Whats up with the Doom 64 engine?

[hardcore_gamer]

1 hour ago, StevenC21 said:

No they don't?

 

It was my understanding that those mods recreated the assets from scratch.

 

No, they just ripped the sprites from the ROM. Do you really think they redrew all the textures and sprites from scratch? lmao. But it's ok since nobody seems to mind anyway.

[Nevander]

3 hours ago, GoatLord said:

Seems what we need is a Doom 64 .pk3 that lets you drop all replaced graphics/sound/music into your map. How possible would that be?

I've already done this. You can use Doom 64 Retribution as a gameplay mod for normal Doom with a little tweaking (something I need to do for the mod as a standalone mod), and loading the WAD as a resource can allow you to make new maps.

[Erick194]

Only for that, the textures and sprites of the Doom64 ex do not use the original format, they are converted to PNG format, which does not make it legal either?

[Dexiaz]

So, let's do "Doom the Way Midway Did"?

[hardcore_gamer]

11 hours ago, DeXiaZ said:

So, let's do "Doom the Way Midway Did"?

 

So a Doom 64 community project basically?

 

If something like that is suppose to happen then we will need to first create the modding resources required to do this. Most people here probably don't even have Doom 64 EX since that requires a copy of the original ROM file to play. Plus the editor is buggy as has been pointed out already. Brutal Doom is too controversial so I don't think using BD Doom 64 would be a good idea. It would probably be best to go with Doom 64 retribution.

 

Here is what we should do if we want to see a Doom 64 community project become a thing:

 

1. Use the Doom 64 retribution mod to create a resource file containing only the textures, weapons, props etc that can be loaded into Doom builder

2. Start a project thread announcing the project, and call it something like "Doom 64 community project/chest/whatever

3. Make the project gzdoom only in UDMF format or else it won't be possible to recreate the visual look of Doom 64.

4. List the number of map slots and let people map for them.

5. (optional) ask if some graphics artists are willing to make some new texture assets for the mod.

6. Profit!

 

Or at least that is how I would do this if you want the most realistic chance of ever seeing this thing get done.

[Koko Ricky]

I am absolutely down for this. If this becomes a thing I would like to map for it. I'm also an electronic musician and would totally be willing to compose new dark ambient tracks.

[Dexiaz]

4 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said:

Here is what we should do if we want to see a Doom 64 community project become a thing:

 

1. Use the Doom 64 retribution mod to create a resource file containing only the textures, weapons, props etc that can be loaded into Doom builder

2. Start a project thread announcing the project, and call it something like "Doom 64 community project/chest/whatever

3. Make the project gzdoom only in UDMF format or else it won't be possible to recreate the visual look of Doom 64.

4. List the number of map slots and let people map for them.

5. (optional) ask if some graphics artists are willing to make some new texture assets for the mod.

6. Profit!

 

I think that's the best variant.

[Xaser]

Starting a Doom64 community project and not using EX for it would be a damn shame, especially if the reasoning is because of alleged bugs with vague descriptions that haven't been reported to the author.

[hardcore_gamer]

13 minutes ago, Xaser said:

Starting a Doom64 community project and not using EX for it would be a damn shame, especially if the reasoning is because of alleged bugs with vague descriptions that haven't been reported to the author.

 

What's the benefit of using EX instead of the retribution mod? Yes I know that it's more similar to the original on a technical level but that alone isn't a strong reason to use it. Doom 64 retribution is basically just a polished version of Doom 64 that is pretty much exactly the same except it has a smoother framerate and more refined weapon animations. Plus using it rather than Doom 64 EX means that mappers won't have to relearn how to map, which they would have to do if they went with EX. Mapping for EX requires it's own separate version of Doom Builder and there are some things that are considerably different. Plus there are also the bugs. And it would also not be possible to use custom resources such as new textures or sprites since EX uses what is pretty much it's own separate engine.

 

Honestly, there just isn't any strong case to be made for using EX rather than retribution.

[Marcaek]

given the aimless nature and questionable quality control of other modern-port community projects i dont have much faith in this tbh

[StevenC21]

I think that we should use Retribution, since EX uses a... special... wad format, which would make it difficult to do anything serious for it.

 

I don't have any particular skills but if anyone seriously wants to get together to make a Doom 64 community project I will totally help out in any way I can.

 

Doom 64 deserves it.

 

I could probably test maps or something at least.

[hardcore_gamer]

47 minutes ago, Marcaek said:

given the aimless nature and questionable quality control of other modern-port community projects i dont have much faith in this tbh

 

What's the worst thing that could happen? Nobody is forced to play it anyway. And how is quality control for modern port projects worse than for more classic ports?

[StevenC21]

Its not, @hardcore_gamer. Marc is just being salty.

[Edward850]

37 minutes ago, StevenC21 said:

since EX uses a... special... wad format

No it doesn't.

Also it's a vastly better idea because it needs reminding that it's not actually legal to distribute Doom64's resources. As Ex is the only platform that requires you to provide your own ROM, it's inarguably the only legal port available. 

You make too many projects like Retribution which rip/distribute all the content wholesale and you run the risk of getting the wrong kind of attention. 

[StevenC21]

@Edward850 Yes EX does.

 

It packages each wad into a wad-within-a-wad, and does other things.

 

The data format is the same, but the structure is different.

[Edward850]

Yes, it does things differently because the game is architecturally different. The WAD format itself is still the same though, and thus can be manipulated with the same tools.

 

Expecting things to be exactly the same is like expecting BUILD to be the same. They have very different requirements. You are not modding the same game.

 

Heck, the fact that the existing WAD format was still suitable is surprising on its own.

[StevenC21]

BUILD is a completely different engine though.

