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Gabenslair

What are your think are the worst aspects that can be in a doom level?

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21 minutes ago, mrthejoshmon said:

"Isn't that just confident design though?" I'd say there is a fine line that is (still very noticeable) between confidence and arrogance. Confidence is having faith in your design but arrogance is the exaltation of your design. If you are confident you are willing to further alter it to make it better, more enjoyable because you want that, you want to make good things, if you are arrogant then you dismiss grievances because "that's my style" or "you're just not good enough to handle (insert obscene shit here)" or better yet you then make the grievances worse because you're that much of an insufferable dick ("that's my style XdDDD") and you truly believe what you've made is good and cannot be better and it is everyone else who is wrong.

Let's not forget that some people simply do not enjoy/come to terms with some types of maps, most noteable examples would be "slaughter" and "challenge" maps. It's not unheard of that folks are hating on these genres and therefore declare these maps shit, while somebody else, who enjoys that style of play thinks the very same maps which somebody despises with a fiery passion are pretty decent.

 

And that's where what you call "arrogance" comes in. When I make a slaughtermap, do you seriously think I'd care even for a second if somebody who is an outspoken hater of that genre tells me how to improve on its gameplay? I don't give a crap when I know that the "feedback" on gameplay is coming from somebody who isn't part of the "target audience", and the same applies when there's enough reason to believe that the person was in well above their head when playing these maps. And the reason I put "arrogance" in quotation marks is because if it is your feedback that gets dismissed, then that might look arrogant, but really there's nothing arrogant about it. It's "filtering", if anything.

 

Nobody is obligated to cater to as many players as possible, regardless of whether or not they share their maps, and catering to as many people as possible doesn't make a map "better" per se, especially not when it's down to "niche gameplay", or "edge cases" if you want to call it that.

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24 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

...

You see, some of what you said makes sense but then I get a little confused at the part where you declare that what you do isn't arrogance.

 

I get that "outspoken critics" of slaughter wads aren't going to enjoy your work, yes, you don't have to listen to them, it'd be incredible however if you didn't keep referring to all of them as bad players because they don't enjoy your little niche (which is something you do almost all the time), I assure you that many decent players don't enjoy slaughter, stop defending it as the Holy Gatekeeper of skill.

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4 minutes ago, mrthejoshmon said:

it'd be incredible however if you didn't keep referring to all of them as bad players because they don't enjoy your little niche (which is something you do almost all the time), I assure you that many decent players don't enjoy slaughter, stop defending it as the Holy Gatekeeper of skill.

You're not going to see me call somebody a bad player just because they can't beat one particular slaughtermap. I also don't call people bad players when they simply don't enjoy slaughtermaps in general. For instance I wouldn't call ZeroMaster or eLim bad players even though both of them I have never seen anywhere near a slaughtermap, unless it was unavoidable for some reason. What you are going to hear me talk about, though, is how slaughtermaps take skills that are different from what people are used to after playing mostly reiterations of "vanilla Doom", for example. That's a slight yet important difference as far as I'm concerned.

 

Never mind that decent players aren't going to call maps "shit" or "unfair" by virtue of genre, decent players are going to be straight up honest and say that something isn't their cup of tea and move on with life. That is something that I think is a respectable decision. Dropping a chocolate steamer on something, even going so far as to question whether something has even been playtested in the first place, is an entirely different story. When the latter happens, and unfortunately it does more often than not, then I see no reason not to point that out regardless of how elitist that makes me look.

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19 minutes ago, mrthejoshmon said:

You see, some of what you said makes sense but then I get a little confused at the part where you declare that what you do isn't arrogance.

 

I get that "outspoken critics" of slaughter wads aren't going to enjoy your work, yes, you don't have to listen to them, it'd be incredible however if you didn't keep referring to all of them as bad players because they don't enjoy your little niche (which is something you do almost all the time), I assure you that many decent players don't enjoy slaughter, stop defending it as the Holy Gatekeeper of skill.

Yeah, some people like myself enjoy smaller scale fights against smarter enemies, such as Quake or F.E.A.R. or more niche resources and clever placements like Doom 1 and Plutonia, actually.

