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The-Heretic-Assassin

Do People Really Like Classic Doom For What It Is?

People Playing Doom With or Without Mods  

237 members have voted

  1. 1. Would You Play Classic Doom With Mods or On Its Own?

    • With Mods
      12
    • Without Mods
      70
    • Both
      155


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1 minute ago, The-Heretic-Assassin said:

You like starting with the pistol on every map?

 

Considering it's what most maps were and still are built with in mind: yes.

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4 minutes ago, The-Heretic-Assassin said:

You like starting with the pistol on every map?

Don't see anything wrong with it and, as Fonze said, most maps are made with pistol start gameplay.

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On 10/1/2018 at 7:20 PM, reptc said:

I don't use gameplay mods, but I do use a pistol starter mod to save a little time typing idclev ## everytime starting a new level.

 

In prboom+ there's a key that restarts the current map. Incredibly useful! Rebind it to something convenient (shift works for me) and never look back.

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4 minutes ago, Fonze said:

 

Considering it's what most maps were and still are built with in mind: yes.

Is it even possible to make a map not build with pistol start in mind?

it's pretty much impossible to guess the weapons,ammo and health of the player at the end of the map before the map you are working on xD

 

On topic:
If they didn't this forum wouldn't exist/be dead ;D

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3 minutes ago, Grain of Salt said:

Rebind it to something convenient (shift works for me) and never look back

Gonna be fun when you press shift on accident in the middle of a 30+ minute run. :P

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3 minutes ago, SOSU said:

it's pretty much impossible to guess the weapons,ammo and health of the player at the end of the map before the map you are working on xD

 

A few runs by several people on the intended difficulty can help make a decent guess. It will come at the cost of completely bricking the run of people who performed below that, hence why a lot of mappers won't bother with it. This is completely based off other games that have that, so I might be wrong if someone can beat maps with 0 damage and ammo! (Games such as Heroes of Might and Magic, where a bad build spells doom for your last level in each campaign)

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11 minutes ago, The-Heretic-Assassin said:

You like starting with the pistol on every map?

 

Yeah, I really enjoy building my arsenal in a level as it gives me some sense of progression, and early combats are generally more entertaining and... balanced with pistol start, I think.

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1 hour ago, Fonze said:

 

Considering it's what most maps were and still are built with in mind: yes.

It greatly changes the dynamic of said maps and creates intersting interactions, thus increasing replayability. I would like to see more maps built with Nightmare compatibiity in mind.

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On 9/29/2018 at 3:13 AM, The-Heretic-Assassin said:

I had a thought in my mind wondering about some gamers loving the original Doom games.

 

Well DOOM was the first FPS I played, I never got much into Wolfenstein3D (although I did play Spear of Destiny and various Wolfenstein DOOM mods). I thoroughly enjoyed playing Ultimate DOOM (episodes 1 and 4 are my favorite). DOOM II is fun (I like the new enemies and the new weapons, but I like the DOOM levels better). Never played DOOM3 beyond the demo nor any mods for it. I played and enjoyed DOOM 2016 but no mods; DOOM 2016 while fun, didn't have staying power for me.

 

EDIT: Although I have to admit--I'm so used to playing with mouse-look and the ability to jump that it feels ... wrong ... to play vanilla DOOM without those abilities. So no, strictly speaking, I don't play vanilla DOOM anymore; but if you're just talking about a modern source port without mods, then yes, I do love "vanilla" DOOM.

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They're both good, but mods just add more awful crap good shit to an already good game, so I mean, I'm pretty much spoiled here since I played a lot of custom crap, so obviously I have to choose modded.

 

Hell, look at stuff like Beautiful Doom, vanilla but better, absolutely beautiful.

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If the wad I'm playing has custom weapons/monsters then I'm cool with it, tend to prefer dehacked style rather than decorate/edf/ddf (unless the changes are small). Don't use weapon/gameplay mods myself.

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On 10/3/2018 at 12:48 AM, SOSU said:

Is it even possible to make a map not build with pistol start in mind?

it's pretty much impossible to guess the weapons,ammo and health of the player at the end of the map before the map you are working on xD

 

I've been working on a continuous play wad - no pistol starts - and I balanced the ammo by playing each map and recording how much ammo I had left at the end of it after killing everything, and I would put about that much ammo at the start of the next map while I was building and testing it, and remove it after. Then I went through the whole wad a couple of times to make sure the ammo balance was okay, and had a couple of playtesters do it, too...

 

I'm polishing it up to get it ready for a release soon, maybe you'd like to give it a try.

 

As for bricking the run of someone who uses more ammo than intended: This is definitely a reality for someone playing on UV, but HMP is more generous with ammo and I think you'd have to really be trying to ever have this problem on an easy difficulty.

 

And anyway, in regards to the original question: Yep I still play vanilla Doom and Doom 2 sometimes. I wouldn't really want to play in the original engine, without mouselook, and I strongly prefer to play with freelook too, so I play with a more modern port that supports those things. But that's the only change I make when I play them.