 

The Doom 64 engine is still built off of the original Doom engine.

[hardcore_gamer]

32 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

No it doesn't.

Also it's a vastly better idea because it needs reminding that it's not actually legal to distribute Doom64's resources. As Ex is the only platform that requires you to provide your own ROM, it's inarguably the only legal port available. 

You make too many projects like Retribution which rip/distribute all the content wholesale and you run the risk of getting the wrong kind of attention. 

 

 

They don't care.

[Job]

I'd be elated if GZDB64 was simply more stable. I'd made good progress on a map and I think the nodes got blasted. Totally killed my ambition to continue. 

[Edward850]

11 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said:

They don't care.

I wouldn't be so sure. Be werry that a community manager isn't the legal team, and a simple tweet is a 5 minute action that doesn't actually require them to even look at the mod.

 

As I said, you don't have permission to distribute Doom64 freely. There is a threshold that you will hit if the constant redistribution is kept up.

[Nevander]

20 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Yes, it does things differently because the game is architecturally different. The WAD format itself is still the same though, and thus can be manipulated with the same tools.

Except for actually editing the maps. You can't open a Doom 64 map in GZDB. You must open it in DB64. SLADE is able to view both, yes. They are both WAD format and the actual structure is the same, but they can't be edited or opened interchangeably. GZDoom obviously cannot load the WADs either.

[Edward850]

19 minutes ago, StevenC21 said:

BUILD is a completely different engine though.

 

The Doom 64 engine is still built off of the original Doom engine.

Right, but it no longer functions exactly the same way. It has a whole new level format and data structures. Heck the tic rate isn't even compatible.

[StevenC21]

Yes, but it still is built off of the original engine.

 

I understand that ultimately they aren't really similar anymore, but I still think the distinction is important.

 

I really want a Doom 64 project. You can't even buy the damn thing anymore, I doubt id is going to do shit about it.

[kb1]

@StevenC21: What is it about a Doom 64 project that most interests you - is it the resources, or the map/rendering enhancements?

 

I ask out of curiosity (I don't know much about Doom 64), and because the answers opens up some interesting issues: Wanting to use the resources might require rips, or an original ROM, or may bring up legal issues. Wanting the rendering/coloring effects may warrant source port rendering enhancements, or drive the engine used.

 

If I recall, Doom 64 can do gradient texture lighting, and/or support more than one colormap per texture, right? From my very limited knowledge about Doom 64, I remember it being able to do some very snazzy rendering. I'd love to see some screenshots, or a video of that in action!

 

Good luck with your project.

[StevenC21]

Both!

 

I love the resources so much. Its incredible, but the enhancements would be a nice blend between the rather bland PrBoom+ abilities and the crazy over-the-top abilities of GZDoom.

[Dexiaz]

12 hours ago, DeXiaZ said:

I think that's the best variant.

 

*reads thread*

 

Ok, that was a mistake, lmao.

 

I'd like to post an alternate solution:

 

Due to nobody from id/died_midway/bethesda/whatever cares about "resource piracy" (look at BD64, Retribution, Absolution projects), we can forget about Doom 64 EX rule from installation instructions: to use ROM file to build WAD file.

 

If this is the real problem for people who can't find ROM file, I can provide the created iWAD file with all resources.

 

So, the next step is just download Doom64Ex_Builder itself and start mapping. It's the classic Doom 64 and there are no problems with "making it on modern engines", becuase D64EX is not "modern" engine in usual meaning.

[chungy]

47 minutes ago, DeXiaZ said:

Due to nobody from id/died_midway/bethesda/whatever cares about "resource piracy" (look at BD64, Retribution, Absolution projects), we can forget about Doom 64 EX rule from installation instructions: to use ROM file to build WAD file.

Neither inaction nor passing mentions from official Twitter accounts constitutes legal permission to use the resources. Piracy is piracy, and it can always be sent a C&D in the future.

 

There is also always going to be segments of the community that care about such matters, and those that don't care.

[Dexiaz]

Well, in other hand, even if we'll use pirated WAD file for making maps, all other users must create own WAD from ROM file...and that's makes no sense.

 

Yeah, right, forget about it.

 

Anyway, that's why I said that this idea is "dead" from the start. Everyone declines every variant.

[Nevander]

I don't get why there's so much fear of legal action. It's just a community map project. Really, the best way to go about it IS with Doom 64 EX, since we are only making maps FOR the game already there. It's the same thing as making projects for Doom 2 and you requiring the IWAD. Besides the bugs in D64EX and DB64, I don't understand all the fuss.

 

With that said, I would love to lead or be part of a Doom 64 community project whether it be with EX or Retribution. Although, if we used Retribution as a base for resources I would prefer if we waited until my next update is out. I've fixed and improved a literal ton of shit.

 

One final note: clearly if using Doom 64 resources was a problem, there are more than just Absolution, BD64 and Retribution that are in trouble. Do you have any idea how many mods have used stuff or borrowed from Doom 64? They do not give a damn. Who would even be the claimant? Midway is gone and id Software has no bearing on Doom 64's rights and doesn't give a damn. They are about to make bank on Eternal. You think they care about Doom 64 still making profits? If anyone would be a problem it would be Nintendo, but they only care about distribution of the ROM. We shouldn't let that hold us back.

 

EDIT: Final, final note: nobody in this thread has brought up the PSX Doom TC. Why does everyone think Doom 64 is a risk when we've had another TC of a Midway game here for years? Yea SONY isn't Nintendo but come on guys.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Nevander : Added another point

[kb1]

@Nevander: Yeah, maybe. But, I think you miss the point: It's something like "It's not a crime if you don't get caught" does not leave a warm and fuzzy feeling...