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5 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

...

No you don't say people who can't complete certain maps are bad, instead you sit there and cannot resist calling people bad when they mention that they don't enjoy the niche concepts you enjoy (slaughter maps being one of those concepts), you less defend particular maps and instead defend these niche concepts themselves with zeal (which you already did in this very thread).

 

You know the concepts are also widely unpopular, in fact didn't you say your maps are purposefully sadistic and horrible to most players and filled with purposefully frustrating gameplay? Why are you surprised people are calling them unfair and bullshit when you literally designed them to be that way? I'd argue that a good player WOULD call that shit out for being as such.

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13 minutes ago, mrthejoshmon said:

No you don't say people who can't complete certain maps are bad, instead you sit there and cannot resist calling people bad when they mention that they don't enjoy the niche concepts you enjoy (slaughter maps being one of those concepts), you less defend particular maps and instead defend these niche concepts themselves with zeal (which you already did in this very thread)

If one post with literally one sentence in it qualifies as a zealous defense, then I'd advise you to put in more effort next time you try and build a strawman. Never mind that the context for that post is barely about niche concepts to begin with.

21 minutes ago, mrthejoshmon said:

You know the concepts are also widely unpopular, in fact didn't you say your maps are purposefully sadistic and horrible to most players and filled with purposefully frustrating gameplay? Why are you surprised people are calling them unfair and bullshit when you literally designed them to be that way? I'd argue that a good player WOULD call that shit out for being as such

I know most people find stuff I enjoy nigh insufferable, that's why I am pretty upfront in the OP as to what players should expect when they play that stuff. Here's how nasty and elitist of a bitch I am: I actually give out warnings and I even included a demo so people could watch what was about to happen in the map. Here's some evidence if you need it:

 

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1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

If one post with literally one sentence in it qualifies as a zealous defense, then I'd advise you to put in more effort next time you try and build a strawman. Never mind that the context for that post is barely about niche concepts to begin with.

I know most people find stuff I enjoy nigh insufferable, that's why I am pretty upfront in the OP as to what players should expect when they play that stuff. Here's how nasty and elitist of a bitch I am: I actually give out warnings and I even included a demo so people could watch what was about to happen in the map. Here's some evidence if you need it:

 

You're purposefully misinterpreting what I am saying.

 

The zeal is not in the post but instead in the amount of times you've rushed in to defend, you never miss an opportunity to rush in and say "oh you're just bad" whenever anybody complains about what you you like and get into endless arguments, in fact that is what just happened.

 

It's telling that my post wasn't even directed at you, it never was because I have never played anything by you (because I'd probably hate it), yet you still had to defend yourself over it because whilst indirect in nature, it was like reading a mirror for you, wasn't it?

 

Also, showing an example of where you weren't an asshole doesn't mean you don't act like an asshole.

 

But no, continue to run around in circles unaware of how much of a dick you look, someone else will have to call you out on it because frankly you clearly aren't worth arguing with.

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i'd tell you guys to get a room but this thread probably has outlived any use it would have had anyway, so by all means continue

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41 minutes ago, mrthejoshmon said:

You're purposefully misinterpreting what I am saying.

 

41 minutes ago, mrthejoshmon said:

It's telling that my post wasn't even directed at you, it never was because I have never played anything by you (because I'd probably hate it), yet you still had to defend yourself over it because whilst indirect in nature, it was like reading a mirror for you, wasn't it? 

Look who's talking.

 

41 minutes ago, mrthejoshmon said:

Also, showing an example of where you weren't an asshole doesn't mean you don't act like an asshole.

I'm pretty sure that showing an example of how I'm not an asshole pretty clearly indicates that I'm not acting like an asshole, at the very least not by default.

 

Once more for you to wrap it up: People calling something "shit" (to say the least) because they don't like it, no matter what type of genre it is, is not something I find acceptable, and I care about those people's precious feelings as much as they care about the mapper's feelings. Also, weeding out feedback based on "where it's coming from", has nothing to do with "arrogance" whether you like it or not. Would you listen to my feedback when I told you your map was too easy and therefore "morbidly boring" to play? Most likely not, because you know where it's coming from. Don't pretend you've never disregarded any feedback you've gotten based on who gave it or how it was delivered, everybody does that.

