Cynical hates on NIghtdive Studio

[Cynical]

Yes, SSEE "provides everything SSP did", that's why there's a tool to turn the GOG version into SSP.  SSEE is basically a crash-to-desktop simulator, it barely works at all, and when it is "working", somehow it runs slowly even in low resolution on modern computers.

 

SSP was bundled with the game data partially because when it was done no one cared about SS, but also partially because it's the best way to do what SSP did; it wasn't just an executable but it actually changed a lot of the other game files, hence why it needs a full patching tool to modify files instead of just being a new executable.

[kb1]

9 minutes ago, Quasar said:

It's still possible for something to fit the real definition of abandonware (an IP with *no* rights holders that could enforce a claim against it), but, most things by far do not. I'll give Strife as the perfect example. Its rights never lapsed - they *have* in fact been continuously held by a couple of parties over the years. Thing is, when companies go bust, they sell off their assets to pay off their creditors - and for a software company, IP is the main asset. So you can bet it almost always gets sold to somebody, even if, as in the case of System Shock, the somebody ends up being a tiny insurance company nobody ever heard of.

Interesting - I never thought of "abandonware" being a real thing.

A personal question, if you don't mind:

Are you actually working for them now, or were you basically freelancing/contracting on Strife? Either way, it sounds like a great job. Is it satisfying work?

[fraggle]

6 minutes ago, Cynical said:

 

SSP was bundled with the game data partially because when it was done no one cared about SS,

Be that as it may, it was never legal to do that, and a similar takedown would have been inevitable with any commercial re-release of System Shock. It seems like a strange reason to hate on Nightdive for. Whatever you may think of them as a company they're not a charity. Any other company would have done the same.

[Quasar]

3 minutes ago, kb1 said:

Interesting - I never thought of "abandonware" being a real thing.

A personal question, if you don't mind:

Are you actually working for them now, or were you basically freelancing/contracting on Strife? Either way, it sounds like a great job. Is it satisfying work?

I am a full-time software engineer/game programmer.

[Cynical]

"Any commercial re-release" -- yes, one that was released AFTER SSP was already a thing, and was worse than SSP.

It's not like Nightdive was surprised by people releasing something that they owned the IP for; SSP existed before Nightdive bought SS.  Nightdive bought the IP knowing that SSP existed, and then takedowned SSP so they could sell a worse version of it.  Legal, sure, but it's a pretty clear case of a company ruining a good thing to make money and being able to do so solely because US IP law is broken.

[Quasar]

I've seen our business guy bend over backwards trying to meet fan projects half-way before he'll send any takedown requests. A lot of times he only gets met with hostility and irrational anger. To be clear, I wasn't around when the System Shock stuff happened. And I'm aware some of the things that were done with it were met negatively by the community. However, those became a harsh learning experience and the lessons have been applied.

 

A perfect example was Strife: Veteran Edition, as Stephen wanted us to be 100% sure that using Chocolate Strife would be cool before we went forward with it. He did not want to anger any more online communities, as those people are the fans of the games, the people most likely to be interested in a remaster.

[kb1]

9 minutes ago, Quasar said:

I am a full-time software engineer/game programmer.

Good for you, man! I bet you have a smile from ear to ear, on your face right now :) It's satisfying work, right? There's nothing quite like getting paid to do your hobby full-time.

 

2 minutes ago, Quasar said:

I've seen our business guy bend over backwards trying to meet fan projects half-way before he'll send any takedown requests. A lot of times he only gets met with hostility and irrational anger. To be clear, I wasn't around when the System Shock stuff happened. And I'm aware some of the things that were done with it were met negatively by the community. However, those became a harsh learning experience and the lessons have been applied.

 

A perfect example was Strife: Veteran Edition, as Stephen wanted us to be 100% sure that using Chocolate Strife would be cool before we went forward with it. He did not want to anger any more online communities, as those people are the fans of the games, the people most likely to be interested in a remaster.

That's very cool of Stephen, and of ND. And, it's unusual for a big software company to care like that. Again, it's very cool, and it's an example of doing right by the fans. Bravo!

