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Kore

Level design tropes you use

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Dark maps

Lots of little / medium rooms

Some little sector art / detailing works

Lots of light works

Interconnected rooms via windows (mostly on 64 height size, but it depends of the rooms eight)

Ending the map almost always with a enemy in it (easy monster on easy difficulty, a reverant on medium and a arch-vile on difficult)

Secrets are done in the iwad way

Some original iwad maps tribute here and there

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I always start my maps with the player facing north and usually at the southernmost point of the map for some reason, maybe it just helps me map better or something, you can see it in every one of the few maps I've actually released so far and in the WIP pics of the overviews of the ones I didn't/haven't yet.

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I tend to work less with complex level geometry and more with custom tailored textures for each specific scene. I also tend to place Cacodemons in pairs for some reason (Everyone needs a friend am I right?)

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5 hours ago, Batandy said:

I also tend to place Cacodemons in pairs for some reason

 

That's not a bad idea, especially if you place them in such a way they just don't approach you in a single file line. If you're facing only 1 cacodemon (or if only 1 can attack you), then you can just train your chaingun/plasma gun/chainsaw/weapon of choice on it and effectively keep it from counterattacking due to its rather high pain chance (and the fact that a chainsaw makes it turn away from you). If you have 2 cacodemons, you can't just train your fire one of them, because the other will be able to attack, so it requires a bit more strategy.

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18 hours ago, Pegleg said:

(and the fact that a chainsaw makes it turn away from you).

It's actually just a 'side effect' of Doom's AI and monsters with no melee attack (well Caco's will perform a melee attack if they attempt to fire a projectile at close range, but hopefully you get what I mean; monsters with no melee attack like an Imp has).

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On 10/14/2018 at 1:06 AM, Pegleg said:

 

That's not a bad idea, especially if you place them in such a way they just don't approach you in a single file line. If you're facing only 1 cacodemon (or if only 1 can attack you), then you can just train your chaingun/plasma gun/chainsaw/weapon of choice on it and effectively keep it from counterattacking due to its rather high pain chance (and the fact that a chainsaw makes it turn away from you). If you have 2 cacodemons, you can't just train your fire one of them, because the other will be able to attack, so it requires a bit more strategy.

 

The answer to "how do I make this caco fight more interesting?" is pretty much always "add more cacos".

 

 

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I have a fight in Eviternity MAP20 (soon to be released, yay!) which is a swarm of cacos and chaingunners. The red invasion if you will. Works really nicely, you end up using the cacos as meatshields, having to weave in and out of them while you pick off each of the chaingunners.

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I agree with Marcaek, Capellan, and SteveD's take on automap cleaning.

 

On 10/8/2018 at 9:35 PM, Grain of Salt said:

Automap cleaning is dumb. It'll just confuse the player because the geometry they know exists won't be appearing on the map.

 

When I mentioned cleaning the automap, what I was talking about cleaning up were details that don't really add anything to the understanding of the map and just serve to clutter it. The immediate thing that comes to mind are details of fixtures on the ceiling. You could make a highly detailed ceiling fixture and all those sectors would just add visual clutter to that section of map. I like a map that conveys the information that you need without a lot of extra information that is, essentially, just noise.

 

I was not implying that I think you should remove features like steps or windows or even missing bricks or crates on the floor. @Deadwing, I would personally be very irritated if someone decided to remove the detail from cliffs that I was expected to navigate. Although, if you have a feature like in E1M5 where the nukage runs under the wall and then wraps around out of view, I think you should make part of that invisible. That way, in the event that you do get a computer map, you don't just see the end of the short tunnel that wrapped around out of view, which might "ruin" the immersion.

 

On 10/8/2018 at 10:25 PM, Spectre01 said:

I will echo the above points regarding automap cleaning. I remember finding a Computer Map in a level and it literally showed nothing new because all the secret areas have been wiped off the automap.

