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The-Heretic-Assassin

Do People Really Like Classic Doom For What It Is?

People Playing Doom With or Without Mods  

237 members have voted

  1. 1. Would You Play Classic Doom With Mods or On Its Own?

    • With Mods
      12
    • Without Mods
      70
    • Both
      155


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9 hours ago, kb1 said:

You make that statement as if everyone totally agrees with you.

My bad i forgot to say "for me".

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1 hour ago, Antnee said:

There's something about the pixel art of that era that really stands the test of time- particularly Doom's style is what I consider to be the sweet spot. [...] Any further ahead (Unreal '98, Goldeneye) and it's too polygonal... and primitive.

 

I'll personally take Quake's polygonal glory over Doom's 2D sprites any day.

 

1 hour ago, Antnee said:

I am still a pretty big fan of Unreal '98, but it just doesn't have the same timelessness about it.  You fire it up, and after googling why it runs at 5 million FPS and how to fix it, you get nostalgia feels... but it wears off pretty quick as the gameplay isn't really spectacular.

 

Its gameplay may not be as fluid as Doom's, but it still shows how much of a threat a single enemy with good AI can be. It makes every encounter hold some weight, as you can't just fire a couple shots at most enemies and forget about them. Besides, its atmosphere and sense of location is actually timeless, IMO.

 

1 hour ago, Antnee said:

Wolfenstein was revolutionary, but dude.  It ain't fun.

 

Some people (not me) would like to have a word with you.

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6 minutes ago, KVELLER said:

I'll personally take Quake's polygonal glory over Doom's 2D sprites any day.

 

Can't believe I didn't mention Quake... It's probably as close as you can get to a polygonal game that sort of still looks good in that retro sort of way.

I don't know.  I'm conflicted.  I actually do like the atmosphere of quake a bit better (I guess that's why I favor D64).  But I'm not sure it "holds up" as well as Doom.

 

6 minutes ago, KVELLER said:

Its gameplay may not be as fluid as Doom's, but it still shows how much of a threat a single enemy with good AI can be. It makes every encounter hold some weight, as you can't just fire a couple shots at most enemies and forget about them. Besides, its atmosphere and sense of location is actually timeless, IMO.

 

When was the last time you played Unreal?  The AI was good, no, great for its time... but now?  A Skaarj strafe-wiggling back and forth isn't good AI. 

Atmosphere is what I will give you, but I honestly wonder if that's just nostalgia glasses.  I was completely blown away by the ambient sound effects in that game, and when I upgraded to a VooDoo3 and actually got to see the reflections etc for the first time, I couldn't imagine how graphics could improve from there.

But I do have to wonder what a young person would think, not having grown up with it (and the technology, really)

 

6 minutes ago, KVELLER said:

Some people (not me) would like to have a word with you.

 

If that word is "repetitive", "tedious", or "ugly" then they can have all the words they want.  There's a reason why there isn't a gigantic modding community for Wolfenstein.  It's inferior in every possible way to... well, basically any FPS of its era.  It's a prototype- a historically valuable one.  But a prototype.

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1 hour ago, Antnee said:

When was the last time you played Unreal?

 

A couple months ago :)

 

1 hour ago, Antnee said:

The AI was good, no, great for its time... but now?  A Skaarj strafe-wiggling back and forth isn't good AI.

 

Ok, maybe "good" wasn't the right word, but still, it's miles ahead of Doom's and I think it compliments the game's otherwise lackluster combat.

 

1 hour ago, Antnee said:

Atmosphere is what I will give you, but I honestly wonder if that's just nostalgia glasses.  I was completely blown away by the ambient sound effects in that game, and when I upgraded to a VooDoo3 and actually got to see the reflections etc for the first time, I couldn't imagine how graphics could improve from there.

But I do have to wonder what a young person would think, not having grown up with it (and the technology, really)

 

Here's the thing: I'm that young person. I played Unreal for the first time five or six years ago, right after game graphics started to enter their current pseudo-photorelistic state. My laptop's integrated graphics chipset wouldn't do much more than shrug at the game's technology, and I could very easily notice that those massive mountains were made of a handful of polygons, but that first sight of Na Pali was a memorable one regardless.

 

Sorry for the derailing, everyone.

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I don't think it's derailing at all.  Examining whether or not a game is enjoyable almost requires that you put that game into context... which is really all we're doing.

I'm intrigued that you legit enjoy Unreal despite having not grown up with it.  Surprising!

I mean it is a good game, I just personally don't see the (massive) charm in it that I used to.

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2 minutes ago, Antnee said:

I mean it is a good game, I just personally don't see the (massive) charm in it that I used to.

 

Fair enough. Not everyone thinks the same way at the end of the day.