 

11 minutes ago, Cynical said:

"Any commercial re-release" -- yes, one that was released AFTER SSP was already a thing, and was worse than SSP.

It's not like Nightdive was surprised by people releasing something that they owned the IP for; SSP existed before Nightdive bought SS.  Nightdive bought the IP knowing that SSP existed, and then takedowned SSP so they could sell a worse version of it.  Legal, sure, but it's a pretty clear case of a company ruining a good thing to make money and being able to do so solely because US IP law is broken.

That's bullshit, Cynical. Would you be complaining, had they bought and re-released SSP as-is? What if they charged $200 for it...would your answer be any different?

ND now owns the IP, so they are responsible for how it is being represented. The fact that SSP is good just muddies the waters. They had no other choice.

 

 

 

[Cynical]

First off, yes, it would have been better for them to buy and re-release SSP than to do what they did with SSEE.  Probably not practical for a variety of reasons, but better.

 

But, they did have a choice.  SSP existed before ND owned SS.  If they saw SSP as being a problem (and there's no way they weren't aware of it, it was how everyone played SS1 for years before ND bought SS), they could have just not bought the SS franchise.  Simple solution.

[TheMightyHeracross]

Well first of all, if there's a patch to convert the GOG version to SSP, why are you even complaining? Just use that!

 

Second, saying that they should've "just not bought the franchise" is stupid. You're saying that they should have ditched the rereleases of both SS1 and SS2, and the SS1 remake, all because somebody was already distributing the first game- illegally!- with a mouselook/high resolution mod. It is not Night Dive's problem that fans decided to illegally distribute System Shock 1 and they have no obligation to respect that project.

[Sparktimus]

1 hour ago, Cynical said:

First off, yes, it would have been better for them to buy and re-release SSP than to do what they did with SSEE.  Probably not practical for a variety of reasons, but better.

 

But, they did have a choice.  SSP existed before ND owned SS.  If they saw SSP as being a problem (and there's no way they weren't aware of it, it was how everyone played SS1 for years before ND bought SS), they could have just not bought the SS franchise.  Simple solution.

I'm sorry, but in what world does this make sense? Why should Night Dive have shied away from rebooting the franchise over something that was literally just a repackaged version of the original game that was just DOSBox with mouse support? Have you ever even played the SSEE version? It even has a classic version that comes with it so if, for some reason, you don't like the changes that were made, it's entirely possible to play it that way. You got on Night Dive's case earlier for apparently releasing games that are simply just DOSBox exes with a wrapper when that's literally what SSP was, so I'm not sure what the big issue is here.

SSP worked for the time it was around because actually buying the game itself was almost an impossibility. As soon as ND bought the rights, I don't recall anyone protesting this because they were dedicated fans who were more than happy to support the game and people who obviously care about it. The ONLY advantage anyone would have for still using SSP is that they got the base game for free. Illegally, and with none of the fixes or new features, but free. That's all. As far as I'm concerned, Night Dive have only helped the franchise become more widely known, which is nothing but a good thing, but I'm supposed to believe their evil because they took down something that is essentially warez?

Edited November 2, 2018 by Sparktimus

[Cynical]

"Fixes or new features"

 

SSP has had SS1 running well in 1024x768 for years.  SSEE shits itself at 800x600.  Oh, and they added windowed mode, because playing FPSs in a tiny window is such a great experience compared to fullscreen amirite?

[OliveTree]

On 11/1/2018 at 7:18 PM, Cynical said:

"Fixes or new features"

 

SSP has had SS1 running well in 1024x768 for years.  SSEE shits itself at 800x600.  Oh, and they added windowed mode, because playing FPSs in a tiny window is such a great experience compared to fullscreen amirite?

* Mod Support

*Widescreen Support

*Better Performance For Low-End PC's (But who cares right, no way old-school focused gamers use lower end pc's)

*Better Keyboard** Customization

*Actual Controller Support

 

I played SSEE basically as soon as it came out* and came across absolutely zero bugs. It was the only way I was even able to beat the game at all, considering how slow and crash-y DOSBox is on my computer.