 

I remember playing a map 20ish years ago that had all the secrets marked as invisible. The author described that as one of the features that added difficulty to the map and encouraged you to really explore it.

 

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There is an event or scene I always put in my first person maps if the functions allow me to do so.

 

Inspired by the first Unreal, I recreate the moment where the you reach a dead end and the exit shuts behind you. Then the lights gradually switch off, one by one until the room is pitch black. The room remains dark and quiet until you hear some concerning sounds approaching you. Suddenly the lights switch back on and a ambush of monsters charge at you.

 

For those who never experienced this classic scene, it can actually cause a bit of terror.

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11 hours ago, Pegleg said:

When I mentioned cleaning the automap, what I was talking about ...

 

I knew what you were talking about when I wrote my comment. Please refer back to it to see why you are wrong.

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Looking at what Pegleg said they're actually "right", for it's their opinion and appropriately responded to your comment very comprehensively.

 

What removing non-traversable terrain tells the player is "you don't need to worry about that over there, it's not somewhere you can go". To sum it up:

 

14 hours ago, Pegleg said:

I like a map that conveys the information that you need without a lot of extra information that is, essentially, just noise.

 

I don't follow how you think Pegleg misunderstood your point, because they clearly did understand and further went on to explain their views. Also we're talking about opinions, so to say:

 

2 hours ago, Grain of Salt said:

you are wrong

 

Is not appropriate in the slightest.

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I like seeing even ceiling details on the automap, especially when it's easy to see and to identify in the automap (and then you see only a big square which feels a lot odd lol). Height differences are important for me to identify the area. I do hide some stuff, though, like dummy sectors and teleporting-monster closets that are revealed when you pick up the computer map.

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8 minutes ago, Deadwing said:

I like seeing even ceiling details on the automap, especially when it's easy to see and to identify in the automap

Would you clean this up or not? (Note that it's not yet fully detailed, but it's slowly getting close)
AMC.jpg.d340a86493642bdbf06e194088ff5e27.jpg

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I like sticking to 45/90 degree angles for walls, minimal floor detail but plenty of ceiling detail. I try and make all my buildings logical as well. Also generally stick to the ground rules laid by Romero himself.

 

I don't clean my automap lines as I'm lazy.

 

@d-Illasera I've read your posts in utter disbelief, your opinion in the grand scale of things is worth just as much as anyones, but sure as fuck isn't worth more, wind your neck in.

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6 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Would you clean this up or not? (Note that it's not yet fully detailed, but it's slowly getting close)
AMC.jpg.d340a86493642bdbf06e194088ff5e27.jpg

 

It depends how the rest of the map is, but you indeed have a point here :P
I wouldn't clean it too much, only the very little sectors that make the whole thing polluted.

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Just now, Liberation said:

I like sticking to 45/90 degree angles for walls, minimal floor detail but plenty of ceiling detail. I try and make all my buildings logical as well. Also generally stick to the ground rules laid by Romero himself.

 

I don't clean my automap lines as I'm lazy.

 

@d-Illasera I've read your posts in utter disbelief, your opinion in the grand scale of things is worth just as much as anyones, but sure as fuck isn't worth more, wind your neck in.

 

I'm generally the same way. keeping to the grid in some way is generally an effective measure. minor detailing can always involve going a bit off later down the line.

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7 minutes ago, d-Illasera said:

Have you considered making a better map that does not share this issue?

Spoiler

dis_gon_be_good.gif

 

On topic, I like to draw rooms with strange angles like they might look in the IWAD's, and make the rooms wrap and connect in various bizarre ways.

Building at an angle is fun, despite its difficulty.

In UDMF, I like to make use of portals for a wider "3D" look.

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If I have "mapper's block", I've just start to draw different interconnected geometrical shapes, and it works!