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Vanilla Doom was special in it's day but it's outdated now. However the CONCEPT AND DESIGN AND GAMEPLAY still stand till this this day. That's why we are all still here, right? These days i play most wads with Brutal Doom. It's the right kind of update that doesn't take away from the original vanilla vibe but adds just enough in terms of detail / lighting / graphics etc. 

Doom is amazing and every wad truly feels unique. That's why i keep playing this game. No other game this old has a website / following like this. It's phenomenal. 

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Yes, it is outdated, but i think it's still special. I don't know any other FPS with such simple gameplay that is so fun and addictive even to this day. Weapons, monsters, maps, sounds, effects fits so perfectly together that i don't know how vanilla (Choco) Doom could be better.

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20 hours ago, Space Marinara said:

My post no longer has context as the opening one has been changed a number of times. Originally it was a poorly disguised literary snort of derision against anyone who disagrees with them and was the antithesis of 'civility'.

That's not what the topic was supposed to be about. I told you many times the post was about if people like Doom as how it is or if they just played it for mods.

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13 hours ago, Space Marinara said:

Maybe I should start a poll...

 

Or maybe you and @The-Heretic-Assassin could stop discussing this already. Sorry if I sound rude, but you guys have been into this for 4 pages and haven't gone anywhere, and I doubt you will.

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9 hours ago, KVELLER said:

Sorry if I sound rude

No apologies necessary! I was done with this long ago. I keep getting dragged back to the thread when other people understandably question my old (and now confusing) posts. Then The-Heretic-Assassin piles on to complete the circle.

 

I've made up my mind and against reasonable conscience I've decided to remove my earlier posts.

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Just for the record, the original OP was definitely inflammatory. Whether intentionally so, is harder to say. Over and out.

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On 10/17/2018 at 10:36 AM, PeterMoro said:

Vanilla Doom was special in it's day but it's outdated now.

Why? Because it's 25? Doom ports are compiled daily, to this day. Doom mods are built to this day. Is Ms. Pac-Man outdated? How about chess? Is chess outdated?

 

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3 hours ago, kb1 said:

Why? Because it's 25? Doom ports are compiled daily, to this day. Doom mods are built to this day. Is Ms. Pac-Man outdated? How about chess? Is chess outdated?

 

Are you implying that if DOOM were released in 2018 it would be as successful as it was in 1993?

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4 hours ago, PeterMoro said:

Are you implying that if DOOM were released in 2018 it would be as successful as it was in 1993?

 

That's sort of a strange question, since arguably Doom made the FPS genre.  It would be competing with a genre that is already pretty saturated- wasn't the case in '93.

But I bet it would be pretty successful, given the proliferation of pixel art retro games on Steam.

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19 hours ago, PeterMoro said:

Are you implying that if DOOM were released in 2018 it would be as successful as it was in 1993?

Commercial success is not something I use to measure worth. Neither is the release date.

 

But I admit that if something seems to be popular, yes, that makes it worth checking into. But the opposite is rarely true.

 

I have 75 year old tools in my garage that still blow away any modern replacement you can buy. Older rarely means 'outdated', and in many cases older is better. The technology being employed by today's games did not exist in '93. For what it does - render 3D-like environments with sprites, completely in software - I'd say Doom is still the best.

 

I have a 73 Gran Torino Super Sport with a 528, high performance roller cam, electronic ignition, cop shocks, cop brakes, positraction rear-end, 3" dual exhaust. Maybe you'd call it "outdated", but I bet it burns the doors off of anything you put it up against.

 

Respect your elders. Respect quality workmanship. The internet has turned a lot of kids into spastic, desensitized robots, craving the next big thrill that lasts a few minutes. I see the new game reviews on some of these AAA beautiful, amazing, massive new games built by teams numbering into 3 digits. The things being done in these games are nothing short of miraculous, and they get cut to shreds by these adrenaline junkie kids that blaze through the game, chewing it up and spitting it out. They also claim that 2 year-old titles are outdated. What does that even mean?

 

Maybe I overreacted to your post - sorry about that. But I can't support the claim that something that's awesome when it's released does not remain awesome, regardless of its age.

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A lot of games that were awesome for their time do age, though. Just look at Goldeneye, Starfox and Mortal Kombat 1.

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On 10/19/2018 at 4:12 PM, kb1 said:

Older rarely means 'outdated', and in many cases older is better. The technology being employed by today's games did not exist in '93. For what it does - render 3D-like environments with sprites, completely in software - I'd say Doom is still the best.

 

Respect your elders. Respect quality workmanship. The internet has turned a lot of kids into spastic, desensitized robots, craving the next big thrill that lasts a few minutes. I see the new game reviews on some of these AAA beautiful, amazing, massive new games built by teams numbering into 3 digits. The things being done in these games are nothing short of miraculous, and they get cut to shreds by these adrenaline junkie kids that blaze through the game, chewing it up and spitting it out. They also claim that 2 year-old titles are outdated. What does that even mean?

