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DooM_RO

Doom 3: Final Scream (Community Project)

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I remember the Primary Excavation Site, and I really liked it then. The idea of such a project also attracts. For me, it will be a higher priority than many others (because GZDoom). It is a pity that I can not take it immediately, because busy at once in several CP's. However, I will follow the progress.

 

There are only a couple of questions:
1. Will there be a strict deadline?
2. If I can't add thirt-party textures, can I create my own based on Doom 3 textures? (keeping their style)
3. Can I use 3D models?
4. Will the project contain PBR textures?
5. Can I use sector portals to create formations of complex geometry.

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Thank you for your interest @StormCatcher.77

 

1. There are no deadlines. I see no reason for them.

 

2. Man, I don't know. It's a bit tricky. I find that when you have so many mappers that that each can use their own resources the project can lose cohesion fast and deviate from what it's supposed to be. I'll think about it. The martian and hell textures, while plentiful, are not quite as diverse as the UAC ones. We'll see. If more people want more textures then I will consider it but even if it is decided that we can use custom textures, they won't be introduced randomly. It will probably be a community decision. But for the moment let's see what we can do with the default textures.

 

3. No 3D models. As mentioned before the WAD is not really supposed to be 100% Doom 3. It is supposed to be Doom 2 and Doom 3. Have you ever played a Doom WAD with Heretic/Hexen textures but it still feels like classic Doom? Map 27 from Scythe 2 feels a lot like that. I intend to do something similar.

 

4. No PBR textures at all. It uses the 256 color version.

 

5. I'm not sure about that. I never made any super complicated stuff. I come from a Boom background but in general, the maps are supposed to be detailed but not super detailed. The detail is supposed to come more from how you use the textures and how your create the level geometry, not from super small and intricate details. I repeat, the intent is not to make it as much as possible like Doom 3 but rather adapt its style to classic Doom.

 

You can use the map I provided as a rough guideline for the style.

 

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Overall, I found that many Doom 3-themed WADs tend to get quite bloated because they try too hard to replicate Doom 3. I wish to keep it simple, classic and clean.

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Also, please don't think that I am making this all about me. It's just that I think project cohesion and consistency are very important. It would be very jarring to jump from a map that uses no 3D models, PBR and custom textures to one that has tons of intricate little details, special lighting, items and monsters. So ideally, the maps would have roughly the same style of detailing and design.

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This looks like a very interesting idea, however I'll also like to add my voice in favor of portals since they can really add to the complexity and architecture of a map, and when done tastefully, people will barely notice them.

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51 minutes ago, DooM_RO said:

I want to make something a bit more vanilla

 

3 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

Running is disabled on ALL maps

 

Mutually exclusive requirements.

 

Vanilla Doom always demanded to use "run". Even more, that's why sourceports have feature "always running: enable/disable" (don't remember about DOS Doom itself)

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4 minutes ago, DeXiaZ said:

 

 

Mutually exclusive requirements.

 

Vanilla Doom always demanded to use "run". Even more, that's why sourceports have feature "always running: enable/disable" (don't remember about DOS Doom itself)

 

I mean from a visual POV. BTSX is a good example of the style. This will have more realistic/believable layouts but BTSX is an example of what I want.

 

I don't see what is wrong with the approach I chose. I think it worked in my map. There are plenty of Doom 3 WADs that are full of micro details and 3D models.

 

 

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Sorry, don't misunderstand me, I'd like to do a map with your rules, I just found your previous words kinda "strange" in a whole meaning.

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Soooo, my question is, why should the project be for GZDoom if you basically aren't even allowed to use any GZDoom features? No 3d floors or models, no truecolor textures, maybe no portals, might as well pack the indexed palette textures in a Boom compatible wad and use prboom+ instead. Although I guess you can't force running to be disabled for everyone in prboom but then again I don't think people would miss too much since running around really fast in classic Doom is really fun :) Hell, maybe it would even be better suited for Doom 64 EX, there is already one d64 project going on and another one certainly wouldn't hurt, not to mention Doom 64 has more of a creepy Doom 3ish vibe than 1 and 2 do.

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46 minutes ago, therektafire said:

Soooo, my question is, why should the project be for GZDoom if you basically aren't even allowed to use any GZDoom features? No 3d floors or models, no truecolor textures, maybe no portals, might as well pack the indexed palette textures in a Boom compatible wad and use prboom+ instead. Although I guess you can't force running to be disabled for everyone in prboom but then again I don't think people would miss too much since running around really fast in classic Doom is really fun :) Hell, maybe it would even be better suited for Doom 64 EX, there is already one d64 project going on and another one certainly wouldn't hurt, not to mention Doom 64 has more of a creepy Doom 3ish vibe than 1 and 2 do.

