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Alfonzo

The DWIronman League dies to: Doom 64 for Doom 2

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Apologies for the complete lack of attention given to the OP in September. I know some of you like reading the obituaries! Rather than scramble back over the old demos I think I'll just concede defeat and focus on the month ahead.

 

Good luck, all! Go team @Suitepee!

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This looks like it might be fun, but I doubt I'll place well.

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Would you look at that, gonna be a Category 2 this time since I have recently played D64D2.

 

I wonder how quickly I'll die xdd.

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5 hours ago, Alfonzo said:

 

  1. For the average Cat 1/2 player, surviving the set should take about 3-4 hours.

 

Wishful thinking :-P

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I'll do this mapset at this saturday or sunday (as long as I don't get interrupted argh!!!(yes, that happens to me sometimes)). Funny thing is, I know Doom 64 but I haven't played this variation of the original thing, so, technically this should be a blind gameplay for me...not going prepared this time cuz yolo!!!

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Posted (edited)

Died at the end of Map 6.

Category 2, I guess. I've played Doom 64 before, but I get lost outside of the first several maps, so I never really played it beyond that.

d62d2rev.zip

Edited by Revved

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OH SHIT BOI, gonna jump on this one for sure.

 

One question though - there are alternate versions of some maps in the wad for Boom-compatible ports; are these taken into consideration? I was going to run with PrBoom+ as per usual, but I wasn't sure if playing with complevel 2 would just load the vanilla versions when appropriate or not.

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1 hour ago, Aquila Chrysaetos said:

MAP29.

 

GG, that's quite the performance.

 

Welp, at least I know who I won't race against, no way I'll make it that far.

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Cat 1, played this on TNS ages ago and don't remember anything except for the thing that killed me so fuck it.

6 minutes ago, JudgeDeadd said:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/pz28nlq3iv7c3xx/DWIronman27_JudgeDeadd-1.lmp/file

MAP02. Died because of an instadeath trap. Hey, fuck you too, mapper.

Cat 1.

Same. This is the first time in a while I've been actually legit fucked off by Ironman, and frankly if it weren't for the fact I've participated in every session I wouldn't have bothered submitting this.

 

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Posted (edited)

EDIT EDIT: OKAY WHOOPS NEVERMIND DNF WAS CAUSED BY ME USING KILL MONSTERS RESUME NORMAL OPERATION

 

though the trap in question is significantly unfair. because of this, I will provide you with a spoiler.

 

Spoiler

MAP02, blue key room. After you hit a switch, four doors open, each with a long corridor with a switch in the end. One of the switches lowers the blue key, the other three are traps. Those who have played original D64 could probably remember the traps being fast crushers that take 20 damage off you each, so, with high health, they could try to just guess the correct switch if they can't think up of a clue.

 

In this wad, hitting the wrong switch will instantly kill you with a slow crusher, save not allowed.

 

The clue is the floor flat. One of them will be water, rest three will be acid. The acid corridors will crush you. The water corridor will not.

 

Edited by HexaDoken

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I'll wait on Alfonzo's verdict before doing my run because the mostly flawed execution of that trap (as I've read) seems to be extremely and unfairly hazardous to any player, not just blind players. 

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19 minutes ago, NaZa said:

I'll wait on Alfonzo's verdict before doing my run because the mostly flawed execution of that trap (as I've read) seems to be extremely and unfairly hazardous to any player, not just blind players. 

 

That trap is supposed to be lethal in the original as far as I remember, but you can easily tell which switch is the right one because it looks different from all the others. Not much of a trap there.

 

Here however, after watching Erris' video I've noticed they all look the same, something I completely missed the first time I played it. Indeed, a rather poor execution in comparison...

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I saw the trap for myself and I can conclude it's utter bullshit, but at least there's a consistent way of doing it. It's not broken at all; no need to fix anything. From all the tries I did (after shooting in the first room, that is!) I always sprung the trap.

 

Also @Mechadon that's insane vanilla stuff! Pushing the limits of possibility to the max, even though it's a bit confusing. 

 

I don't know does that make me cat 1, 2 or 3 now.

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The trap is not lethal in vanilla doom 64. On a wrong guess, you get fastcrushed for 20 damage. That is all.

