Making the mastermind a better monster

[Mordeth]

12 hours ago, AlysiumX said:

Also i think its interesting to think that maybe the spider mastermind might have been more of a threat back in the early 90's before everyone was use to using a mouse and keyboard as part of their playstyle. 

 

Back then, in my first playthrough, I did not use a mouse and was not aware of the strafe keys (I literally backpedaled and made a turn to avoid incoming projectiles). Spiderdemon was a pushover. You could even find a spot on one of the ledges where the Spiderdemon could engage you but always missed, allowing you to shoot at leisure.

[Bauul]

There was an Abyssal Speedmapping session, 33 I think, that featured a map with a Mastermind used pretty effectively. The map was a kind of small concrete maze with only low tier weapons, and the Mastermind was in a central part of it. With no way to deal with her effectively (there just wasn't the ammo) she became a kind of angry turret that forced the player to run and hide as much as possible while completing the level.

 

Granted though, that's quite a specific situation. I personally think her biggest issue is that her weapon just isn't that much fun to fight against. Unlike a Chaingunner (who you can kill very quickly) or an Archvile (who gives you plenty of warning he's targeting you) the Mastermind is just instant damage if caught out in the open.

 

Fighting her just isn't very Doom-like; no amount of clever strafing can avoid her hitscan. Killing her usually comes down to using cover and sniping, which just isn't gameplay that feels good in Doom. And unlike the Cyb, you'd need a huge open level for her to effectively chase you because she's so big. It's not impossible, but you'd need to design something with her in mind right from the start.

[bkcrown]

On 10/24/2018 at 1:54 AM, Jimmy said:

Give her a secondary attack?

Speaking of secondary attacks, the Spider Mastermind had an unused frame of a magic attack animation.

[bkcrown]

On 10/27/2018 at 2:23 AM, XLightningStormL said:

ZDoom feature wise,
I mean you could always bring back the original plan to give the Mastermind the cut secondary attack iD originally intended it to have, which was meant to be (apparently) some sort of telekinesis lifting the target up for a short while also shooting them. 

 

Wait, somebody already said that.

[Nootrac4571]

The thing I've always thought about the Mastermind - and correct me if you think I'm talking nonsense - is that, as a boss monster, she was designed for one specific level in Doom - and that level, like most Doom 1 levels and a lot of Doom 2 levels seems to me to be clearly designed to be best played from a pistol start.

 

Hear me out: e3m8 is a completely different experience depending on whether you go into it with the plasma weapons and loads of ammo, or start with nothing:

 

Pistol start: It's a tense, almost puzzle boss level: You need to sprint around the raised edge of the map, collecting all the rockets, dodging the cacodemons, while making sure to trigger enough infighting that the Mastermind is distracted while you circle round behind her and collect the last few rockets. Then, once you're properly tooled up, you face her in the centre of the map, grab the plasma gun. and - dancing round the central room - take her down with just enough ammo to get the job done. It's a pretty great boss level.

 

Fully loaded BFG start: Run directly towards her and press fire twice.

 

It's pretty clear to me that the level was designed and play-tested with a pistol start in mind, and in that specific scenario on that particular map she's a really great monster. Outside of that situation she's a pushover, because the BFG absolutely destroys her, so I think one possible solution to the problem is maybe to just use her in the same way Id did - as a very specific event-based threat, rather than just another high-tier monster to throw in to a crowd.

[Soundblock]

I always thought some of the flying variants of Mastermind over at Realm667 looked interesting, but I've no idea if any of them have been play balanced to an extent where they're a worthwhile offering. E.g. Arachnophyte...

 

[traversd]

Given the BFG is so effective against it - maybe it should be invulnerable to BFG tracers? It could even deflect the the main projectile and take ownership of the tracers (ie: meaning the tracers would hurt players if caught in the new "cone" and other enemies to start some infighting against the SMM)

[Linguica]

The biggest problem with the Spider Mastermind is that it's just a giant turret. It needs to be able to move and fire at the same time.

[Stabbey]

I played Confinement 256, and I think Map 12 or something had a neat gimmick. Map11 ended with a "reduce player to under 10% HP and exit" trap, and Map 12 placed you into a small crate fort with some rockets and a launcher, and you had to kill the spider without taking any damage, because you start out on death's door. It was a pretty neat idea.

[FractalBeast]

Still think the trick lies within the concept of "magic" or "psychic powers" to really distinguish the Mastermind from the brutish Cyberdemon. The Mastermind came up with the invasion of Earth, it really should be more of an insidious boss than the "imma shüt u n u shüt me" Cyberdemon. Maybe have it shoot Lost Souls at near-hitscan speed hahahahaha.

[Impie]

I'd make her smaller and faster: like a bulky arachnotron as fast as the archvile. Being fast and more trigger-happy could make up for her low health, since now it's harder to hit or outpace her.

 

Maybe she could also be walking on the ceiling?

 

Posting all this without seeing anyone else's ideas, so chances are I'm just being redundant.

[SaladBadger]

I actually kind of like the idea of the thing being able to move and shoot, but that does seem like a minor implementation problem, since there's the whole problem of it facing away while shooting you while walking. I guess an idea would be to make it like a Wolfenstein 3D boss, where it moves for a it, shoots a salvo of many bullets, and then is able to move again. It would potentially look weird in certain setups, but I also feel it would help if the radius didn't incorporate the legs, which would give it a feel of stepping "around" things perhaps.

 

While I think a magic attack could also be nice, and clearly id did too since they put at least a little work into it, I'm not fond of the idea that's thrown around of it freezing you. It seems like a fairly cheap instant kill since you'd be a sitting duck for the chaingun.

[Vermil]

Perhaps the Spider Demon could move while firing and cause melee damage with it's legs while moving (more for dealing with other monsters, rather than the player perhaps)? 

 

I like to think the way the blockmap bug affects the Spider Demon, Arachnotron and Mancubus vulnerability to melee attacks was deliberate in order to represent their legs and bulk respectively.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Vermil

[elend]

I was thinking about, what I like about other games‘ boss battles. What I like best are bosses that have three or more clearly distinguishable attack patterns, which you can learn and thus eventually evade. Since you can‘t evade the SMM‘s hitscans it probably needs some other kind of „gap“ in its attack. Maybe a reloading animation. At this moment it‘s rather safe to attack him, albeit not with a BFG and — more interestingly — only from a short distance.   (Maybe it has some kind of „shield“ deployed). The suspense would be in anticipating the end of this gap and rapidly retreating and looking for cover again. Having the SMM walk around and maybe be able to destroy cover (!) would make it additionally challenging.

[EarthQuake]

I like the idea of it possessing some sort of telekinetic ability. Instead of just freezing you in place or something of a similar nature, it could actually pick you up and fling you against walls, taking damage upon impact. Kind of like the Disc of Repulsion from Hexen.

[Empyre]

Maybe it can slow you, rather than freezing you.

[printz]

I'd just replace spiderdemon's chaingun with a BFG9000. A large, crazy monster deserves this big fucking gun. It's also fitting for the final Doom 1 boss to use the ultimate weapon. Of course, it's actually less effective than the chaingun in large arenas like E3M8, but virtually any smaller place will make the BFG spiderdemon truly terrifying. You can still kill it quickly with your BFG and they will still infight, but who cares? Their weapons are much more respectable now and much more dangerous,