very low/subpar standards? I suppose not.

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14 hours ago, ATP2555 said:

Since technology has come a long way, it's become easier to code AI. Doom doesn't have to be the same "run around and kill demons" game, it can have friendly NPCs if the developers so desire. They don't necessarily have to be in combat either(which was the case in Doom 3 with human NPCs).

 

It's not about how much advanced an AI is, it's about how to effectively use them, If they're used in a similar fashion to Doom 3 then that'll probably be a good idea, but if they constantly block your shots and don't offer anything fun or improve anything from a gameplay perspective then it's probably best to keep their usage at the minimum, Firstperson shooters rarely make good use of allied AI.

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13 hours ago, Duke of Pathoris said:

Marines maybe but what about Knight Sentinels?

They would be okay, I guess. But still, don't make them too powerful of an ally.

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7 hours ago, Agent6 said:

 

But you see, the problem with that is it doesn't make one look more badass or skilled at its job.

 

Would you consider yourself good at something if you compare yourself with incompetent fools, thus holding yourself at very low/subpar standards? I suppose not.

To answer your question, no i would not, i would consider myself good at something if i was skilled enough, not by comparing myself to others less skilled and less competent, but  that applies to real life. In fiction the level of competence of a very competent main character is boosted by making others look helpless and incompetent, (not overly incompetent as if they were clowns who kill themselves by slipping on a puddle of blood, and cracking their skulls while in full body armor), that doesn't hold Doomslayer in subpar level of competence, on the contrary, it makes Doomslayer look like mankind's last hope in the war against the forces of hell, it also makes hell look more like a human extinction level threat. 

Edited by Solmyr

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15 hours ago, Duke of Pathoris said:

Marines maybe but what about Knight Sentinels?


Weren't they wiped out?

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18 hours ago, Doge Sword said:

In the movie it shows Doomguy getting injected with something that either kills people or gives them superpowers. 

Has the new movie already been released? 

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18 hours ago, ATP2555 said:

Since technology has come a long way, it's become easier to code AI. Doom doesn't have to be the same "run around and kill demons" game, it can have friendly NPCs if the developers so desire. They don't necessarily have to be in combat either(which was the case in Doom 3 with human NPCs).

If it were a more cover-based game, I could see NPC friendlies work, but the new Doom series relies on "push-forward" combat and staying constantly mobile. I can see quite a few ways NPCs would be little more than annoying distractions that would add unnecessary frustrations.

 

And hey, Doom Eternal handles NPCs very well in that opening segment on Phobos, so it's definitely not "living in the past" (where OG Doom had exactly zero NPC friendlies of any kind).

 

People are fine with Wolfenstein and Quake (IV) having friendly NPCs, but when the idea of Doom doing it comes to mind, it's a crime.

It's fitting in Wolfenstein because it's set in some version of World War 2 and the main enemy is Human - it feels more natural to have AI friendlies in that setting because of that.

Quake IV was set in the Strogg universe and is about Humans invading an Alien planet, naturally, AI friendlies would make sense here as well.

 

Games like Doom and Quake 1 build a lot of their strength on the atmosphere brought about by the player being alone. NU Doom uses it to help emphasize the Doom Slayer's penchant for rage-fueled violence and making him into a one-man Force of Nature, whereas something like old Doom or Quake 1 uses it to great effect to make the game moodier and scarier (you're all alone - nobody around to help you or even to talk to). It's not about being old-fashioned, it's about evoking a particular mood and feeling that would be utterly lost if you had NPCs.

 

Besides, there are plenty of franchises out there that are heavy on NPC friendlies - lets not try to make every game franchise into the exact same thing, please.

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33 minutes ago, igg said:

Has the new movie already been released? 

No. I'm talking about the old one.

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5 hours ago, Solmyr said:

but  that applies to real life. In fiction the level of competence of a very competent main character is boosted by making others look helpless and incompetent, (not overly incompetent as if they were clowns who kill themselves by slipping on a puddle of blood, and cracking their skulls while in full body armor), that doesn't hold Doomslayer in subpar level of competence, on the contrary, it makes Doomslayer look like mankind's last hope in the war against the forces of hell, it also makes hell look more like a human extinction level threat. 

 

Eh, for me personally it's the same logic in video games. Being surrounded by hordes of moronic AI doesn't make me feel good at all, on the contrary it usually annoys me, but that depends on the nature of the game to be fair.

 

Friendly AI is pretty difficult to nail in shooters, they usually end up either doing your job, dragging you down, or being completely and utterly useless. I prefer the first over the last 2 variants any time, at least those 2 don't make me either ignore them completely or curse them for being retards :v . Always good to be surrounded by decent and relatively useful AI.

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3 hours ago, dsm said:

If it were a more cover-based game, I could see NPC friendlies work, but the new Doom series relies on "push-forward" combat and staying constantly mobile. I can see quite a few ways NPCs would be little more than annoying distractions that would add unnecessary frustrations.

Like in Halo? How marines would kill you with grenades? Or drive off of cliffs in Warthogs? Or shoot at dead bodies? I agree with you on friendly AI in some games being like that. Simplified AI programming can always be a buzzkill.

