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hardcore_gamer

Why is the modding community so extremely small?

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For both Doom as well as all games in general?

 

Think about it. We are talking about MILLIONS of sold copies for the most popular games and yet they will spawn maybe enough high profile mods to be counted on a single hand. And even if we count all the modders rather than just the higher profile ones it's still a laughable number compared to the number of copies sold.

 

Why is interest in game modding so extremely limited considering that MILLIONS of people are buying games?

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Because it's hard?And not many people have something i like to call a "creationist drive" when it comes to games (many gamers are more into making music,art,etc...)

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7 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said:

For both Doom as well as all games in general?

 

Think about it. We are talking about MILLIONS of sold copies for the most popular games and yet they will spawn maybe enough high profile mods to be counted on a single hand. And even if we count all the modders rather than just the higher profile ones it's still a laughable number compared to the number of copies sold.

 

Why is interest in game modding so extremely limited considering that MILLIONS of people are buying games?

Because not every game is easily moddable, and every new generation it's harder to mod. The interest was never the problem, it's accessibility. Why do you think Doom has so much extra content made by the community? Easy to mod = more interest = more mods.

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At least 5 billion people have seen at least one painting in their lives. Probably 1 billion have visited an art gallery.

 

Yet, why oh why are there just like 5-10000 people, who started making their own paintings (on a level where it can be sold to an art gallery)?

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Also consider that the amount of companies with a supportive attitude towards modding are small. And it's shrinking everyday.

 

What big mod friendly companies still exist? Valve, id, Bethesda...

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Modding community small? Are you kidding?

Can be small for specific games but take Doom for example....we have LOTS of mods thanks to the modders out there. So uh...no, I don't consider the modding community small and the amount of modders are growing due of the knowledge shared between them...

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12 minutes ago, FractalBeast said:

Also consider that the amount of companies with a supportive attitude towards modding are small. And it's shrinking everyday.

 

What big mod friendly companies still exist? Valve, id, Bethesda...

 

Even in the past there were not that many modders vs the people who bought the game.

 

12 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

Modding community small? Are you kidding?

Can be small for specific games but take Doom for example....we have LOTS of mods thanks to the modders out there. So uh...no, I don't consider the modding community small and the amount of modders are growing due of the knowledge shared between them...

 

Doom has lots of mods because the game has had decades to see them being made. And it's still a joke considering how many people have played Doom.

 

Yes I know it's hard and that it takes effort to learn how to do it, but even when factoring this in it still seems insane to me that a few MILLION customers would only spawn a few hundred devoted modders for it even when the tools are there. It legit makes me wonder if 99% of humans are just living machines programmed for just hedonism and nothing else.

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47 minutes ago, 𝕲𝖗𝖎𝖒𝖔𝖘𝖆𝖚𝖗 said:

Also, many people that bought the game might not even be aware that there is a modding community for it or even if you can mod for it, let alone if they would want to join themselves. Most people who buy a game do it just for that, the game, nothing more nothing less.

This was me for years.  I didn't learn about Doom modding until someone showed me Brutal Doom in 2012, and even then I didn't know about the plethora of user-made maps until the beginning of this year...I still have a lot to catch up on.

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Modding, depending on the scope, might require some extensive knowledge and skills. 2D and 3D graphics are demanding in different ways, then there is the inevitable and copious coding which might range from easy to nigh impossible on case-by-case basis. With Doom, the abundance of tools made by a devoted community over two and a half decades make some of these challenges much easier, but many other fandoms have no such luxury. And, of course, modding is generally more of a hobby than a full-time endeavor. Studies and work generally come first (for an obvious reason, I believe). And once again, the magnitude of the project and the number of people working on it have a significant influence on the quality and speed of progress. The popularity of the game also has an effect: there's little to no reason busting your ass over a major project literally no one will play.

 

All of this is a layman's take though, since I've yet to develop or mod anything (thanks, perfectionism), so please do correct me if any of this is incorrect.

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There has been 200+ (if I'm not mistaken) wads released into /idgames only in 2018. That's a lot for me haha

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6 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said:

And even if we count all the modders rather than just the higher profile ones it's still a laughable number compared to the number of copies sold.

true for every game that has ever been modded. I don't see the problem.

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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Modders don't work full-time to make free wads for you, they make maps for themselves in their spare time.

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Even though there are MILLIONS of people who bought the game, it doesn't mean there are MILLIONS of people who ACTUALLY played the game.

Edited by GarrettChan : wrong conjunction

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1 minute ago, GarrettChan said:

If there are MILLIONS of people who bought the game, it doesn't mean there are MILLIONS of people who ACTUALLY played the game.

Not to mention, there are a lot of people like myself who have bought multiple copies of Doom over the years for whatever reason.

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1 hour ago, hardcore_gamer said:

Doom has lots of mods because the game has had decades to see them being made. And it's still a joke considering how many people have played Doom.

