Do People Really Like Classic Doom For What It Is?

[THEBaratusII]

I voted on both, but I preferably play it Vanilla most of the time. Of course I did played a bit of Brutal Doom before, I don't hate Brutal Doom, but it's actually not my type of Doom I'd play. I currently play on either Crispy Doom (vanilla or limit-removing), or ZDaemon (for multiplayer). Not really into GZDoom/Zandronum unless I play a specific mod like Samsara, D4T, etc. Also to mention PrBoom for BOOM-compatible maps.

[FractalBeast]

34 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

 

 

A bit overrated? Yes, as there are better mods like D4T, QCDE, Wrath of Cronos etc

BUT saying that it is garbage is UTTERLY STUPID. There is a REASON why it has a huge following. I m not praising SgtMarkIV here as i am aware of his bad deeds but hating something because it is COOL to hate popular stuff is moronic. Its okay to not be a BD fan but shitting on it because it is not to your taste is dumb.

 

 

Luckily in BDv21 you can configure the gore amount to very low as opposed to previous versions. SgtMarkIV added this primarily for providing better performance in slaughterfest maps. Otherwise if ur just hating it for the sake of hating, then see my reply to Rimantus.

What about toning down the pyrotechnics of weapons? I assume that's not really an option. I don't mind enemies caked on walls, floor and ceiling, but when the shotgun gives me as much bang as the vanilla rocket launcher, we just have a problem. Because that ain't right. It's a shotgun, not a close-quarters anti-tank gun.

[Rosh Fragger]

Classic Doom forever! <3

[Loud Silence]

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I'm far from a fan of brutal doom for my own reasons, but since you're calling a modder (and a group of people who contributed resources and code) who made something lots of people seem to enjoy "dummy", might we have a look at your amazing mods/maps/anything-doom-related?

I have read that brDoom creator tried to make some people commit suicide and was banned from some forums. Then i look at brDoom and i see that can really be truth. I don't make any mods or maps, but i would never make such sick things like sgt mark did.

[coolbisondude]

7 minutes ago, Rosh Fragger said:

Classic Doom forever! <3

 

100% true my friend

[A Nobody]

Could you maybe calm down on the Brutal Doom discussion guys?

[Fonze]

1 hour ago, ReaperAA said:

 

 

A bit overrated? Yes, as there are better mods like D4T, QCDE, Wrath of Cronos etc

BUT saying that it is garbage is UTTERLY STUPID. There is a REASON why it has a huge following. I m not praising SgtMarkIV here as i am aware of his bad deeds but hating something because it is COOL to hate popular stuff is moronic. Its okay to not be a BD fan but shitting on it because it is not to your taste is dumb.

 

 

Luckily in BDv21 you can configure the gore amount to very low as opposed to previous versions. SgtMarkIV added this primarily for providing better performance in slaughterfest maps. Otherwise if ur just hating it for the sake of hating, then see my reply to Rimantus.

 

Any mod that steals assets and espouses racism is garbage. 

 

That said, why are you so into it that you need to defend it with fully capitalized words? Getting awfully worked up over an illegitimately distributed and morally reprehensible mod.

[Loud Silence]

In original Doom you are good guy killing demons. In brutal Doom you are maniac addicted to gore. "Rip and Tear" "Fuck yourself" perfectly fits to sgt. mark vi's "Go suicide" "Kill yourself". Maybe brutal Doom is fun to many people, but abusement, bullying, drugs, alcohol, smoking are popular too, in all world. So just because these things are popular, they are good and can't be called garbage? I didn't mean to offend anyone, i don't force anyone to agree with me. But, guys, don't be lazy to look at things deeper and closer.

[ReaperAA]

13 minutes ago, Fonze said:

 

Any mod that steals assets and espouses racism is garbage. 

 

That said, why are you so into it that you need to defend it with fully capitalized words? Getting awfully worked up over an illegitimately distributed and morally reprehensible mod.

 

Defending Brutal doom? No. Its not even my favourite mod, let alone being a fanboy and getting worked up over it.

 

I was just trying to tell him that hating something because its not to his liking is dumb. I admit i probably overreacted but i dont understand people who hate things for the sake of hating(as if its something cool).