 

In the Doom Eternal demo where they show Phobos, you can see anti-air turrets firing plasma shots at some Cacodemons (we even see one getting hit). I'm sure those are scripted setpieces, but what if those turrets had AI and actively fired at demons? You might accidentally get hit by some plasma "flak".

 

3 hours ago, dsm said:

It's fitting in Wolfenstein because it's set in some version of World War 2 and the main enemy is Human - it feels more natural to have AI friendlies in that setting because of that.

Quake IV was set in the Strogg universe and is about Humans invading an Alien planet, naturally, AI friendlies would make sense here as well.

And Doom Eternal is set on Earth (and later Phobos), where the homeworld of humanity is under attack by demons. Unless all of Earth's armed forces were overrun, AI friendlies should make sense here to.

 

3 hours ago, dsm said:

Games like Doom and Quake 1 build a lot of their strength on the atmosphere brought about by the player being alone. NU Doom uses it to help emphasize the Doom Slayer's penchant for rage-fueled violence and making him into a one-man Force of Nature, whereas something like old Doom or Quake 1 uses it to great effect to make the game moodier and scarier (you're all alone - nobody around to help you or even to talk to). It's not about being old-fashioned, it's about evoking a particular mood and feeling that would be utterly lost if you had NPCs.

In Quake IV, some of the levels (particularly the ones after Kane is Stroggified) have you completely alone (though you could hear other marines on the radio). In the later stages of Doom 3, you were all alone (with the exception of some scientists). Sergeant Kelly stops talking too you (you eventually find out why), and Swann and Campbell are acting in their own agenda so they want nothing to do with you. In Doom 2016, when you go to Hell, you're alone (the Night Sentinel spirits don't count).

 

4 hours ago, dsm said:

Besides, there are plenty of franchises out there that are heavy on NPC friendlies - lets not try to make every game franchise into the exact same thing, please.

And at the same time, lets not make every game in a certain franchise have the same type of gameplay. We already have a franchise for that, its called Call Of Duty.

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I like to see some resistance human forces at some points, maybe assist the DOOM guy or on the contrary..until completely slaughtered by demons.

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Put the meat shields next to the explosive red barrels where they belong. 

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17 hours ago, ATP2555 said:

Like in Halo? How marines would kill you with grenades? Or drive off of cliffs in Warthogs? Or shoot at dead bodies? I agree with you on friendly AI in some games being like that. Simplified AI programming can always be a buzzkill.

Well, you said it yourself earlier: AI design has come a long way since.



And Doom Eternal is set on Earth (and later Phobos), where the homeworld of humanity is under attack by demons. Unless all of Earth's armed forces were overrun, AI friendlies should make sense here to.

Again, you said it yourself. The stakes feel higher if all effective resistance except the player has been nullified. You got people running around offering effective resistance, the demons suddenly end up feeling like less of an unstoppable threat.



In Quake IV, some of the levels (particularly the ones after Kane is Stroggified) have you completely alone (though you could hear other marines on the radio). In the later stages of Doom 3, you were all alone (with the exception of some scientists). Sergeant Kelly stops talking too you (you eventually find out why), and Swann and Campbell are acting in their own agenda so they want nothing to do with you. In Doom 2016, when you go to Hell, you're alone (the Night Sentinel spirits don't count).

Yeah, there are sections in those games where you're completely alone - it doesn't result in the same feeling of prolonged loneliness you get from playing old Doom or Quake 1. Quake 1 has an even more pronounced sense of loneliness than Doom because Doom at least had corpses of your fallen friends lying around, whereas in Quake, it's like "friends" have never even existed in the first place.

Doom 2016 does not capture the same loneliness of OG Doom, because you have Samuel Hayden and VEGA having conversations with you and that's fine, because it didn't need to feel the same, but it works because the only fully Human person left is the antagonist.



And at the same time, lets not make every game in a certain franchise have the same type of gameplay. We already have a franchise for that, its called Call Of Duty.

Indeed, which is why it's such a good thing that we have Doom 3, Doom 2016 and now Doom Eternal all of which have NPCs. Doom 3 even have AI friendlies in the form of sentry bots (which is the better solution, because it makes them tankier without feeling off and allows the player to make mistakes that doesn't hugely impact the player's feeling of competency), so Doom has already evaded the CoD trap long ago.

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Who here remembers the dark servant from HeXen? It was very powerful but very rare and only lasted 30 seconds. How about somehow summoning a Knight Sentinel that fights for you for like 30 seconds before disappearing back to non-existence. 

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10 hours ago, Duke of Pathoris said:

How about somehow summoning a Knight Sentinel that fights for you for like 30 seconds before disappearing back to non-existence. 

 

I think I like this idea.

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On 9/17/2018 at 11:03 AM, dsm said:

Well, you said it yourself earlier: AI design has come a long way since.

 

 

Again, you said it yourself. The stakes feel higher if all effective resistance except the player has been nullified. You got people running around offering effective resistance, the demons suddenly end up feeling like less of an unstoppable threat.