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It's easier to solve the trap if you get a light amp visor before going in.

 

Anyway, here's my category 2 run.  Ended my own misery on MAP06 because of that damn switch puzzle.

 

d64d2.zip

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Agent6 said:

 

That trap is supposed to be lethal in the original as far as I remember, but you can easily tell which switch is the right one because it looks different from all the others. Not much of a trap there.

 

Here however, after watching Erris' video I've noticed they all look the same, something I completely missed the first time I played it. Indeed, a rather poor execution in comparison...

 

Spoiler

One of them (selected randomly) has a blue floor. Of course mine was IN THE FUCKING CORNER so I whizzed past it without noticing, you see it briefly at 5:39 in my video - I saw nukage in the pthers and that's not a detail I feel like I'd normally have any reason to pay attention to. Fuck's sake.

 

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Just now, Eris Falling said:

 

  Hide contents

One of them (selected randomly) has a blue floor. Of course mine was IN THE FUCKING CORNER so I whizzed past it without noticing - I saw nukage in the center two and that's not a detail I feel like I'd normally have any reason to pay attention to. Fuck's sake.

 

 

9 minutes ago, HexaDoken said:

The trap is not lethal in vanilla doom 64. On a wrong guess, you get fastcrushed for 20 damage. That is all.

 

Aw, god damn it, memory really fails me these days -__-, I was wrong about both things.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, that trap's a doozy. After the crusher shenanigans of DTWiD and Insertion I made a commitment to avoid circumstances where long, relatively easy runs could be upset by unintuitive design. This is the sort of thing I wanted to avoid! I simply didn't notice it because... well, I hadn't the mind to test every trap I already knew the solution to.

 

My main misgiving about this setup is that it's both an instant death trap and the first instance to require the player's puzzle-solving skills. Agent6 notes that it's not much of a trap anyway, since it's easily detected if you just hold up for a moment, but because it's the first such case you're likely to pull an Eris and barrel past it. Had it come after any other less punishing trap I'd have happily chastised the player for not going at the suggested pace, but god dammit you can't learn from a mistake if you're dead.

 

Selecting Ironman challenges is a tricky business. Can't win 'em all, I guess.

Edited by Alfonzo : Clarification.

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It's also toward the beginning, so it's not like it's going to trash a stellar run.

Going in blind will make it more difficult, but you're right that it's easily detected if you slow down for just a second.

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4 hours ago, Bashe said:

One question though - there are alternate versions of some maps in the wad for Boom-compatible ports; are these taken into consideration? I was going to run with PrBoom+ as per usual, but I wasn't sure if playing with complevel 2 would just load the vanilla versions when appropriate or not.

 

Hey, Bashe. I believe there actually isn't a way to load the boom-specific maps in prboom+ as part of the same set, regardless of the complevel, so you should have no worries, here. The difference between the two versions as far as I know is in how the game handles the execution of certain scripts using voodoo dolls. ZDoom derivatives obviously get there via MAPINFO and Eternity can jump there as well, albeit manually, so they'll have a more robust experience. The demo folks will just have to grit their teeth and suffer a few clunky barrel blasts when using the terraformer :)

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Oh okay, I was thinking Boom also loaded them up but this makes sense.

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The real stupid part is that this trap isn't even instakill in the vanilla game, so anybody who played it, sees the new puzzle, is trying for a good time, and can't immediately spot the clue might just think "Hey, I remember this trap, it only did like 20 damage and I'm stacked on health, I should be fine if I just press randomly!". And then you die.

 

Hell, as questionable as doom64 level design was, I can't remember any single instance of an insta-kill trap of any kind in the entirety of it save for Hectic, which is a super secret level and noted to be deliberately unfair. So coming from that here, having an insta-kill puzzle sprung on you on the very second level is... jarring, to say the least.

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Don't feel like screenshooting at all. Managed to escape something that will definitely kill blind players in MAP06 (which I suspect will be The Map), had 29 HP at the end, decided to rush in, greeted by flamebois who pushed me into an inescapable pit. Thanks D64. Very cool! Ironic that I've been pushed there by a monster who wasn't there in the first place, as I'm informed.

