Slaughterfest WADs: Pro or Anti?

[jazzmaster9]

Im not Anti Slaughtermaps. But i will be honest that I don't enjoy that kind of gameplay as much as regular maps and im somewhat disappointed that some beautiful mapsets get bogged down by this type of gameplah style. 

 

Though there is certainly an appeal to this that is undeniable and i admire the mappers who can pull Slaughtermaps off very well.

 

EDIT: After re reading this yeah... i guess disappointed is the wrong word here.

Edited November 10, 2018 by jazzmaster9

[seed]

10 hours ago, TakenStew22 said:

Can someone name any slaughtermaps that don't go too far? Like ones that can be challenging, but not too overwhelming and it gives you enough time to breath?

 

Not maps but megawads. Alien Vendetta, Hell Revealed (the original not the sequel), Combat Shock 2, Sunlust, Slaughterfest 2, more or less Slaughterfest 3, last 1-2 levels of Stardate 20x6 and 20x7, and the later maps of Scythe should all be enjoyable without getting torn to pieces.

[seed]

(Pressed the button once and the reply got posed twice, ignore this)

[Bauul]

Slightly odd suggestion out of left field,  but I grew to really enjoy slaughtermaps once I tried them with the game slowed down. I'm not sure about other source ports, but in (G)ZDoom i_timescale 0.5 will half the game speed.

 

Suddenly slaughtermaps previously impossible for me became a more leisurely puzzle test, as you majestically manipulate the battlefield to your favor. With more time to think, the strategies and tactics involved become easier to implement, and the whole thing becomes (at least for me) much more achievable and fun. 

 

I ended up beating quite a lot of Sunder like this, and grew to really appreciate a well designed slaughtermap. I think my brain just doesn't work fast enough to play them at full speed, but when slowed down they become really quite good fun.

[Kaido]

Yes, we all agree that slaughterfest wads are the best and that it should have won at least one cacoward .

[FractalBeast]

1 hour ago, Bauul said:

Slightly odd suggestion out of left field,  but I grew to really enjoy slaughtermaps once I tried them with the game slowed down. I'm not sure about other source ports, but in (G)ZDoom i_timescale 0.5 will half the game speed.

 

Suddenly slaughtermaps previously impossible for me became a more leisurely puzzle test, as you majestically manipulate the battlefield to your favor. With more time to think, the strategies and tactics involved become easier to implement, and the whole thing becomes (at least for me) much more achievable and fun. 

 

I ended up beating quite a lot of Sunder like this, and grew to really appreciate a well designed slaughtermap. I think my brain just doesn't work fast enough to play them at full speed, but when slowed down they become really quite good fun.

Like some kind of SUPER DOOM SUPER DOOM SUPER DOOM?

[94's the best style]

Honestly, I think that if people used (G)Zdoom features to add additional difficulty levels that were relegated to slaughter (like Serious difficulty in Serious Sam) then most of my gripes would be fixed. The thing is that UV is more of hard difficulty than hard+ difficulty, so I take it as the difficulty for experienced players and the way intended, instead of the difficulty for the friggin' dedicated madmen who live for the punishment. The fact that vanilla iwads are balanced so that UV is just right, doesn't help. 

 

Other personal gripe for me, and continuation to the previous point is the very grindy type of slaughter, Doom weapons aren't really balanced for fighting tons of enemies at once, so number keys 1-4 seem to go unused for most of the time, and I really like those weapons. 

[Pegleg]

16 hours ago, TakenStew22 said:

Can someone name any slaughtermaps that don't go too far? Like ones that can be challenging, but not too overwhelming and it gives you enough time to breath?

 

This falls into the category of "being in the eye of the beholder," but this is how I would answer you.

 

I've seen Rush (by @Archi) described as "entry level slaughter." So you could try that mapset (12 maps).

 

Some other suggestions from a slaughter question I once asked were:

Map 28 from Going Down (by @mouldy)

Maps 04 and 05 from New Gothic Movement 2 (by @ArmouredBlood and Archi)

Cryogenics (by @bemused)

[rodster]

It's ok to ask Questions, I guess. I don't mind repeating questions since I do that as well lol.

[Suitepee]

I seem to like some kinds of slaughtermaps, and dislike others.

 

And for some reason I seem to enjoy the few TimeofDeath offerings I've played so far in particular.

