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Cynical

Cynical hates on NIghtdive Studio

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[Thread split from

-- Mordeth]

 

Great, now there's another project they can badly mismanage while owning the IP and filing takedowns against fan-made "modernization" projects.

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1 hour ago, Quasar said:

[Citation needed]

NightDive demanded that System Shock Portable be taken down.  Meanwhile, their attempt at remaking System Shock continues to go absolutely nowhere because they're not a real game developer, they're just squatters who buy IPs and make kickstarters.

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2 minutes ago, Cynical said:

NightDive demanded that System Shock Portable be taken down.  Meanwhile, their attempt at remaking System Shock continues to go absolutely nowhere because they're not a real game developer, they're just squatters who buy IPs and make kickstarters.

Let me guess, it was including all the assets with the code? It's not legal to do that, ever.

 

I'll let the fact we've released roughly a game a year in the Kex team since 2014 speak for itself regarding the rest.

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3 hours ago, Sparktimus said:

Barring the System Shock situation, Night Dive have handled most of their IPs they've acquired pretty well if you ask me. The remake looks like it's back on the right track as well. I don't see how one fuck up that they're recovering from already means they mismanage their projects. Honestly, considering what they were originally going for with the remake, I'm glad they're reevaluating their priorities.

1.  The screenshots they've released of the new Unreal Engine version actually look worse than the old Unity demo, somehow:

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148781&p=2388024&viewfull=1#post2388024

 

2.  They gave System Shock 3 to fucking OtherSide.  Have you seen the reviews of the recent UA beta from the people who have gotten to play it?

 

System Shock is about all I know them for (I didn't even know they were the folks who did Strife:VE before this thread), and their handling of that franchise continues to be utterly shambolic.

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15 minutes ago, Cynical said:

1.  The screenshots they've released of the new Unreal Engine version actually look worse than the old Unity demo, somehow:

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148781&p=2388024&viewfull=1#post2388024

 

2.  They gave System Shock 3 to fucking OtherSide.  Have you seen the reviews of the recent UA beta from the people who have gotten to play it?

 

System Shock is about all I know them for (I didn't even know they were the folks who did Strife:VE before this thread), and their handling of that franchise continues to be utterly shambolic.

 

Please, enough of this. I don't care what your personal opinion of Night Dive Studios or the System Shock remake is, this thread is not meant for arguing about those things; this thread is meant to promote a teaser that is hopefully for something people have been waiting for for many, many years. Do not derail this thread with petty bickering.

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10 hours ago, Cynical said:

badly mismanage while owning the IP and filing takedowns against fan-made "modernization" projects.

So, nothing changes, huh?

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7 hours ago, Cynical said:

1.  The screenshots they've released of the new Unreal Engine version actually look worse than the old Unity demo, somehow:

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148781&p=2388024&viewfull=1#post2388024

 

2.  They gave System Shock 3 to fucking OtherSide.  Have you seen the reviews of the recent UA beta from the people who have gotten to play it?

 

System Shock is about all I know them for (I didn't even know they were the folks who did Strife:VE before this thread), and their handling of that franchise continues to be utterly shambolic.

Link to the reviews?

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20 minutes ago, Liberation said:

While not on topic, I think it is important to mentioned to people laying the boot in to Night Dive studios, especially over the somewhat sad SS1 mishap, that the team are making good of the promise to the KS backers.

Only because their plan to commit fraud fell through LOL.

 

Go read the Sheamus Young article on the whole debacle.  Their entire goal was to do a bait and switch -- use the demo to prove interest in the license, then pitch a AAA FPS that has little to do with System Shock to publishers to turn their studio into an AAA "big-boy" with >$1M of money from people who thought they were buying a System Shock remake, not a AAA corridor shooter with "freeze and shatter mechanics".

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1 hour ago, Cynical said:

Only because their plan to commit fraud fell through LOL.

 

Go read the Sheamus Young article on the whole debacle.  Their entire goal was to do a bait and switch -- use the demo to prove interest in the license, then pitch a AAA FPS that has little to do with System Shock to publishers to turn their studio into an AAA "big-boy" with >$1M of money from people who thought they were buying a System Shock remake, not a AAA corridor shooter with "freeze and shatter mechanics".