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21 hours ago, meapineapple said:

 

I've been working on a continuous play wad - no pistol starts - and I balanced the ammo by playing each map and recording how much ammo I had left at the end of it after killing everything, and I would put about that much ammo at the start of the next map while I was building and testing it, and remove it after.

That's a cool approach to balancing a 'continuous play' multi-map WAD.

My thoughts are that every map should be do-able from pistol start, even if minimally, just to avoid the absolute need to reload a save game. For example, maybe map 2 becomes massively difficult without that plasma gun you were supposed to pick up in map 1. But you *could* provide another plasma gun in map 2, maybe halfway through, to justify all the plasma cells you encounter in map 2. Otherwise, you leave the player with some tough options, if they die in map 2:

  • reload a save game
  • start over at map 1
  • idkfa

In other words, if done carefully, you can style your mapset in 'continuous play' style, while still allowing the most bad-ass players to survive a pistol start approach, without ruining the gameplay of either approach. This allows players a few additional freedoms:

  • They can warp to a random map and have a chance to win.
  • They don't have to start back at map 1.

One rare occurrence is the Bad Save. I've had a save where, right after saving, I get hit in the back with 10 fireballs. And, every time I load the save game: Bam bam bam!

 

Then again, some people just like the challenge of pistol start. Demo recorders, in particular, like the flexibility to start where ever they want.

 

Of course, make your maps how you please - It's just a suggestion: Instead of flat-out denying pistol starters, make them work for it!

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On 9/29/2018 at 7:13 AM, The-Heretic-Assassin said:

I had a thought in my mind wondering about some gamers loving the original Doom games.

I do. There is absolutely something to be said for playing the original game as it was intended to be.

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On 10/10/2018 at 3:41 AM, meapineapple said:

 

I've been working on a continuous play wad - no pistol starts - and I balanced the ammo by playing each map and recording how much ammo I had left at the end of it after killing everything, and I would put about that much ammo at the start of the next map while I was building and testing it, and remove it after. Then I went through the whole wad a couple of times to make sure the ammo balance was okay, and had a couple of playtesters do it, too...

 

I'm polishing it up to get it ready for a release soon, maybe you'd like to give it a try.

 

As for bricking the run of someone who uses more ammo than intended: This is definitely a reality for someone playing on UV, but HMP is more generous with ammo and I think you'd have to really be trying to ever have this problem on an easy difficulty.

 

And anyway, in regards to the original question: Yep I still play vanilla Doom and Doom 2 sometimes. I wouldn't really want to play in the original engine, without mouselook, and I strongly prefer to play with freelook too, so I play with a more modern port that supports those things. But that's the only change I make when I play them.

I still (occasionally) play on a 486DX with 64 megs of ram. It brings me back (big time)

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I still replay each of the classic Doom titles on a semi-regular basis - nothing extra, just the original Doom experience.

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I play only original Doom and its engine's games, in vanilla way with Choco Doom. No mods can make something better in a perfect game for me. There are good mods indeed, but i still didn't found one which could feel better than original.

Edited by Rimantas : Edited, because previous post was little harsh.

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4 hours ago, Rimantas said:

I play only original Doom and its engine's games, in vanilla way with Choco Doom. No mods can make something better in a perfect game. For example that lame brutal Doom is interesting from technical side only, but it's not Doom.

You did a good job, until you lumped brutal doom and other mods in one. Like vanilla fork of smooth doom is equally bad with brutal doom. Honestly, there are lots of community mods and mapsets which already surpassed iwad quality in vanilla ways. Like Back to Saturn x or Suspended in Dusk. 

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On 9/29/2018 at 4:23 AM, Space Marinara said:

Who's "they" and why do you care what anyone else does?

 

Because that's the basis of civilization? 

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59 minutes ago, Myst.Haruko said:

You did a good job, until you lumped brutal doom and other mods in one.

I meant mods, which changes Doom's gameplay drastically (brutal Doom, hDoom for example). Because of that a lot of people meets Doom in very wrong way. I hate when i see people putting brutal Doom above original. Mods which keeps vanilla feel are great for variation, i don't have anything against them.

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11 hours ago, Rimantas said:

I play only original Doom and its engine's games, in vanilla way with Choco Doom. No mods can make something better in a perfect game. For example that lame brutal Doom is interesting from technical side only, but it's not Doom.

You make that statement as if everyone totally agrees with you. The way I see it, *all* mods are in the spirit of Classic Doom, since Doom was released with the ability to play mods. Sure, a mod like Brutal Doom requires enhancements to the original engine, but, again, the engine was released to be modded, just like it was designed to load mods. That's what Doom's all about.

 

Unless you only play id's original 68 maps, you play mods too. Sure, you can put labels on it, like "changes gameplay drastically", but every mod changes Doom's gameplay. The fact that people have tons of options for how they enjoy Doom is a strength of the game, not a weakness. Why should anyone be upset with how someone else enjoys the game? It's cool that Doom can do all of these things now. And it will continue to be able to do this and more, while still being able to play the original game.

 

I am at a loss to understand how that can be a problem for anyone... I'm not saying you have to like Brutal Doom, or any other mod. It's not like you have to play it. But why would it bother you that other people can enjoy playing it?