 

*EDIT: As soon as it was rereleased in september

 

**EDIT: Fixed a mistake

Edited November 3, 2018 by EtherBot

[Cynical]

SSP had mod support.  Widescreen support is literally broken, the aspect ratio is totally wrong and it breaks the text.  Playing SS1 with a controller, lol.

 

Being able to reassign keys is nice, sure, I'll give it that (although you can do key-remappings through DOSBox).  In every other way, it's worse.

[OliveTree]

2 minutes ago, Cynical said:

Widescreen support is literally broken, the aspect ratio is totally wrong and it breaks the text.

Might be something with your pc? Worked fine on my end.

 

2 minutes ago, Cynical said:

In every other way, it's worse.

Why is it worse? So far you've only mentioned things that were also in the portable version. What made the portable version better?

[Cynical]

Portable version ran WAAAAY better than EE.  EE goes to single-digit FPS at 800x600 resolution; SSP runs smoothly up to 1024x768.  EE CTDs almost constantly, SSP is stable on every machine I've ever run it on.

 

The widescreen issue literally can't be fixed with a wrapper on SS1 (or with a mod), just because of how the engine works.  The aspect ratio is always going to be fucked in widescreen, that's just how it is.

[Sparktimus]

7 minutes ago, Cynical said:

Portable version ran WAAAAY better than EE.  EE goes to single-digit FPS at 800x600 resolution; SSP runs smoothly up to 1024x768.  EE CTDs almost constantly, SSP is stable on every machine I've ever run it on.

 

The widescreen issue literally can't be fixed with a wrapper on SS1 (or with a mod), just because of how the engine works.  The aspect ratio is always going to be fucked in widescreen, that's just how it is.

I dunno what version you're using, but EE has never crashed for me at all, and with the Source Port update, it runs at a constant buttery smooth 60fps even on maximum settings while SSP struggled over 30 FPS at times on max.

[OliveTree]

11 minutes ago, Cynical said:

SSP is stable on every machine I've ever run it on.

This comment is baffling to me especially after I clarified that it crashed frequently for me and was generally sluggish. SSEE ran perfectly for me. Basically we're going 'My anecdotal evidence is better!!!' 

[Liberation]

@Cynical I've never had any crashes or anything on the new version and I've played from start to finish. 

[Jon]

7 hours ago, TheMightyHeracross said:

Well first of all, if there's a patch to convert the GOG version to SSP, why are you even complaining? Just use that!

 

That was exactly what I was thinking. That and "why is this guy not banned yet"

 

[FractalBeast]

I know the Doom community is rather cynical, but Cynical... maybe you're getting a bit too cynical. Perhaps it's time to step back and cynically look at your own cynical attitude. :)

[Cruduxy Pegg]

+1 to the side who never had it crash.

[seed]

9 hours ago, Cynical said:

"Fixes or new features"

 

SSP has had SS1 running well in 1024x768 for years.  SSEE shits itself at 800x600.  Oh, and they added windowed mode, because playing FPSs in a tiny window is such a great experience compared to fullscreen amirite?

 

9 hours ago, EtherBot said:

* Mod Support

*Widescreen Support

*Better Performance For Low-End PC's (But who cares right, no way old-school focused gamers use lower end pc's)

*Better Controller Customization

*Actual Controller Support

 

I played SSEE basically as soon as it came out* and came across absolutely zero bugs. It was the only way I was even able to beat the game at all, considering how slow and crash-y DOSBox is on my computer.

 

*EDIT: As soon as it was rereleased in september

 

They've really put some effort in making SSEE great, by going as far as basically rebuilding the game from what I see here:

 

https://steamcommunity.com/games/410710/announcements/

[[McD] James]

I purchased and played through SSEE immediately when it was first released and had zero issues with it.

[whirledtsar]

17 hours ago, Jon said:

 

That was exactly what I was thinking. That and "why is this guy not banned yet"

 

Just disagreeing with the prevailing opinion isn't (or shouldn't be, at least) reason to be banned.

[kb1]

On 11/1/2018 at 8:57 PM, Cynical said:

First off, yes, it would have been better for them to buy and re-release SSP than to do what they did with SSEE.  Probably not practical for a variety of reasons, but better.

Better for who?