These are some pretty outrageous claims you're making. So, because an original plan fall through (which can happen a lot with any big ambitious project), suddenly it means they were going to commit fraud? There are many other cases in which early concepts for games are nothing like their demos. They even tell you straight up when you start the thing that the content in the demo may end up being nothing like the finished product. How in any way is that fraudulent? Because some dude wrote an article based on their own perception? We even have ND employees on this very site that can tell you way more about what was going on than someone who was as close to the project as the rest of the backers. Perhaps what actually happened was that they realized that they were straying away from their original intention and didn't want to disappoint people who were expecting a System Shock 1 remake and decided to reconfigure the project with way more transparency than you're implying. There are easier ways to commit fraud than to be like "Well, I'll just pretend I'm actually making a game faithful to the original material, then not do that, then actually end up doing it anyway! HAHA, SUCKERS!"

I suggest actually doing a bit more research on the company itself and they other projects they've been involved with rather than looking for one thing that supports your unfounded bias. So far, they have made good on a lot of their promises and have communicated with the community a great deal. Plans can change and new directions can be taken when you're making a game, especially if you are trying to do another game justice. Just look at the betas for games like Doom and Half Life. The latter especially looked way different from the game that we got and you can bet that there was some internal frustration over it. It turns out it's pretty difficult to make games. So before you slander the creators, maybe try understanding things from their perspective before making such rash judgements.

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ND's own CEO said that they were trying to get funding from a AAA publisher.  The entire idea was "get a million bucks to have some Unreal Engine stuff to show off to publishers, so we can make a AAA game" -- they've openly admitted that fact.  No matter how you want to spin it, this means they lied in their kickstarter, and should never be given the benefit of the doubt on any topic. 

 

Yes, "other projects they've been involved with", AKA "buying other people's work and repackaging it with DOXBox or building a wrapper for it".  So impressive.  They're rent-seekers, plain and simple.

 

I'd be willing to bet they go after GDX Blood.  It's exactly in accordance to their MO.

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Just now, Cynical said:

"buying other people's work and repackaging it with DOXBox or building a wrapper for it"

This is just so deeply wrong I don't know where to start; your argument isn't uninformed, but instead actively misinformed. You're aware that all the projects done by the team that did Strife and the Turoks have significant differences over what they're based on, right? They're not just basic wrappers for the engine as was. Have you ever played Strife: Veteran Edition and seen just how cool the GL renderer is, or the new gamemode they added, or the brand new single-player content? Have you ever seen just how much care went into improving the renderer of the Turok games? How would they even have support for achievements on the platforms they're distributed on if they just wrapped the original engine with SDL2 or something similar?

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Didn't they update System Shock enhanced edition this week? They don't seem like the cash in then run kind. 

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18 minutes ago, Cynical said:

ND's own CEO said that they were trying to get funding from a AAA publisher.  The entire idea was "get a million bucks to have some Unreal Engine stuff to show off to publishers, so we can make a AAA game" -- they've openly admitted that fact.  No matter how you want to spin it, this means they lied in their kickstarter, and should never be given the benefit of the doubt on any topic. 

 

Yes, "other projects they've been involved with", AKA "buying other people's work and repackaging it with DOXBox or building a wrapper for it".  So impressive.  They're rent-seekers, plain and simple. 

 

I'd be willing to go after GDX Blood.  It's exactly in accordance to their MO.

Okay. Since when is saying that you're going to make an AAA game a bad thing? Damn you, Night Dive! How dare you desire a decent budget and mainstream promotion for your highly ambitious project!

I know a lot of "gaming journalists" like to throw around the term "AAA" as if it's an inherently bad thing, but I personally see nothing wrong with a company wanting to maximize their profits as much as they can for something they're obviously going to be pouring a lot of time and effort into. Hell, they can still do that with their current incarnation. If they really honestly were fraudulent about anything, they would've either released something completely different or just not have done anything at all. Again, do some research. Blindly going "URGH, BIG GAME COMPANY BAD!!!" at someone over that is extremely short-sighted.

As far as "buying other people's work" goes, do you realize that Kaiser was working on the original Turok remaster all by himself? There wasn't even a source code or anything to go off of except the extraordinarily shoddy original PC port. It's not like they took all of his work and gave him none of the credit. He actually works at the dang place now, so no. I don't think Night Dive are squatters or rent-seekers or whatever for actively reaching out to the community itself and getting people to actually make these things a reality. You're tripping all over yourself to not give them any credit for anything and actively disgracing the people who did work on these games in the process of doing so.

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Making an AAA game isn't a bad thing unless you take $1.3M of other people's money claiming you're going to make a faithful remake in Unity, complete with a vertical-slice demo you claim is representative, but actually plan to make something completely different, and are just taking the $1.3M to get it started.  Then it's fraud.