 

And i know about the SgtMarkIV's low moral character (i.e using assets without permission and immature/racial comments) but at the same time, you have to admit his mod helped bring young blood into doom.

[ReaperAA]

13 minutes ago, Rimantas said:

In original Doom you are good guy killing demons. In brutal Doom you are maniac addicted to gore. "Rip and Tear" "Fuck yourself" perfectly fits to sgt. mark vi's "Go suicide" "Kill yourself".

 

Granted SgtMarkIV has low moral standards and some of morals can be seen in BD but saying that the entire mod is just "Rip and Tear F**k urself" is far from truth.

 

7 minutes ago, Rimantas said:

but abusement, bullying, drugs, alcohol, smoking are popular too, in all world. So just because these things are popular, they are good and can't be called garbage?

 

Ok, u have a point here. But if BD is evil then a lot of other video games are evil, including games like Duke3d and blood. Are u ready to call them garbage too.

 

9 minutes ago, Rimantas said:

I don't force anyone to agree with me.

 

Ok, if that the case then i am cool.

[Loud Silence]

@ReaperAA

Duke 3D is cool game. Blood and Blood 2... oh boy, these at least were made by good guys. Monolith made No One Lives Forever 1-2, so i love that company. Blood has pretty and funny design, it helps game A LOT. Blood 2 - when i saw working wash machine with girl half inside and blood all over, i thought "WTF?!" I didn't play Blood 2 further because i guess i would see more mood killing things. Brutal Doom wouldn't be so bad if i wouldn't know sgtmarkiv's intentions by making this mod.

[KVELLER]

You guys can go ahead and make yet another "Brutal Doom discussion thread" if you want to, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped derailing this one. Just my two cents.

Edited October 27, 2018 by KVELLER : Will I ever stop mistyping my damn words??

[ReaperAA]

16 minutes ago, Rimantas said:

@ReaperAA

Duke 3D is cool game. Blood and Blood 2... oh boy, these at least were made by good guys. Monolith made No One Lives Forever 1-2, so i love that company. Blood has pretty and funny design, it helps game A LOT. Blood 2 - when i saw working wash machine with girl half inside and blood all over, i thought "WTF?!" I didn't play Blood 2 further because i guess i would see more mood killing things. Brutal Doom wouldn't be so bad if i wouldn't know sgtmarkiv's intentions by making this mod.

 

Ok, so u like Duke3d and blood because they are made by supposedly good guys. How are u sure they are good guys though?

 

4 minutes ago, KVELLER said:

You guys can go ahead and make yet another "Brutal Doom dicussion thread" if you want to, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped derailing this one. Just my two cents.

 

Alright, I rest my case. If i offended anyone then i am extremely sorry.

 

Back on topic:

I vote "both" because i like vanilla doom but it gets stale after a while especially if am playing iwads so i add in a gameplay mod to keep things fresh

 

[Fonze]

@ReaperAA when you compare professional companies that did all their work legally to some guy in his basement who did everything illegally and unethically it really makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

3 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

And i know about the SgtMarkIV's low moral character (i.e using assets without permission and immature/racial comments) but at the same time, you have to admit his mod helped bring young blood into doom.

 

Any young blood it has brought into the community doesn't excuse anything nor make any of the wrongs okay or otherwise acceptable. The doom movie brought tons of new blood into the community without being racist and stealing work from others who made said work in their free time (for fun) and it was still garbage. That's mostly a joke but for a more serious analogy: would you be okay with accepting an amazing sandwich from me if you knew that I stole the bread from a homeless guy? Would the stated amazingness or any other accomplishments of the sandwich at all overshadow the unacceptable way I went about procuring the ingredients?

[Edward850]

4 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

you have to admit his mod helped bring young blood into doom.

I'm not sure why this keeps getting said as if that automatically makes all his theft and ego a-okay. It doesn't, and further I'd go as far to say that the people and media attention has done nothing for us. It doesn't mean jack shit if all they talk about is BD (and instadoom for whatever reason). 