This thread is all over the place.

 

Anyway I think your comment is weird. Unless I'm misinterpreting, you seem to think AAA video game companies are crafting beautiful, intensely rich gaming experiences that the kids these days don't seem to appreciate due to lack of any bombast. That's ridiculous. The main issue with AAA companies right now, by far, is their lack of patience when it comes to game design. Unfinished consoles seem to come out every six months for no reason, video game development is rushed and few games are greenlit that aren't big blockbuster action adventure games, two factors that result in sloppy releases without much meaningful content, and an over emphasis on spectacle means most games are painfully easy. Sure they have lots of glammer but they're shallow half the time.

 

So, logically, what are those adrenaline fueled kids these days getting into?

 

What? Mostly indie games, such as Undertale, FNaF and Minecraft? Games made by at most 3 dozen people, with low technical fidelity?

 

Huh.

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2 hours ago, EtherBot said:

This thread is all over the place.

 

Anyway I think your comment is weird. Unless I'm misinterpreting, you seem to think AAA video game companies are crafting beautiful, intensely rich gaming experiences that the kids these days don't seem to appreciate due to lack of any bombast. That's ridiculous. The main issue with AAA companies right now, by far, is their lack of patience when it comes to game design. Unfinished consoles seem to come out every six months for no reason, video game development is rushed and few games are greenlit that aren't big blockbuster action adventure games, two factors that result in sloppy releases without much meaningful content, and an over emphasis on spectacle means most games are painfully easy. Sure they have lots of glammer but they're shallow half the time.

 

So, logically, what are those adrenaline fueled kids these days getting into?

 

What? Mostly indie games, such as Undertale, FNaF and Minecraft? Games made by at most 3 dozen people, with low technical fidelity?

 

Huh.

Fair enough. My comments probably are somewhat weird, and even an overreaction. But, not ridiculous. And, you're right: companies release their buggy wares too soon, which is shameful. Why? Because clearly, a ton of work was done, in almost every case, on all of them.

 

There's a lot to appreciate in these titles. I'm not sure that the developers have much choice in the environment in which they are expected to pull off miracles. Nowadays, not only do they have to create hyper-realistic video, audio, physics, unique music. They also need to eliminate enough bugs to keep these massive, realtime engines afloat - engines packed with geometry, advanced memory management, synchronized network communications, massive meshes of polygons being manipulated by realistic physics calculations... bla bla. Each of these engines are not totally unique, but largely they are.

 

Now, on top of all that, the game has to be fun. Yeah. Yes, there's lots of blame to go around. But absolute perfection? Cause, unless you've got that, modern gamers chew you up and spit you out. I never understood the severity of the reviews of these rushed monsters.

 

The stuff you can buy for $50 today was simply impossible a few years back. But, now that it is, I guess everything before it is outdated. And, in a couple of years, today's games will be called outdated.

 

By these standards, games are never "in date". All games, past, present, and future all suck? That's pretty bleak. And the gamers? To me, they seem like starved, spoiled kids, hence my comments. It doesn't seem like a healthy way to see the world. Maybe I'm seeing the attitudes of the reviewers the same way they see their games. I'm not trying to place blame. Again, I overreacted when I read that Doom is outdated. To me, "outdated" suggests that it's been surpassed by something newer, something better. If so, why post here?

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On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 4:36 PM, PeterMoro said:

Vanilla Doom was special in it's day but it's outdated now. However the CONCEPT AND DESIGN AND GAMEPLAY still stand till this this day. That's why we are all still here, right? These days i play most wads with Brutal Doom. It's the right kind of update that doesn't take away from the original vanilla vibe but adds just enough in terms of detail / lighting / graphics etc. 

Doom is amazing and every wad truly feels unique. That's why i keep playing this game. No other game this old has a website / following like this. It's phenomenal. 

 

Am I the only one who think Brutal Doom is disgusting, and the flashy and noisy gore takes away all the atmosphere and fun from the game?

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8 hours ago, kb1 said:

To me, "outdated" suggests that it's been surpassed by something newer, something better. If so, why post here?

That's a really unhealthy way to think about art. Something can be technically surpassed and still have its own value just by existing. There are plenty of comedies funnier than Ghostbusters, and plenty of horror comedies with a better balance than Ghostbusters. Ghostbusters has been surpassed, but it's still worth talking about. Not just because it's old and formative or whatever, either. Ghostbusters would be worth talking about if it came out tomorrow.