 

Category 1, 2 or 3? I don't know. I checked out the MAP02 trap because it was very controversial. Upon seeing it, I realized I probably would have been able to get through it blind. Other than that I've done nothing else, I've never played Doom64 apart from knowing how to access Hectic and watching a playthrough of Hectic. That obviously didn't help me. I'd say it's a category 1 run as scouting that trap didn't help me too much.

 

Also it's the second (21) time this year I've died to an inescapable pit. Fourth (22) time in toxic liquid. Eight (23) time because of stupidity. So I've died two times stupidly to inescapable death pits. Great!

 

MAP06. Don't rush to the exit.

 

 

ironoct18_naza.zip

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Posted (edited)

@Revved Your demo desyncs on the first map on my side, all the other ones seem to work fine.

 

EDIT: The first map is beaten when I load it with v1.1 of D64D2, but MAP02 inexplicably desyncs. Could you please say what version you recorded this with? DEH?

Edited by NaZa

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, NaZa said:

@Revved Your demo desyncs on the first map on my side, all the other ones seem to work fine.

 

EDIT: The first map is beaten when I load it with v1.1 of D64D2, but MAP02 inexplicably desyncs. Could you please say what version you recorded this with? DEH?

My version of the WAD is dated 7/13/2018, 2:39 PM. DEH is dated 7/6/2018, 8:20 PM.

I believe it's the initial version of the WAD released on that day as well, so I imagine it would be 1.0.0.

Edited by Revved

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6 hours ago, NaZa said:

Category 1, 2 or 3? I don't know. I checked out the MAP02 trap because it was very controversial.

 

This is textbook cat 3 under the current system. I know you weren't looking to cover much ground and that even stream viewers can gather more information before attempting a cat 2 run, but since we're looking to remove as much gray area as possible; you were inspecting the design of the level without declaring a run. I think in that situation we should just accept that there are no half measures and commit to preparing.

 

Also, a quick word on streamers and categories. I noticed in Suitepee's coverage of MAP20 last month that he acknowledged some assistance by chat but still declared a cat 1 stream. Certainly knowing that there's a secret invul nearby, in this instance, does sully the blindness and bump the run into cat 2... but I'm very wary of creating tension between streamers and their audience by having the performer constantly need to remind everyone of what sort of foreknowledge he/she has, and then praying that everyone got the memo before glancing at chat. If audiences were bigger and the league more popular, I'd encourage streamers to get a moderator on board so that they can cherry-pick comments and protect the sanctity of blindness. As it is, that's too big an ask, so I'm happy to just accept whatever category you select as it stood before starting the stream.

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8 minutes ago, Alfonzo said:

This is textbook cat 3 under the current system. I know you weren't looking to cover much ground and that even stream viewers can gather more information before attempting a cat 2 run, but since we're looking to remove as much gray area as possible; you were inspecting the design of the level without declaring a run. I think in that situation we should just accept that there are no half measures and commit to preparing.

 

I've been thinking about this recently, especially given all the discussion about Cat 3 last month. This is my assessment. Let me know if I'm wrong or if I've missed something.

 

Category 1: Blind/Virtually No Foreknowledge

  • You've never played the levels before recording your demo/stream.
  • You played the levels or watched a stream of them, but this happened was so long ago (or you were so drunk/high/etc.) that you don't really remember anything of value.

Category 2: Some Amount of Foreknowledge of What is to Come

  • You've played the levels before and remember enough to be advantaged over someone in Category 1.
  • You've watched streams or demos of the levels recently enough that you remember at least part of them.
  • You've never opened the maps in an editor or actively practiced them prior to your run.

Category 3: You Have Prepared for Your Run

  • You opened the levels in an editor to look at them. This automatically qualifies you for Category 3 regardless of whatever else you have done or how much you looked at.
  • You have practiced for your run at least once, regardless of how well you actually performed during the practice run or runs.
  • You have played the levels so much that you know them very well (for example, ZeroMaster and Plutonia).

 

Here's where I wonder about some gray areas.

  • Suppose I play the levels on a lower difficulty prior to the run. Does that count as Category 2 or 3?
  • Suppose I load the levels toward the beginning of the month and just play them for fun a few times and then record a demo/stream towards the end of the month. Does that count as Category 2 or 3?

Perhaps it's all semantics, but I was thinking about this, and I thought I would bring it up with the ultimate authority on the matter.

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