The people he brought aren't interested in Doom at all, essentially, just this one mod. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Edward850

[TakenStew22]

I heard alot about SgtMark and how much of a "douche" he is. Is it true? Did he really make racist comments and told a kid to kill himself? Just curious. Sorry if this is getting too dark and off-topic.

[seed]

9 minutes ago, TakenStew22 said:

I heard alot about SgtMark and how much of a "douche" he is. Is it true? Did he really make racist comments and told a kid to kill himself? Just curious. Sorry if this is getting too dark and off-topic.

 

He himself admitted doing this at some point. How frequent were those statements however, I do not know.

[Nine Inch Heels]

11 minutes ago, TakenStew22 said:

Did he really make racist comments and told a kid to kill himself?

At some point the brutal doom script for the plasma gun had something in along the lines of "Turns a Zombie into a Nxxxxr". So yeah, he's not been the most reasonable person, to say the least. I don't know if he ever told anybody to kill themselves, neither have I seen any evidence for that, so it may or may or may not be true as far as I'm concerned. What was another problem in my book, aside these things, was that he used resources he didn't give the authors credit for, which is a double whammy when you consider that he's been making money with his mod.

[xAn]

Both. Even with mods its simplicity is unmatched.

[Looper]

I think Doom1 E1M1, M4, M7 and M8 are great, but the rest is quite garbage, Especially EP2. EP4 has a couple great levels, levels that aren't just about occasional zombies with 0 difficulty with key hunting. The music is great though.

[kb1]

16 hours ago, EtherBot said:

That's a really unhealthy way to think about art.

You realize that I've been against applying the "outdated" term, right? Cause, otherwise, I totally agree with your post...until *you* start using the same label.

 

Quote

But, say it with me, Doom is still a valuable product. In fact it holds up remarkably well just on account of being internally consistent. All the elements mesh which is what actually makes something timeless.

Say it with you? I've been saying it all along.

 

Quote

To assume art can become superfluous is ludicrous...

I continue to agree...

 

Quote

...and I think your strong reaction to the idea of it happening to a thing you love is because you can already tell that the concept is inherently terrifying.

I'm not too bothered by what people think. What's terrifying to me is that there is a lot to appreciate in the world, but, more and more, I see non-satisfaction. So many people seem 'tapped-out'. When's the last time you saw a kid beat a tree with a stick? (heh). Or take a walk. Watch a bird make a nest. "Outdated" suggests an overwhelming boredom - an apathy - a unending need for new stimulation.

 

I guess I'm just suggesting that some things are good the way they are, and will continue to be good, and don't need to be compared against the latest and greatest thing. Doom, for example, has proven itself, and, to me, will remain timeless.

 

Quote

 

I don't have much to say about how games take a ton of effort to create which goes largely unappreciated. In my experience, at least, kids these days don't honestly care about graphics or technical fidelity. They'll definitely notice when a game is older but aside from a token mention of it, it usually don't actually 'bother' them. Again, that's just my personal experience.

 

I think the issue with game-making being a thankless job is largely the fault of marketing more than anything. A single two-year game cycle today would have taken a decade in the 90s, but video games aren't being sold as massive multi-media powerhouses of expression. They're being sold exactly the same way they were being sold in the 90s.

I have to agree here. A good game doesn't need hyper-realism to be fun. But today, you don't get in the door without all the gooey graphic goodness. Again, the "outdated", or even worse, the "retro" (read: crappy) label.

 

Hell, we collected aluminum cans so we could throw quarters into our video games.

(Guess what? I don't call those games outdated either :)

 

EDIT: My God, I'm rambling - apologies. Anyway, Long Live Classic Doom, and all that!

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by kb1

[ReaperAA]

8 hours ago, Fonze said:

for a more serious analogy: would you be okay with accepting an amazing sandwich from me if you knew that I stole the bread from a homeless guy? Would the stated amazingness or any other accomplishments of the sandwich at all overshadow the unacceptable way I went about procuring the ingredients?

 

 U r right, I wouldn't accept it. But this doesn't mean the sandwitch itself is garbage, it just means that the guy who created the sandwitch used illegal means to prepare it.