 

Being perfectly honest, there are games that nail horror action leagues better than Doom. There are games with more immersive graphics, faster, more engaging gunplay, more fluid level design, better encounters, nicer looking monsters, etc. Doom is, compared to the sum of its predecessors, objectively inferior. It does just about everything worse. Doom is outdated. It doesn't really have a choice about that. But, say it with me, Doom is still a valuable product. In fact it holds up remarkably well just on account of being internally consistent. All the elements mesh which is what actually makes something timeless.

 

To assume art can become superfluous is ludicrous, and I think your strong reaction to the idea of it happening to a thing you love is because you can already tell that the concept is inherently terrifying.

 

8 hours ago, kb1 said:

There's a lot to appreciate in these titles. I'm not sure that the developers have much choice in the environment in which they are expected to pull off miracles. Nowadays, not only do they have to create hyper-realistic video, audio, physics, unique music. They also need to eliminate enough bugs to keep these massive, realtime engines afloat...

I don't have much to say about how games take a ton of effort to create which goes largely unappreciated. In my experience, at least, kids these days don't honestly care about graphics or technical fidelity. They'll definitely notice when a game is older but aside from a token mention of it, it usually don't actually 'bother' them. Again, that's just my personal experience.

 

I think the issue with game-making being a thankless job is largely the fault of marketing more than anything. A single two-year game cycle today would have taken a decade in the 90s, but video games aren't being sold as massive multi-media powerhouses of expression. They're being sold exactly the same way they were being sold in the 90s.

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3 hours ago, Nancsi said:

 

Am I the only one who think Brutal Doom is disgusting, and the flashy and noisy gore takes away all the atmosphere and fun from the game?

I like the gore, but I dislike how every weapon seems to be some kind of variation on the rocket launcher, what with all the pyrotechnics being thrown around.

 

Also, I hate it that Doomguy makes sounds that aren't just pain grunts.

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On 10/19/2018 at 8:42 PM, MaxTrevors said:

No, we hate it. We've just been pretending this whole time to seem cool.

o be fair, this is reasonable question to ask in light Of some players' preferences for level design, some levels in the classic games contain elements that some disapprove of


 

Spoiler

 

-inescapable pits

 

-low difficulty (compated to modern maps)

 

-puzzles

 

-mandatory "secrets"

 

-platforming

 

-misaligned textures

 

-ammo starvation for players who don't know a good route or find secrets

 

-levels not designed for pistol start (ammo for weapons not present)

 

-archviles without cover (if TNT counts)

 

 

this said, I don't think there many people here dislike classic doom, but you can see where thread author is coming from

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Classic is one of the best ways to play.
Don't get me wrong, I love Doom (2016) in terms of visuals and game play, It gave the franchise a good modern outright FPS gore fest and put the games back in the spotlight of gaming.
Doom 3 was pretty good horror game but forgettable as a shooter, credit to id for trying something different.
But Doom and Doom 2 were the games that made shooters, it was smooth, fast paced, and just plain fun.
That said, I don't mind Brutal Doom or Project Brutality, but sometimes I just want to play classic without even using GZDoom, just DOSBox.

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44 minutes ago, FractalBeast said:

Also, I hate it that Doomguy makes sounds that aren't just pain grunts.

I agree. It was funny and cool that Doomguy made some catchphrases in the comic, but in BD it just seems cringy and sort of out of place. It's so much better when Doomguy is a silent protagonist.

 

Brutal Doom isn't a bad mod, but imo it's overrated and just adds too much stuff.

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4 hours ago, Nancsi said:

 

Am I the only one who think Brutal Doom is disgusting, and the flashy and noisy gore takes away all the atmosphere and fun from the game?

brutal Doom is garbage. creation of sick, insane dummy.

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3 minutes ago, Rimantas said:

brutal Doom is garbage. creation of sick, insane dummy.

I'm far from a fan of brutal doom for my own reasons, but since you're calling a modder (and a group of people who contributed resources and code) who made something lots of people seem to enjoy "dummy", might we have a look at your amazing mods/maps/anything-doom-related?

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40 minutes ago, Rimantas said:

brutal Doom is garbage. creation of sick, insane dummy.

 

A bit overrated? Yes, as there are better mods like D4T, QCDE, Wrath of Cronos etc

BUT saying that it is garbage is UTTERLY STUPID. There is a REASON why it has a huge following. I m not praising SgtMarkIV here as i am aware of his bad deeds but hating something because it is COOL to hate popular stuff is moronic. Its okay to not be a BD fan but shitting on it because it is not to your taste is dumb.

 

5 hours ago, Nancsi said:

 

Am I the only one who think Brutal Doom is disgusting, and the flashy and noisy gore takes away all the atmosphere and fun from the game?

 

Luckily in BDv21 you can configure the gore amount to very low as opposed to previous versions. SgtMarkIV added this primarily for providing better performance in slaughterfest maps. Otherwise if ur just hating it for the sake of hating, then see my reply to Rimantus.

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