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I guess that people arguing over crap in a level can be one of the worst aspects of a doom level after all.

This thread ran its course anyway.

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17 hours ago, muumi said:

Levels where you SSG mancubus in cramped corridor, SSG baron in cramped corridor, SSG two revenants in cramped corridor, repeat 20x times and blow up reactor, end.

 

Like this?

  Hide contents

MAP01.png

 

It could be i think. Cyberdemon looks like he is stuck but there is wall where you can hide from his rockets. Not worst place but not good either in my opinion.

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1 minute ago, Marlamir said:

It could be i think. Cyberdemon looks like he is stuck but there is wall where you can hide from his rockets. Not worst place but not good either in my opinion.

Hmm, that reminds me of another bad thing, maps where pretty much the only way to survive is to play the old game of peek-a-boo. 

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1 minute ago, 94's the best style said:

Hmm, that reminds me of another bad thing, maps where pretty much the only way to survive is to play the old game of peek-a-boo. 

This style is good sometimes but mostly indeed not, it's really depends what the player like

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On 9/24/2018 at 10:21 AM, wesleyjohnson said:

I thought I wrote a book on this ...

 

Top worse things:

1. Learn by dying.

In any map design, if you are expected to learn where the traps and monsters are by try and die, I will often die and find something else better to do.

2. Nose-grinding

This includes fake walls with normal wall textures, doors with normal wall textures, and anything else with a switch that has a normal wall texture.

Two objects on a wall is not an indication that it is a fake wall (like some very plain early wads did), it is decoration.

3. Shoot-switches with normal wall textures.

Cannot expect that players are going to go around shooting innocent walls.

4. walkover line that opens a hidden door, who knows where

Don't care what you use it for, it requires the player to search the entire floor to find out why they cannot advance.  The player does not even get to know they successfully did something.

5. teleport hordes of monster traps

That is not playing the wad, when you have no choices the wad author is just playing with you.

6. twitchy finger exercises

Having to run the player to beat a door, or dance over some pillars, or some other finger exercise that is best suited for 9-year olds with nothing better to do.

The equivalent of the ball and cup toy.  How many times will you try to get that ball to land in that cup?  Did you feel that the accomplishment was worth the time invested?

I will only try a few times.  Once I have sucked all the adventure out of the exercise (which is quicker than most authors seem to think), then I will use a cheat to bypass it.  I call it "player digs a tunnel".

7. the rat maze

Anything that looks like it belongs in a psych laboratory.

It is just as bad when it has bits of cheese at selected dead-ends. 

 

 

 

check out gears of war dude, you will never like a doom map

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This all happened because of the last part of my first post in this thread, which was made to spite exactly who I expected it to. Honestly you never even learn, do you?

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On 9/25/2018 at 5:12 AM, Nine Inch Heels said:

Not necessarily. Never mind that I know where some of those complaints are coming from, though. ;-)

can I just point out one more time that I wasn't actually complaining at all? I want this grudge to stop because I don't exactly know when it started.

4 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said:

No you don't say people who can't complete certain maps are bad, instead you sit there and cannot resist calling people bad when they mention that they don't enjoy the niche concepts you enjoy (slaughter maps being one of those concepts), you less defend particular maps and instead defend these niche concepts themselves with zeal (which you already did in this very thread).

 

You know the concepts are also widely unpopular, in fact didn't you say your maps are purposefully sadistic and horrible to most players and filled with purposefully frustrating gameplay? Why are you surprised people are calling them unfair and bullshit when you literally designed them to be that way? I'd argue that a good player WOULD call that shit out for being as such.

Good players want good aspects. The matter is completely subjective and I don't know what else to say about it.

2 hours ago, LouigiVerona said:

Mazes. Biggest offense.

Completely forgot about this and I'm running through some Maximum Doom maps right now, hah.