 

On 11/1/2018 at 8:57 PM, Cynical said:

But, they did have a choice.  SSP existed before ND owned SS.  If they saw SSP as being a problem (and there's no way they weren't aware of it, it was how everyone played SS1 for years before ND bought SS), they could have just not bought the SS franchise.  Simple solution.

By that logic, I could say: "You'd never be upset about SSP if you'd never been born." So, let me re-state for the anally-retentive:

Knowing that they are buying the franchise, what choice did they have?

 

What if SSP has a backdoor that steals keystrokes and sends them to some server on the web. ND would be liable to everyone that lost money. You could argue that SSP doesn't have a backdoor, but what's your proof? Should they buy the SSP source code? Should they hire the guy?  Sure, all those things are a possibility. But should ND have to be blackmailed like that? Of course not.

 

You know, if the programs were reversed, you wouldn't even be complaining. If SSEE was the rogue program, and ND had created SSP, you wouldn't even be posting about them. Your whole argument is "SSP" was cool, so ND sucks.

 

ND has positioned themselves to be able to move a dead franchise forward and you're whining about "your precious." Come on, man.

[Jon]

4 hours ago, whirledtsar said:

Just disagreeing with the prevailing opinion isn't (or shouldn't be, at least) reason to be banned.

 

I absolutely agree, and I don't think that's what's happening here. Opinions aside, I think there's some genuine bad behaviour going on.

[kristus]

From my experience, SSEE is the best version available for SS around. I don't see where Cynical is getting all these problems he experienced from. But SSP was never particularly good, just less complicated to run than original SS. The work ND did on Turok and Strife was really really good. Both Kaiser and Quasar has done some fantastic work for ND and the games and this tirade is basically shitting all over the kind of quality work that ND has done to bring these games back from obscurity and brokenness.

 

I can appreciate that he has misgivings with the way that ND handled things. I myself wasn't perfectly enamored by the Strife VE release. Mostly because it didn't let me set my controls up any way I liked. But that is a very specific situation to me and my unconventional control setup, I don't expect everyone to have those issues. Cynical's perspective is colored by his perspective and has left any objectivity behind and is just acting out.

[Manuel-K]

On 11/1/2018 at 10:27 PM, Cynical said:

They've been actively bad for the System Shock fanbase, compared to EA's willingness to let the IP rot.

They've released the source code with an open source license (GPL3) which lead to the shockolate project. That's the best thing that can happen to an old game, because it's the only way that makes it possible to preserve a game for the future.

[Cynical]

10 hours ago, kb1 said:

Better for who?

 

By that logic, I could say: "You'd never be upset about SSP if you'd never been born." So, let me re-state for the anally-retentive:

Knowing that they are buying the franchise, what choice did they have?

Key difference -- I had no choice in being born.  ND made the decision to buy SS knowing that SSP existed.  Huge difference.

"Knowing they are buying the franchise" -- that's like saying "What should BP have done in the Gulf Coast, knowing they were going to spill billions of gallons of oil there".  The correct answer is "they shouldn't have spilled billions of gallons of oil into the ocean".

 

ND has positioned themselves to be able to move a dead franchise forward and you're whining about "your precious." Come on, man.

"Moving the franchise forward"; is that what the kids are calling it now?  Reminder, their original kickstarter said they needed 18 months to do the SS1 remake; after the "hiatus" and "refocusing", they said they'll need 2 years from the start of the "hiatus", despite also claiming that they'd be able to reuse most of the assets they had made and that it's faster to create assets in UEngine, and the stuff they've shown off doesn't even look as good as the Unity demo.  How does this even happen?  They've literally made negative progress by every metric possible.

 

(This is assuming that the "Q1 2020" date wasn't named as a date when they'd hope people had forgotten about the whole thing and they could proceed to not deliver, or that the real cause for the new release date is that after firing their 15 experienced devs they've just left it in the hands of a few interns to have "progress" to show without having to spend any real money on it, both of which actually seem like more realistic scenarios.)

[OliveTree]

1 minute ago, Cynical said:

The correct answer is "they shouldn't have spilled billions of gallons of oil into the ocean".

Why on earth is it inherently bad to buy a game's IP? I swear this whole thread reads like complete actual nonsense.