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A few things I do quite often when mapping:

  • Using arch-viles with a load of trash tier enemies.
  • Targeting GZDoom/UDMF without making much use of UDMF features on a per-map basis (anyone who's played Depths will know this, there is one line portal in the third map, and a few on-kill triggers, and that's it)
  • Completely polar difficulty - it's either really easy or really hard, there's no in between.
  • "Fake" non-linearity, as in, I'll add an area with multiple options, except they're all locked apart from one way, which will allow you to go one other way, etc etc. until the exit is finally reached. Map02 of my current personal project is especially guilty of this - I might have to rework it at some point.
  • In some cases, the way to progress in one of my levels is extremely hard to spot. XMAP05 in Depths, for example - I doubt many people will think of walking into tiny little alcoves to open up the way to a key. I reckon this is pretty hard to avoid when you're the person making the map though.
  • Making cyberdemons easy. I did this quite a lot in Depths - most are turreted with good cover being available.
  • Throwing in pain elementals just for the sake of being cruel.
  • Normally in secret areas or maps, but it still stands: cramming my name or icon in for the sole sake of being an egotistical prick.
  • Not planning out my maps before I make them in the slightest - with the sole exception of map 6 of my current personal project, which I drew beforehand.
  • Either not using copy paste at all, or going all out with copy paste.
  • Overuse of border sectors. I don't like it when colours clash too much.

Alright, enough of that wall of text.

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1 hour ago, Novaseer said:
  • Making cyberdemons easy. I did this quite a lot in Depths - most are turreted with good cover being available.
  • Throwing in pain elementals just for the sake of being cruel.

 

Why not have pain elementals teleport in sometime after you've started your attack on the turreted cyberdemon from the comfort of cover? You obviously wouldn't do it every time, but I would think that when it did happen (especially if there was a delay), it would catch the player offguard (and possibly be rather cruel).

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5 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Would you clean this up or not? (Note that it's not yet fully detailed, but it's slowly getting close)

I wouldn't clean up that SM arena at all ;D

 

In all seriousness, I think it's a fine line to walk for automap cleaning; on one hand I find it extremely annoying and narcissistic of authors to clean their automaps so much that they also clean the secrets off of them, so the 'automap pickup that doesn't show any secrets' situation comes about as Steve D mentioned, however on the other hand it looks a bit lazy when certain lines, like those that make up dummy sectors, lighting tricks, and especially trigger lines, can easily be seen on the automap without IDDT. Nobody has the time to sniff your every fart or check out your every tiny, insignificant detail, or to open every map in DB to find missed secrets, and that's coming from somebody who also loves to fill his maps with tiny, insignificant details. Of course the flip side of this coin is 'secrets shown in automap who's entrance is nowhere close to their location,' so just automap cleaning clearly isn't what caused the problem in this example. TNT 2 sorry I'm never gonna find all the secrets in this wip megawad and I don't feel remotely like I'm missing anything, because I'm in fact saving time by not wasting it there, and gaining more fun experiences elsewhere doing anything else.

 

Wrt non-secret areas: I like when cleaning is used to convey areas never to be reached, as what dragonfly said, (though this is also what item pickups outside of the believed map bounds are for) but at that point and further cleaning from there all comes down to how you want your automap art to look. For me, I'd rather see how the lines interconnect and more accurately how this layout goes from a 2d drawing of lines to a 3d area. Impressive maps have even more impressive automaps, and, at least just from my perspective, it's kinda a shame to hide them, cover them up, or otherwise bastardize them. It is also a bit strange (at least to me) to value minimalism in the automap but not in the actual design of areas.

 

That all said automap presentation is an interesting art and I like to see how different people approach it, as well as what effects it has on me and/or on others.

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1. Building a level or just a room around a gimmick.  I have one with Cacodemons inside square-shaped crushers that are activated with a switch.  You can get up onto the crushers and use connecting platforms to go get the key and try your best to not have the Cacos kill you when they see you...or you can run around on the ground and hit all the switches first..but then you have to avoid the Nightmare Spectres that'll come after you.