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54 minutes ago, yakfak said:

 

check out gears of war dude, you will never like a doom map

It's like he played modern games, then played Doom maps from the mid-90's, noted the differences and decided to complain about every aspect of the latter. Although, to be honest, #1 is present in pretty much everything I play. All game play is either trial-and-error, or using one skill(set) in a straight competition. Any sort of story or arcade game with a challenge element is going to be the former.

 

As for what I think doesn't belong in Doom maps? Enemies visibly popping out of solid floors has always struck me as ridiculous and should be replaced with teleporters, monster closets or at least a liquid flat or something to make it look like they surfaced from there. Other than that... Well, I have my preferences for what kind of map I'm playing. Ideally I'm not going to be constantly exposed to immediately lethal risk and I won't just be in some slaughter-arena. I'd rather be exploring a 90's maze humping all of the walls to find any means of progress.

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4 minutes ago, NuMetalManiak said:

can I just point out one more time that I wasn't actually complaining at all? I want this grudge to stop because I don't exactly know when it started.

I don't even know what grudge you are talking about. Never mind that I wasn't the one who announced a map that would aim to spite you, even though I can see the appeal behind making such a map and turning it into something that somebody else is going to enjoy. I don't think a map is a bad outcome all things considered.

 

That aside though, and you know this already, because I have been pretty upfront about it somewhere else, the way you go about your opinions on occasion is something that is going to net you certain kinds of reactions. For me it's similar, but I don't care if I get an elbow to the ribs here and there, it just comes with the territory.

 

That aside, these "what do you hate in maps" kind of threads always go down the shitter at some point anyway, and frankly, I'd rather see it go off rails like it did than seeing it go the way another thread (confessional booth) went after somebody felt the need to say that skillsaw's monster placement in Ancient aliens needed to be "unfucked", among other similar things. That, by the way, is one good reason not to take feedback into account. And it's definitely not because of arrogance that I see it that way. Obviously joshmon will be tempted to disagree with me on this, because he most likely has to for some reason.

 

If you're still not sure about something, we should probably discuss it via PM.

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2 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Obviously joshmon will be tempted to disagree with me on this, because he most likely has to for some reason.

Possibly one of the most ironic things I've ever read.

 

Spoiler

The doom confessional thread was derailed because of you. You and a very small, select group of individuals on Doomworld seem to employ a very bizarre technique when talking to someone you dislike that I can't say I've ever seen before: flat out disagreeing with virtually everything they say, no matter how asinine the statements you make because of it. Just like in the confessional thread, where in your attempt to disagree with everything the person in question said, you (whether intentionally or not) ended up claiming that the very concept of artificial difficulty simply did not exist, so it's pretty amazing that you would then accuse someone else of doing the same thing.

 

On top of that, you in particular seem to have a habit of always trying to have the last laugh so to speak, where even when you're beat, completely in the wrong, and have nothing else to add, you still try to have the final reply, endlessly dragging on a fight that you likely didn't need to pick and more importantly, one that you already lost. There was no reason to make another response, and in these circumstances, telling someone to discuss it over PMs with you (especially in as condescending a way as you did) in what appears to be a desperate attempt to save face only causes more anguish for you in the end.

 

And before you potentially reply with a 200 IQ response saying that I'm being a hypocrite, I urge you to take a moment to reread this post and reconsider.

 

You need to think about what you say to people, and learn to take your losses.

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8 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said:

The zeal is not in the post but instead in the amount of times you've rushed in to defend, you never miss an opportunity to rush in and say "oh you're just bad" whenever anybody complains about what you you like and get into endless arguments, in fact that is what just happened.

 

I'm sorry I must have missed something, where did nih say "oh you're just bad?" Also isn't the concept of being skilled vs not skilled kinda within the premise of being able to survive challenge maps? Is it not more arrogant for me as an unskilled/unseasoned (among pwads in general or among a specific genre, not iwads) player to adopt the UV-or-just mindset then complain about difficulty within maps that are advertised on their difficulty? Yo I have died almost a literal thousand times and banged my head into at least a couple dozen walls in NiH maps and she's never told me I sux'd. (In my run of that birthday map I died over 350 times after the first save I made, so that's not counting the deaths leading up to that) In fact, when I'm in the middle of (respectfully) venting and saying "idk what to do," her response to me has always been "watch the demo for strats." 