[baja blast rd.]

21 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Im not Anti Slaughtermaps. But i will be honest that I don't enjoy that kind of gameplay as much as regular maps and im somewhat disappointed that some beautiful mapsets get bogged down by this type of gameplah style.

 

Though there is certainly an appeal to this that is undeniable and i admire the mappers who can pull Slaughtermaps off very well.

 

I'm not anti-normalmaps. But I will be honest I don't enjoy that kind of gameplay as much as slaughter- or challenge maps and I'm somewhat disappointed that some beautiful mapsets fail to reach their potential by relying largely on non-oppressive monster placement that I rarely find exciting or interesting outside of speedrunning.

 

Though there is certainly an appeal to this that is undeniable, and I admire the mappers who can pull off normalmaps very well. 

 

 

To be clear, I don't feel that way (at least not all the time!), but a lot of people need to understand that these perspectives are equally valid. To be disappointed that a mapper put effort into making what they want to make, instead of what you happen to like, is to be very selfish. Not everything is made for everyone. 

 

I appreciate the numerous replies in this thread, like Capellan's, that actually acknowledge this:  

 

On 11/8/2018 at 4:42 PM, Capellan said:

I don't like playing slaughterwads myself, but I am "pro" in the sense that I support their existence for those who do like them.  There's far more Doom content than I will ever have time to play, and not every WAD needs to be "for me".

 

[jazzmaster9]

3 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

To be clear, I don't feel that way (at least not all the time!), but a lot of people need to understand that these perspectives are equally valid. To be disappointed that a mapper put effort into making what they want to make, instead of what you happen to like, is to be very selfish. Not everything is made for everyone. 

 

So I am not allowed to dislike a particular gameplay style and be dissapointed that maps dont meet my expectation gameplay wise? Okay...

 

I tried to be respectful to mappers who map in that Slaughterfest style and even acknowledge their appeal. but i guess thats not enough.

[Nine Inch Heels]

3 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

So I am not allowed to dislike a particular gameplay style

You are allowed not to like slaughter maps.
 

 

4 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

dissapointed that maps dont meet my expectation gameplay wise?

You have no reason to be disappointed over the fact that people create and share what they themselves enjoy.

[jazzmaster9]

10 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

You have no reason to be disappointed over the fact that people create and share what they themselves enjoy.

I don't like that style of gameplay, I don't know what else to say other then *shurg*

There are maps that *I* feel are bogged down by Slaugter gameplay, thats my PERSONAL opinion and Im not gonna force anyone to agree, but thats how i feel.

Im Sorry

 

Alright I guess dissapointed is the wrong word to use in this context. Apologies if i got carried away.

Slaugter maps just aint my thing, but im just sucker for gorgeous maps.

 

again sorry if my wording came out the  wrong way.

Edited November 10, 2018 by jazzmaster9

[Nine Inch Heels]

2 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

I don't like that style of gameplay, I don't know what else to say other then *shurg*

Nobody is denying you your personal preferences. But when you say that you're *disappointed* when a map does not cater to your personal preferences, it does come across as if you felt like mappers needed to design their content with your preferences in mind, and that's what I think was the point rd tried to get across. The way you phrased it just had a "weird" ring to it.

[jazzmaster9]

2 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Nobody is denying you your personal preferences. But when you say that you're *disappointed* when a map does not cater to your personal preferences, it does come across as if you felt like mappers needed to design their content with your preferences in mind, and that's what I think was the point rd tried to get across. The way you phrased it just had a "weird" ring to it.

Yeah now that i re read my comment it came across as condescending...

I mean i have huge respect for mappers who take the effort to make well crafted mass encounters. and I want in no way try to devalue their work.

[Doomkid]

Woah a conflict in a slaughter thread coming to a nice conclusion? What reality have I crossed over into?

 

Honestly, I think that if people used (G)Zdoom features to add additional difficulty levels that were relegated to slaughter (like Serious difficulty in Serious Sam) then most of my gripes would be fixed. The thing is that UV is more of hard difficulty than hard+ difficulty, so I take it as the difficulty for experienced players and the way intended, instead of the difficulty for the friggin' dedicated madmen who live for the punishment. The fact that vanilla iwads are balanced so that UV is just right, doesn't help.