 

Guess which ND did?

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14 minutes ago, Cynical said:

Making an AAA game isn't a bad thing unless you take $1.3M of other people's money claiming you're going to make a faithful remake in Unity, complete with a vertical-slice demo you claim is representative, but actually plan to make something completely different, and are just taking the $1.3M to get it started.  Then it's fraud.

 

Guess which ND did?

Remember earlier when I said the demo itself told you that it could be a lot different from the finished product? Because it does. Night Dive never actually said "yes, this is exactly what the game is going to be when it's released." They said "This is more or less just a rough representation of what the games basic mechanics are going to be."

You say "plan" as if they brewed up this insidious plot to fool people, despite the fact that if they actually DID want to commit fraud (which they didn't and were not going to do), they probably would've went with a site that calls for much less transparency and doesn't require you actually show your progress. Hell, it's a whole lot easier to make 1.3M off of people other than pretending to be a game dev company. You aren't doing a very good job at reinforcing this narrative that Night Dive is this evil corporation that squanders people's money when you use the same exact argument over and over again despite it being proven false by several different sources. I'm more inclined to believe that this is little more than intentionally blind pessimism for the sake of it.

Edited by Sparktimus

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They had to use KD because it has the most visibility, and they were counting on getting a publisher deal.  If they get a publisher deal and the whole thing doesn't collapse, they can just keep saying "fans want us to do this" with no citation (as they did when they cited a console port of System Shock 1 as the reason to move to UE4, roflmao), and assume that showing enough "cool stuff" will keep fans happy with the fact that what was pitched isn't at all what they had any intention of doing.

 

They didn't get the publisher deal, the whole thing collapsed, and it became obvious to everyone what they were trying to do from the start.

 

Look at the screenshots I linked earlier in the thread.  Look at their trailers.  They still aren't even to where they were before they even "started".  Here we are, long past the "hiatus", and they've still got a looooong way to go to have produced even literally nothing.  I'd be stunned if they're spending any real resources on this at this point (especially since they laid off all 15 of their experienced contractors and handed it off to a "team" of people that, by their own admission, have basically no experience).

 

Their own founder and CEO described the System Shock project as the entire reason the company exists.  ND exists solely to do... this.  The SS franchise was in better hands when it was being ignored by EA.

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Wow, what a trainwreck of a thread. Why the hell wasn't cynical's little hate crusade contained in a split yet?

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I'd be less annoyed with them not making new games if they hadn't pulled the stunt they did with SSP.  They forced a takedown of a better port in order to sell their own worse one.  They've been actively bad for the System Shock fanbase, compared to EA's willingness to let the IP rot.

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18 hours ago, Quasar said:

Let me guess, it was including all the assets with the code? It's not legal to do that, ever.

I checked and this appears to be exactly correct. All that happened was that it was converted to something called SSPtool that requires the user to supply the original game files. Kind of like how every Doom source port requires you to supply the IWAD, because everyone knows that redistributing commercial IWADs is illegal.

 

And who would have imagined that distributing other peoples' copyrighted content would result in a cease and desist, right? An outrage indeed.

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2 hours ago, Cynical said:

I'd be less annoyed with them not making new games if they hadn't pulled the stunt they did with SSP.  They forced a takedown of a better port in order to sell their own worse one.  They've been actively bad for the System Shock fanbase, compared to EA's willingness to let the IP rot.

 

SSP was an unofficial free download for a commercial product- blatantly illegal. "Abandonware" does not exist. Of course it's going to be taken down. The SSEE port provides everything that SSP did, and more, including mod support for the first time ever.

 

26 minutes ago, Cynical said:

Oh boy a variation on NPC meme, how original.

 

?????

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by fraggle. Oops.

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4 minutes ago, TheMightyHeracross said:

 

SSP was an unofficial free download for a commercial product- blatantly illegal. "Abandonware" does not exist. Of course it's going to be taken down. The SSEE port provides everything that SSP did, and more, including mod support for the first time ever.

 

 

?????

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by fraggle. Oops.

It's still possible for something to fit the real definition of abandonware (an IP with *no* rights holders that could enforce a claim against it), but, most things by far do not. I'll give Strife as the perfect example. Its rights never lapsed - they *have* in fact been continuously held by a couple of parties over the years. Thing is, when companies go bust, they sell off their assets to pay off their creditors - and for a software company, IP is the main asset. So you can bet it almost always gets sold to somebody, even if, as in the case of System Shock, the somebody ends up being a tiny insurance company nobody ever heard of.

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