 

You can align flats in GZDoom, use textures as flats (and vice versa) and there are some useful linedef actions too. If it weren't for that I would have made it for Boom. As a rule, I don't really like moving beyond vanilla but being able to align flats is very useful when working with these textures.

 

Also, I found that you can create some interesting gameplay if you disable running.

 

 

Edited by DooM_RO

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Maybe you should put the requirement as UDMF so it's compatible with Eternity, 3DGE etc? If you can disable running in all of them? That should keep the mappers in line when thinking of scripting and other advanced effects :D

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I think I might try making a couple of maps for this after I finish what I'm working on currently.

 

I feel like these textures would go really well with a few 3D floors. 

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I really love those textures and hope this project will get going soon (and also eventually finish!). Would love to play some more maps like primary excavation site.

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1 hour ago, DooM_RO said:

I think it would become a lot clearer if you took a look at the map.

 

Just played it right now. Heh, this map is not good as I thought. I mean, it tried to be "Threshold of Pain" with Doom 3 textures, but suprisingly fails the things ToP does awesome.

 

BTW, in this exact map you had (forced) to RUN just because of ammount of monsters (and their characteristics). It's a BAD suspense map. Yeah, the geometry is good, but the gameplay is bad.

 

Still, we're not forced to do the exact same map. I've got your concept idea. But you must add one more rule - no demon crowds (like P.E.S. map did). If you're going to create a Doom3 styled megawad without player running on high speed - you must place monsters in a small ammount and in the clever way.

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I don't think portals and 3D floors would necessarily break the "classic feel" of a map. That depends on how they're used. But there are plenty of classic maps (even vanilla Doom maps) that use tricks to approximate 3D structures, so getting the ability to make proper 3D structures without having to exploit rendering glitches for that should be acceptable when the target engine supports them.

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17 minutes ago, DeXiaZ said:

 

Just played it right now. Heh, this map is not good as I thought. I mean, it tried to be "Threshold of Pain" with Doom 3 textures, but suprisingly fails the things ToP does awesome.

 

BTW, in this exact map you had (forced) to RUN just because of ammount of monsters (and their characteristics). It's a BAD suspense map. Yeah, the geometry is good, but the gameplay is bad.

 

Still, we're not forced to do the exact same map. I've got your concept idea. But you must add one more rule - no demon crowds (like P.E.S. map did). If you're going to create a Doom3 styled megawad without player running on high speed - you must place monsters in a small ammount and in the clever way.

 

Not really, while I really like TOP, it wasn't really on my list of inspiration. E1M7 and E2M7 are what maps usually inspire me. But yes, TOP is a really good inspiration for what I am going for and I actually encourage people to make their maps in that style but with Doom 3 textures. 

 

As for the demons crowds, you're actually the first person who had a problem with them so it might be subjective. 

 

You can make whatever gameplay you want/think is balanced. I offered my map as an example for how the detailing and architecture should look like and to show that you don't need any fancy stuff to make it feel like Doom 3.

Edited by DooM_RO

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8 minutes ago, Gez said:

I don't think portals and 3D floors would necessarily break the "classic feel" of a map. That depends on how they're used. But there are plenty of classic maps (even vanilla Doom maps) that use tricks to approximate 3D structures, so getting the ability to make proper 3D structures without having to exploit rendering glitches for that should be acceptable when the target engine supports them.

 

Yes, I agree but there is already a map in the WAD so those features might make the transition jarring, going from a mostly vanilla map to a map that has tons of little details and 3D models and floors over floors etc. Plus, think of it as a challenge. 

 

The only reason I used GZDoom was because I want to be able to use flats as textures and vice versa, align flats and has some specific linedef actions. If it hadn't been for those it would have been a Boom map from the start.

 

So bottom line, I want it to be (mostly) vanilla. 

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Again, that depends on how they're used. Using a 3D floor or a portal doesn't mean the map will feature tons of little details and 3D models.

 

Likewise, the level of detail in BTSX and in WOW are extremely different, even though both are vanilla. So for achieving a consistent level of detailing, mapping limitations are not the right way to do it IMO.

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5 minutes ago, Gez said:

Again, that depends on how they're used. Using a 3D floor or a portal doesn't mean the map will feature tons of little details and 3D models.

 

Likewise, the level of detail in BTSX and in WOW are extremely different, even though both are vanilla. So for achieving a consistent level of detailing, mapping limitations are not the right way to do it IMO.