 

The concept of arrogance in map design isn't lost on me, in fact I would be right there with you on inescapable pits and custom enemies in SotNR, though thats mostly for the additional, unnecessary tediousness it compounds on top of the already tedious gameplay, but I really don't think it can apply to challenge maps solely on the basis of player skill, because the whole point of a challenge map is to be really tough for well seasoned players. If the fun aspect is killed in the process of making a map more difficult then arrogance in design is more believable, but sometimes interactions come down to more than one thing, and misunderstandings are a thing, especially for newer mappers, like when a new mapper just thinks people didn't "get" what they made so they press on ignoring the advice to reevaluate things, like Pan's map. If a challenge map isn't beyond the skill range of an iWad doomer, which is naturally going to mean that some folk won't be "good enough" now, (though that never discounts later after more practice) then it has failed at its goal.

 

Challenge maps can be very much likened to kaizo mario, in just about every facet that has come up in this overall discussion. I've heard a lot of people call those levels impossible trash maps, yet many skilled players actually have fun with them and like them, though in fact the toughest part about them is most often understanding what to do in the first place, which also kinda ties into a comment I made on DW maybe a month ago, (prolly in the savescum thread) something about people not understanding the fundamentals of using a doorknob, instead bashing their heads into the door until it opens, then calling it bullshit design. But lets face it, in reality they really do just need to practice and study more in order to appreciate it.

 

But the biggest problem in all of this is the assumption of arrogance in the first place, (is kaizo mario arrogant design? And if yes, then perhaps we are not in agreement over the denotation/connotation of arrogance over confidence/etc) which needs so much more info to be a valid drawn conclusion than "ones own feelings;" after all, isn't holding your own fee-fees above others arrogant as well?

 

8 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said:

But no, continue to run around in circles unaware of how much of a dick you look, someone else will have to call you out on it because frankly you clearly aren't worth arguing with.

 

And this now can apply to you as well. At no point were you personally insulted in all of this; that comment was uncalled for.

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10 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

When I make a slaughtermap, do you seriously think I'd care even for a second if somebody who is an outspoken hater of that genre tells me how to improve on its gameplay?

 

In all fairness, why would someone who is an outspoken hater of slaughter play a slaughtermap to comment on its gameplay, except as an attempt at trolling? Of course, this is also the same world where heavy metal fans complain about how much Justin Bieber videos suck in the comment threads of Justin Bieber videos on Youtube, so what do I know?

 

11 minutes ago, Fonze said:

But the biggest problem in all of this is the assumption of arrogance in the first place, (is kaizo mario arrogant design? And if yes, then perhaps we are not in agreement over the denotation/connotation of arrogance over confidence/etc) which needs so much more info to be a valid drawn conclusion than "ones own feelings;" after all, isn't holding your own fee-fees above others arrogant as well?

 

The bottom line is, every aspect of maps that has been mentioned in this thread has someone who violently hates it with every fiber of his being, but, at the same time, there is someone else who absolutely lives for that type of feature in a map. Similarly, in the discussion of arrogance in mapping there are some who will find some aspect arrogant while others will not. There are precious few, if any, universally accepted norms in Doom mapping and design, so to ascribe something as tenuous as "arrogance" to it in the first place will just prove to be a grounds for an argument.

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gee oh gosh a thread about opinions i sure hope this doesn't end badly

 

it proceeded to end badly.

 

anyway since people'll give me shit if i don't chime in..... uhhh.... doors that are a part of the wall? indent your doors folks

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16 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

That aside, these "what do you hate in maps" kind of threads always go down the shitter at some point anyway

 

Wouldn't have happened if people learned to deal with opinions or agree to disagree, I think it's that simple in these cases.

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I find no fun to savecumming in Doom so I don't like gigantic levels with deadly encounters in each room which required to exploit save and load every 10 seconds, it is specially irritating for pistol start with no save.

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---__---

 

Instead of attacking people, try to take some names in some hellish maps...slaughter, puzzle, easy, hard, convoluted...your pick for theme maps folks. Better spend some time there. Thanks.

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