[[McD] James]

20 hours ago, Nancsi said:

 

Am I the only one who think Brutal Doom is disgusting, and the flashy and noisy gore takes away all the atmosphere and fun from the game?

 

Yes, you are the only person alive who thinks this. 

[kb1]

9 hours ago, Fonze said:

@ReaperAA when you compare professional companies that did all their work legally to some guy in his basement who did everything illegally and unethically it really makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

 

Any young blood it has brought into the community doesn't excuse anything nor make any of the wrongs okay or otherwise acceptable. The doom movie brought tons of new blood into the community without being racist and stealing work from others who made said work in their free time (for fun) and it was still garbage. That's mostly a joke but for a more serious analogy: would you be okay with accepting an amazing sandwich from me if you knew that I stole the bread from a homeless guy? Would the stated amazingness or any other accomplishments of the sandwich at all overshadow the unacceptable way I went about procuring the ingredients?

Are we talking brussel sprouts, or roast beef and cheese? Do you tell me about the bread before, or after every sloppy, scrumptious, mouthwatering, finger-licking bite? That's terrible, man. You owe that guy some bread.

 

I can forgive the occasional scumbag comment or two (everyone's made them, don't lie. Well, everyone's made them privately, not on a damn public forum - jeez, Sgt?). But, yeah, give people credit for their sprites in your little blood porn fetish game, man. I get that being controversial is "brootal, man!", but don't be a dick.

 

On that subject, I seriously doubt that newcomers to Doom via BrutalDoom share the mod creator's life philosophies. Those are new Doomers, who are currently testing the game's ability to render a massive mod. Those are new potential modders themselves. Every modder hacks on something, whether it's BD, or Doom II, or whatever. Why "brutalize" newcomers who have, apparently already been "exposed to garbage" by alienating them? Ain't Doom supposed to be fun?

[A Nobody]

17 hours ago, Edward850 said:

I'm not sure why this keeps getting said as if that automatically makes all his theft and ego a-okay. It doesn't, and further I'd go as far to say that the people and media attention has done nothing for us. It doesn't mean jack shit if all they talk about is BD (and instadoom for whatever reason). 

The people he brought aren't interested in Doom at all, essentially, just this one mod. 

This is a reason why I made the thread, to know if people even like Doom or not.

[OliveTree]

okay so I can't stand brutal doom arguments but if I can throw my two cents in:

 

Sgt Mark is an asshole who exists in a weird echo chamber circle jerk with his 'fans'

 

Brutal Doom isn't even remotely harmful to the Doom community. It isn't even that edgy, it's pretty tame.

 

I played the original doom as it was first, so I can't speak for whether naive fans who liked Brutal Doom also somehow have no interest in other mods. But to me that sounds kinda unlikely. Brutal Doom isn't a new iwad inspired by Doom. It's a gameplay mod. If fans liked the level design they'll probably be curious about the other gameplay mods out there.

Edited October 27, 2018 by EtherBot

[[McD] James]

For what it's worth, Brutal Doom was my introduction to Doom modding. I might not have joined this forum if it weren't for Brutal Doom. Doom was already one of my favourite video games before I got into Brutal Doom, but Brutal Doom contributed to making me a bigger fan of Doom overall. Doom played with GZDoom, HXRTCHUD, and the Sunlust replacement for the Plasma sound effect is my favourite way to play Doom. At the end of the day, Brutal Doom really only lead to me appreciating vanilla Doom even more.

[OliveTree]

On 10/26/2018 at 6:06 PM, kb1 said:

You realize that I've been against applying the "outdated" term, right? Cause, otherwise, I totally agree with your post...until *you* start using the same label.

That was the point. I was trying to appeal in some way so I can explain what I'm getting at but that's fine. The purpose of my post was to say that your definition* of outdated inherently applies to Doom. And yet, thinking that would be a theoretically bad thing is unhealthy. Doom is outdated by your own qualifications but your comment saying 'why else would we be here talking about it' or something to that effect is what set me off. That's not how art works, see my ghostbusters parallel.

 

On 10/26/2018 at 6:06 PM, kb1 said:

But today, you don't get in the door without all the gooey graphic goodness. Again, the "outdated", or even worse, the "retro" (read: crappy) label.