 

Those were just rough examples. I mentioned BTSX because I wanted to show that you can do a lot with less and that is kind of the goal of this project I am not saying we should start emulating it. @DeXiaZ mentioned Threshold of Pain and while I was not consciously thinking about it when making the map, it is certainly a good inspiration (especially because the level design often feels like Doom 3 in TOP).

 

When I made it, I designed it like a vanilla map but with Doom 3 textures in mind.

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17 minutes ago, DooM_RO said:

As for the demons crowds, you're actually the first person who had a problem with them so it might be subjective. 

 

I know, that's kinda offtopic, but seriously? In UV you have only pistol and 50 ammo and 4 imps with demon in small corridor. OKAY. I've killed imps, punched the pinky. I've step forward into next location - imp and demon triggered from the right, hellknight triggered from the left. Also got revenant hiding near hellknight. Got no ammo, imp died, all 3 monsters not. Map forcing me to make monsters infight in bad way. That's also kills the feeling of horror, just because this situation is an absurd. "Nice" start of the map with 250 monsters, 10 of them just killed in first 3 minutes.

 

The author of this map is a good designer, no doubt. But he doesn't understand how to make this map "alive". He just spawne randomly some monsters without thinking about the balance. It somehow reminds me "The Evil Within" videogame which is supposed to be the survival horror but the best way to win this game is grinding skills at "critical hits" which is also absurd.

 

The main difference between the original Doom 3 and this map - Doom 3 is still the slow-paced horror shooter in simply designed dark corridors; this map is action shooter (without ammo in the start) in slaughter-styled good designed dark corridors.

 

Without doubt, you're absolutely right about:

17 minutes ago, DooM_RO said:

You can make whatever gameplay you want/think is balanced. I offered my map as an example for how the detailing and architecture should look.

 

P.S.: Sorry, I'm blind. YOU are the author of this map.

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15 minutes ago, DooM_RO said:

The only reason I used GZDoom was because I want to be able to use flats as textures and vice versa, align flats and has some specific linedef actions. If it hadn't been for those it would have been a Boom map from the start.

You could just modify the flats/texture into textures/flats in slade and use them as what you want them to ;D

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@DeXiaZ

 

I have to admit, balancing the map was very hard because I wanted to keep the slow pace and survival horror of Doom 3 but with a monster count and monster variety closer to Doom 2, as that was one of the main criticisms of Doom 3 : too few monsters and too little variety in how they were used. You can never be sure if the player has too much or too little ammo, if they find a secret or not, how many secrets they have found, etc. I wanted to make the player feel under pressure but it was quite hard.

 

I also tried to make the player run away from monsters occasionally, survive by provoking infighting and make the player desperate for secrets and new weapons. And I do agree that it is a bit clunky. If this thing takes off then I will probably make a couple of changes to the beginning. I do think it gets a lot better towards the middle of the map.

 

So this is what I wanted to achieve. If you have any suggestions how I can improve it then I am all ears.

Edited by DooM_RO

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3 minutes ago, SOSU said:

You could just modify the flats/texture into textures/flats in slade and use them as what you want them to ;D

 

Maybe. Problem is that I've only used Slade a little bit. I am used to using just GZDoombuilder because I am more of a vanilla mapper. I would also be missing a few linedef actions that would break the map.

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1 minute ago, DooM_RO said:

 

Maybe. Problem is that I've only used Slade a little bit. I am used to using just GZDoombuilder because I am more of a vanilla mapper.

It's quite easy,just copy the texture intbetween FF_START and FF_END and the flats into TX_START and TX_END (you need to turn the textures into 64x64 ones for the latter to work) if i remember correctly.You need to put the textures inbetween PP_... too if you want to use textures in vanilla (?) so i recommend doing this in Boom more than vanilla (or your plan on making it in GZDoom) since it's much harder to do something wrong or break limits in it :D

Also i maybe will participate in this project depending on the general quality of the maps (if this cp gets filled with pros then i'm out)

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1 minute ago, SOSU said:

It's quite easy,just copy the texture intbetween FF_START and FF_END and the flats into TX_START and TX_END (you need to turn the textures into 64x64 ones for the latter to work) if i remember correctly.You need to put the textures inbetween PP_... too if you want to use textures in vanilla (?) so i recommend doing this in Boom more than vanilla (or your plan on making it in GZDoom) since it's much harder to do something wrong or break limits in it :D

Also i maybe will participate in this project depending on the general quality of the maps (if this cp gets filled with pros then i'm out)

 

Sorry for being dense but I don't really understand the solution. There are also a lot of small little custom alignments that give the floor a specific look.

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