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Eh, I guess it's good that Brutal Doom exists to bring more people to a game who might not play it otherwise. But it seems like the purpose of Brutal Doom is mainly to make Doom more like contemporary FPS games and, as someone who rarely enjoys FPS games and who plays Doom because of how it's different from the rest the genre that followed it, it's hard to like Brutal Doom at all. 

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Voted both under the assumption that custom levels are also considered "mods" but if you strictly mean gameplay mod type stuff, without mods.

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4 hours ago, meapineapple said:

Eh, I guess it's good that Brutal Doom exists to bring more people to a game who might not play it otherwise. But it seems like the purpose of Brutal Doom is mainly to make Doom more like contemporary FPS games and, as someone who rarely enjoys FPS games and who plays Doom because of how it's different from the rest the genre that followed it, it's hard to like Brutal Doom at all. 

Brutal Doom is just one guy's vision of what would be fun and cool to do with Doom...just like most all mods are. Personally, I like the gore effects, and don't care as much for the gameplay changes. But I love the fact that it exists, cause that does a few things:

  • It shows off what modern Doom can be made to do.
  • It inspires lovers of those "contemporary FPS" games you mention, to try Doom modding.
  • As you mentioned, it brings more people to Doom.
  • Bugs were fixed, and useful features were added to ports like GZDoom, specifically because Brutal Doom needed them.
  • It houses some resources I can snag and use - let's be honest.
  • Most of all, it proves that one guy, in his basement, can create a massively immersive experience within a reasonable amount of time.

I don't have to like it to appreciate it. Most all mods have a profound and lasting beneficial effect on Doom as a whole, in one way or another.

 

Consider NUTS.WAD: Pretty crazy, and nearly unplayable. Made as a joke. However, because of NUTS.WAD, engines like PrBoom+ fixed an obscure MBF bug that was causing slowdowns in every game. Because of NUTS.WAD, many engines run *A LOT* faster, which benefits everyone.

 

I will never understand purely negative comments (not yours, meapineapple) designed to stifle creativity. Such comments have cascading effects that eventually damage everyone, even just a little bit. Yes, I'm rambling. When you tend to think "big picture", it's these types of things that bother you.

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2 hours ago, StevenC21 said:

@kb1 Can you elaborate on this bug that was fixed due to NUTS.WAD?

 

Also, please @ me in your response or I am likely to miss it.

@StevenC21 Not well - I haven't researched it to my satisfaction yet. From what I can remember, MBF split up its actor list into 'classes', making parsing through the list faster. I can't remember exactly, but I think a bug related with this process caused the game to iterate through this list far too often (like many times per frame).

 

I am really hoping someone can explain this much better than I can. What I *do* remember is that entryway commented about this in either the PrBoom+ thread, in his source code, or in the source code online history file.

 

I never split up my actor list, so didn't have to fix it in my port, but I do plan on doing something similar, so I'll eventually get around to understanding it :)

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Yeah, actually.  The originals hold up well- the only gripe I have is a very common one; I really dislike the level design, and to a lesser degree, the weapon/monster imbalance introduced in Doom2.

There's something about the pixel art of that era that really stands the test of time- particularly Doom's style is what I consider to be the sweet spot.  Any farther back (Wolfenstein) and it's too cartoony and primitive.  Any further ahead (Unreal '98, Goldeneye) and it's too polygonal... and primitive.

 

Spoiler

Tangent time!

Before ya'll come frothing and foaming, those games were good for their time.  I spent more than my share of time shooting the shit out of my friends in Goldeneye, I modded the HELL out of Unreal (God I wish I remembered what my old maps were called) and Wolfenstein was my introduction to PC gaming.

But sorry, you cannot with a straight face tell me that you legit love going back and playing goldeneye.  You just can't.  No fucking way.  NOTHING about that game holds up, it's one of the ugliest things to come out of the N64, the controls are an abomination, and not even the soundtrack is good.

 

I am still a pretty big fan of Unreal '98, but it just doesn't have the same timelessness about it.  You fire it up, and after googling why it runs at 5 million FPS and how to fix it, you get nostalgia feels... but it wears off pretty quick as the gameplay isn't really spectacular.  The soundtrack is probably the only thing that holds up.

Wolfenstein was revolutionary, but dude.  It ain't fun.


The music in UD is timeless as hell, it's honestly one of the best video game soundtracks of all time.  Right up there with FF6/7, Super Mario World, etc.

 

But, really it's all about the gameplay, right?  They really knocked it out of the park there.  Simplicity in design, good weapon/monster balance (again, D2 kinda threw this off a bit, but not too bad), excellent level design (for the most part), the movement speed and scale.  Honestly, it's justtttt about perfect in that regard.

The point is, yeah.  I can fire up the originals and still have a damn good time.  I think if they didn't hold up, we wouldn't- 25 years later- have young kids hitting the mapping and modding scene. 

 

And isn't there something to be said about that alone?  What nostalgia does a 16 year old have for Doom?  Why on earth would they care about a game that's a quarter of a century old, unless it was legitimately good in it's original form?

Edited by Antnee

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