A few notes.

 

1) Retro almost never means crappy. Most people who call something retro are saying it looks aesthetically pleasing but in an old kind of way. For reference just look up the word retro on google, I guess. There's also the 'old but cool' joke in Wreck-It Ralph -- I've never heard someone say retro in a negative light.

 

2) Newer games tend to have shorter shelf lives because they aren't built to last. Hardly anyone's out there knocking the graphics of Borderlands 2, but Call of Duty Infinite Warfare already looks 'dated' because its only actual intention was to be hyper-realistic, and hyper-realism is only impressive the first time you see it. Once something else more realistic comes out it ceases to be impressive and there isn't much else there to be impressed by.

 

*EDIT: Here's your definition, for what it's worth:

 

On 10/25/2018 at 5:14 PM, kb1 said:

To me, "outdated" suggests that it's been surpassed by something newer, something better. If so, why post here?

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by EtherBot

[kb1]

13 minutes ago, EtherBot said:

That was the point. I was trying to appeal in some way so I can explain what I'm getting at but that's fine. The purpose of my post was to say that your definition of outdated inherently applies to Doom. And yet, thinking that would be a theoretically bad thing is unhealthy. Doom is outdated by your own qualifications but your comment saying 'why else would we be here talking about it' or something to that effect is what set me off. That's not how art works, see my ghostbusters parallel.

No, you don't get to simultaneously disagree, then agree, then redefine my definitions, suggest that me calling something timeless somehow affects my health, and then round it off by claiming to be an authority on something as subjective as art? No sale.

 

I can't even tell what your stance is, except that you intermittently disagree with me.

 

Doom is not outdated, I'm sill healthy, and "retro" usually means "too lazy to make it nice, let's put a positive spin on it".

I totally respect emulating an old environment on more modern hardware. But purposefully downgrading the graphics, as if following some "cool, hipster" trend...that enters into the gimmick realm, as far as I'm concerned.

 

If you can convince people that ugly = cool, you can get away with anything.

 

I'll throw an olive branch: Point #2: Agree. It's become a throw-away world. It's lack of pride of workmanship. But, to stay competitive (and in business), everyone must cash in their standards. And, everyone keeps buying 'em. Except me. I won't pay for a DRM-riddled product. Maybe that explains my stance: If you don't buy anything new, nothing you own becomes outdated. Win-win.

[OliveTree]

7 minutes ago, kb1 said:

No, you don't get to simultaneously disagree, then agree, then redefine my definitions, suggest that me calling something timeless somehow affects my health, and then round it off by claiming to be an authority on something as subjective as art? No sale.

  

I can't even tell what your stance is, except that you intermittently disagree with me.

Wow does this require some dissection to even approach responding to.

 

I neither 'agree' nor 'disagree' wholesale with your argument, that's why my comments aren't just me going 'but you suck.' I think you're right about some things but critically wrong about others. To you, this seems like I have an unfocused opinion? Why? I've made it pretty clear which parts I agree with and which parts I don't.

 

I never redefined your definition. You claimed that outdated meant it's been surpassed and I said that Doom was surpassed. You also think that outdated means it's not worth talking about, but I do. That's my opinion, since its so labyrinthian for you. If I'm just completely wrong about what you think, please correct me, but I can cite specific quotes where you express everything I just said, so I hope it at least makes sense that I assumed those things.

 

I never called you unhealthy. I think you have an unhealthy worldview on art, those are completely different. Don't act like I called you flawed in any way. I called your argument flawed.

 

13 minutes ago, kb1 said:

"retro" usually means "too lazy to make it nice, let's put a positive spin on it".

How. You can't just say something like that without explaining what you're actually even talking about. Are you saying retro game developers are lazy because they don't put in the effort for shinier AAA graphics? That would be sort of hypocritical...what exactly was your opinion on today's gamer youth again? They don't appreciate the effort that goes into game development, or something? Or was it that they're too hard to impress, unlike the good old days?

 

Every good video game had a shit ton of effort put into it. I'm genuinely offended by this comment. If I just interpreted it completely wrong, please correct me, but wow.