 

2. Borrowing assets from other Wads/Mods (with credit given, of course!), and mixing and matching what I think is the best of everything.  I figure there's so much material out there that you can find pretty much whatever you need.  I'd rather spend time furthering the vision than reinventing the wheel.

 

3. Using the soundtrack from the 3DO.  Hey, that's the best console Doom soundtrack ever.  Though if it doesn't fit for some reason, I'm most likely using the one from the Playstation.

 

4. Stuff from Doom 64.

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On 10/15/2018 at 10:13 PM, Chezza said:

There is an event or scene I always put in my first person maps if the functions allow me to do so.

 

Inspired by the first Unreal, I recreate the moment where the you reach a dead end and the exit shuts behind you. Then the lights gradually switch off, one by one until the room is pitch black. The room remains dark and quiet until you hear some concerning sounds approaching you. Suddenly the lights switch back on and a ambush of monsters charge at you.

 

For those who never experienced this classic scene, it can actually cause a bit of terror.

 

Now that GZDoom supports Unreal textures and weapons, you can add the Flak Cannon, too:

 

https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=60759&hilit=doom+tournament 

 

https://github.com/coelckers/gzdoom/commit/f285e550d693ced50cb11870144282091a81368d

Edited by Master O

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2 hours ago, rabidrage said:

1. Building a level or just a room around a gimmick.  I have one with Cacodemons inside square-shaped crushers that are activated with a switch.  You can get up onto the crushers and use connecting platforms to go get the key and try your best to not have the Cacos kill you when they see you...or you can run around on the ground and hit all the switches first..but then you have to avoid the Nightmare Spectres that'll come after you.

 

Building a level around a gimmick is a trope, and you can argue that it's one that should be avoided unless you can pull it off well. I suppose you could say this about just about everything, though. Overall, though, gimmicks for the sake of gimmicks are sort of what this thread was meant to be about (a level built around infighting [E2M8], haven't I been here before? [E3M8], oh look a different type of non-boss monster you'll only see in this one level [Maps 31 and 32], etc.).

 

Given that, whether you call it a gimmick, I would not necessarily call giving the player a choice in how to proceed a bad thing. Especially when there are different consequences to whichever way the player chooses to go. You could, in fact, set up the player by teaching them that the switches activate crushers and then springing the Nightmare Spectre ambush on them when they try to avoid fighting the visible cacodemons by activating the crushers.

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A little thing I do with doors is usually making them 5, 7, or 11 pixels wide. I find the DOORTRAK texture can be lined up symmetrically this way.

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Playing with the player’s perspective (layout is on the ceiling forcing the player to look up for the path forward)

 

Making the layout as dangerous as the monsters.

 

Forcing the player to constantly execute or die.

 

Avoiding providing enough hp for a health reset. You do poorly in an area you are punished later.

 

Providing access to large power ups like mega spheres outside of fights. Player decides to gamble an early heal vs making the map almost impossible later.

 

Requiring the player to use bfg efficiently.

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20 minutes ago, Killer5 said:

Playing with the player’s perspective (layout is on the ceiling forcing the player to look up for the path forward)

 

Making the layout as dangerous as the monsters.

 

Forcing the player to constantly execute or die.

 

Avoiding providing enough hp for a health reset. You do poorly in an area you are punished later.

 

Providing access to large power ups like mega spheres outside of fights. Player decides to gamble an early heal vs making the map almost impossible later.

 

Requiring the player to use bfg efficiently.

 

I don't know what it is about treating health and ammo that way.  I mean, I get it, but I hate having to save so often.  Levels seem more fun to me when they're not quite so brutal.  Why not just hide the health and make a secret or almost-secret out of it?  Or put it someplace where the player has to work/grind to get it?  Then they get to weigh their options and only go for it if it's really worth it to them.  Kinda like the room in E1M9 where the rockets are.

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