 

 

Yeah, there are sections in those games where you're completely alone - it doesn't result in the same feeling of prolonged loneliness you get from playing old Doom or Quake 1. Quake 1 has an even more pronounced sense of loneliness than Doom because Doom at least had corpses of your fallen friends lying around, whereas in Quake, it's like "friends" have never even existed in the first place.

Doom 2016 does not capture the same loneliness of OG Doom, because you have Samuel Hayden and VEGA having conversations with you and that's fine, because it didn't need to feel the same, but it works because the only fully Human person left is the antagonist.

 

 

Indeed, which is why it's such a good thing that we have Doom 3, Doom 2016 and now Doom Eternal all of which have NPCs. Doom 3 even have AI friendlies in the form of sentry bots (which is the better solution, because it makes them tankier without feeling off and allows the player to make mistakes that doesn't hugely impact the player's feeling of competency), so Doom has already evaded the CoD trap long ago.

The thing is, using the same "lone survivor" element (which is what the Classic Doom and Quake 1 used) can get rather old (as with the Useless Allies trope I mentioned previously). Seeing how they're gonna be focusing on Doom's lore in Eternal, I think it's safe to assume that John Carmack's quote, "Story in a game is like story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important." is, for a lack of a better word, outdated, so they might give a story-related reason for the rest of humanity fighting off the demons rather than "everyone else got slaughtered".

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It doesn't have to be a continuous gameplay feature throughout the entire campaign. It would be cool if somewhere along the line the Doom Slayer encounters a squad of humans who are mopping up a few hell forces and he gets stuck with them for a little bit, they run down a few hallways and get to a big ass door that they have to wait for to open, and on the other side are a couple of Barons that come charging in and kill the troops in the first few seconds. Just a one-off event like that that's enough to leave an impression on the player and not really do anything to gameplay.

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Say the counteroffensive collapsed. You get pockets of soldiers in random places. Most are dead but some are alive.These men are desperate and hold their position because they're surrounded. Usually they die but if you kill demons fast enough they can survive an encounter. They'll give their thanks and maybe some ammo or health but won't leave the arena since moving forward is even more dangerous than holding for reinforcement. They'd tote heavy assault rifles and fire hitscan shots dealing no damage to the player in case you get in front of them.

 

I agree that there should be no great "offensive" scene the player DIRECTLY participates in a la BD64's intro. They'd just get in the way.

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What if they had it where other humans can actively be turned into zombies/possessed? The codex entry for the Summoner stated that her Argent wave attack can turn an occassional victim into a possessed.

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On 9/15/2018 at 3:13 PM, Doge Sword said:

In the movie it shows Doomguy getting injected with something that either kills people or gives them superpowers.  If you don't believe in the movie then think about this:

Can a normal person run 50 mph?

Can a normal person survive getting shot by a shotgun?

 

If we are going to consider the Doom movie as canon, then we actually aren't fighting the forces of Hell and instead all the demons are actually just science experiments gone wrong from DNA modification.

 

As for NPC allies in Doom, they aren't needed. They would ruin the flow of combat.

I can see a couple scripted sequences where you fight alongside some weak little marines that get killed off from single fireballs or a boss fight where sentinels help you kill a boss or something, but otherwise NPC allies don't really need to exist in combat.

Human allies, however, yes please. Gimme dat coop

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15 hours ago, ATP2555 said:

What if they had it where other humans can actively be turned into zombies/possessed? The codex entry for the Summoner stated that her Argent wave attack can turn an occassional victim into a possessed.

This. Have the "regular" UAC grunts be wearing tan armor and no helmets or at least lightweight (non full faced) ones so they have as much a resemblance to the possessed as possible. If a grunt is hit by an Argent attack from a Summoner or Arch-Vile, instead of dying, they become a standard Possessed. To this end, most grunts would be armed with either plasma rifles or whatever other weapons the possessed would get in Doom Eternal; these would be cheaper, "second-line"/reserve weapons compared to the more powerful, classic-styled plasma rifle the player uses, and so fire those red bolts at a slower rate.

 

UAC grunts would be somewhat rare throughout the game. Most of the time they'd be either dead or in "safe" situations (like the UAC base sequence in the trailer). If you see them in combat, they're usually massively outmatched and about to die (I imagine somehow saving them would be a good challenge/achievement/way of getting some unique dialogue), or in rather equal combat in minor situations with Imps and possessed. They'd be very similar to basic possessed soldiers in terms of ability, but would run and react faster (plus would be animated to look less uncoordinated and zombielike) in return for less HP.

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21 hours ago, wheresthebeef said:

If we are going to consider the Doom movie as canon, then we actually aren't fighting the forces of Hell and instead all the demons are actually just science experiments gone wrong from DNA modification.

Can't demons use their powers to make science experiments "go wrong" on their behalf?  >:)

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Seeing as you're much, much more powerful, and the other humans in that game play you actually come into contact with seem more scared of you than anything, I think it's fine, and fitting. Doesn't bother me. 

 

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