I wish more modern mappers would take the time to re-name the difficulties accordingly; Usually, a modern pwad's HMP is hard enough to be reasonably labelled "Ultra Violence." Calling the old UV slot something like "Insanity" or "Super Ultra-Violence" would definitely suit many releases that have a higher than average difficulty.

 

Don't even get me started on the mappers who don't bother to implement difficulties whatsoever!

[ketmar]

2 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Don't even get me started on the mappers who don't bother to implement difficulties whatsoever!

wait, are there any other difficulties besides UV? and are there people playing on those? meh, i don't think so. no need to bother doing non-UV balacing.

[Doomkid]

Well, you are incorrect in your assertion that no one uses the easier difficulties. Threads and polls have been conducted, iirc nearly half of players play below the UV mark so yeah it's kinda lazy to not have a cursory addition of extra health, ammo and arms for easier difficulties. I mean obviously no one will force you to, but admit that it's simply lazy craftsmanship (unless the author has very, very specific setups in mind that they don't want disturbed, but even then I find that just a bit of a cop out)

[ReaperAA]

@Doomkid That joke made by Ketmar went over ur head.

 

I do agree with what u said though. Authors should take less skilled players into consideration too.

[VanaheimRanger]

I like a good challenging map like a @skillsaw wad, but I can't really play true slaughter maps, it takes a skill I just don't have.  However I am not against their existence, I like watching people play slaughter wads on twitch.  As long as there are people who enjoy playing that type of wad, I say let people keep making them.

[Doomkid]

7 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

@Doomkid That joke made by Ketmar went over ur head.

 

I do agree with what u said though. Authors should take less skilled players into consideration too.

Forgive my ignorance, I didn’t realize it was a joke, it sailed right over.

[seed]

38 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Forgive my ignorance, I didn’t realize it was a joke, it sailed right over.

 

I didn't realize it was a joke at first either :v .

[bioshockfan90]

Just popping in to plug this thread that I made a while back that has a lot of slaughtermap recommendations for anyone that's reading this thread and wants to try it out.

[pulkmees]

If there are only 1-2 slaughtermaps in a wad, that could be completed by average doomers then I will play them. But whole wads ? No.

 

I rather the difficulty come from a fewer enemies  placed unexpectedly than a lot of them. 4 Revenant rockets to the face has the same effect as 32 to me. I'm oversimplifying obviously, but that's what it comes down to at the end - more enemies.

[rehelekretep]

thats a gross oversimplification. the tactics required for a challenge map or normal maps versus a slaughtermap are quite different and the addition of x10 extra enemies is not a guarantee of any particular outcome without other context.

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

I'm going to quote something Ribbiks said a few years back.

On 11/7/2013 at 10:58 AM, Ribbiks said:

this. Even though I think most people associate the term solely with the number of monsters for me it's a combination of difficulty and the way enemies are presented to the player:

- arcadey combat situations: each cluster of monsters explicitly serves to either restrict movement or be an immediate threat.
- crowd management: space is always a concern, fortunately doomguy is a master sheepdog.
- difficulty: in general the map design is harsh, every area should be able to kill you if ya fuckup a bit.
- ammo management: well placed ssg/rocket/bfg and well coordinated infighting play a large role

To reiterate that monster count isn't everything consider the last room in cs2_02, with a grand total of 3 monsters it still 'feels' like a slaughter encounter to me.

This is probably the best definition of what a "slaughtermap" is, really. Monster count isn't what defines a slaughter encounter.

[CaptainResident]

They're fine. They can be great and pretty satisfying to think "now I'm REALLY fighting legions of Hell!" but I don't like some where it was all fine and dandy right before switching to slaughtermaps/other off-the-wall nonsense towards the end [*cough* Scythe 2 *cough*].

 

I mean, spawning with one of the couple Cyberdemons in the map a couple feet in front of you? Bit of a weird thing there, even for final levels.

 

TL;DR: Nice if done right.

[VanaheimRanger]

On 11/10/2018 at 12:36 PM, bioshockfan90 said:

Just popping in to plug this thread that I made a while back that has a lot of slaughtermap recommendations for anyone that's reading this thread and wants to try it out.

I'd love a thread on very challenging wads that aren't considered slaughter as well.  Got any of those?

[Nine Inch Heels]

Just now, guitardz said:

I'd love a thread on very challenging wads that aren't considered slaughter as well.  Got any of those?

just play ribbiks maps that aren't slaughter