 

This is partly true, but you also seem to be missing a crucial aspect that has already been pointed out: Doom was made with modding in mind and id Software actively encouraged and endorsed the modding of their products.

 

Wolfenstein 3D was released shortly before Doom, so by your logic shouldn't Wolfenstein 3D have more mods? Modding for Wolfenstein 3D most certainly does exist, but that game wasn't built with modders in mind and so the community-created tools are much more difficult to work with by comparison with Doom's. This is why you will more often than not see mods that emulate Wolfenstein 3D's limitations that actually utilize the Doom engine, because it is literally easier to emulate Wolfenstein 3D's style elsewhere than it is to utilize the actual engine.

 

Modern games more often than not are not built to facilitate modding, in fact I'd suspect that most mordern games are built in direct opposition of it. Most big companies do not give a shit about the artistic expression of their customers, and will do everything in their power to limit the possible artistic expression a customer might derive from modifying their product if they think it might have even an infinitesimal chance of harming their profit margins (i.e., they think modding the game will produce a cracked version that can be pirated).

 

1 minute ago, guitardz said:

Not to mention, there are a lot of people like myself who have bought multiple copies of Doom over the years for whatever reason.

 

Me too!

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2 minutes ago, Skeletonpatch said:

Modern games more often than not are not built to facilitate modding, in fact I'd suspect that most mordern games are built in direct opposition of it. Most big companies do not give a shit about the artistic expression of their customers, and will do everything in their power to limit the possible artistic expression a customer might derive from modifying their product if they think it might have even an infinitesimal chance of harming their profit margins (i.e., they think modding the game will produce a cracked version that can be pirated).

Most of that would still hold true if you struck out the "modern" part, really.  A lot of stuff from before Doom's era (and even during) wasn't even stored on rewritable media but rather ROM chips, and only became editable at all thanks to the emulation scene.  And even on PC, games that explicitly supported modding have always been more of an exception than a rule.

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4 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said:

It legit makes me wonder if 99% of humans are just living machines programmed for just hedonism and nothing else.

 

Yeah, because those people couldn't possibly have any other interests than modding videogames... You know, actually, maybe some of those people barely have any free time at all, played Doom once and then forgot that the game existed. There are SO many factors that you could take into account, so many little things that could affect someone's decisions, but no. IT'S HEDONISM.

 

really try to understand your point of view on certain topics, but some of your ideas make that incredibly hard. And it happens time and time again, it's getting ridiculous at this point, but maybe that isn't your fault? Like that behaviour is hardcoded into your brain or something? I don't know man, I don't get it.

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Doom has been modded for 25 years and counting. There are hundreds of thousands of user-made levels, hundreds of new monsters, many many thousands of flats, textures, and sounds. There are dozens of editors now, some of extremely high quality - tools that were not available in the beginning.

 

Doom modding is growing, after 25 years. That's nothing short of amazing. Yet, in every type of modding, only a small fraction of players have the interest and capability of putting together a quality mod. That's true for Doom, and every other imaginable community.

 

@hardcore_gamer: Your assessment makes no sense to me: Many thousands of people have modded Doom, beyond anyone's wildest imaginations, with no sign of stopping. And, thank goodness that's true. Long live Doom!

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Yeah, it's another goofy thread, however, threads like this do get people talking, which can become somewhat interesting.

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9 hours ago, SOSU said:

Because it's hard?And not many people have something i like to call a "creationist drive" when it comes to games (many gamers are more into making music,art,etc...)

 

Sums up my thoughts on the topic.

 

Some of us are just players who want to try out stuff, not to necessarily get involved into the modding scene one day, for various reasons.

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17 hours ago, GarrettChan said:

Even though there are MILLIONS of people who bought the game, it doesn't mean there are MILLIONS of people who ACTUALLY played the game.

 

Well that's probably true now that we can buy dozens of games on steam sales but it wasn't really the case in the past. I remember when buying a new game was like a major event because I only got like 1 or 2 new games a year.

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How many people are creative in general? Yes, maybe everyone at some level but how many is really creating something.

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20 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said:

It legit makes me wonder if 99% of humans are just living machines programmed for just hedonism and nothing else.

 

Making and playing mods is pretty hedonistic you know. Just imagine what the ancient Greek philosophers would say if they knew mankind had mystical thunderboxes that could tell time, store texts and perform calculations, and adults use those mystical thunderboxes to play with toys (because that's what videogames are in essence).

 

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5 minutes ago, FractalBeast said:

 

Making and playing mods is pretty hedonistic you know. Just imagine what the ancient Greek philosophers would say if they knew mankind had mystical thunderboxes that could tell time, store texts and perform calculations, and adults use those mystical thunderboxes to play with toys (because that's what videogames are in essence).

 

 

Well yea 99.9% of modern westerners are basically the cenobites from hellraiser compared to the ancients lol. My point was merely that that most people don't have any creative drive.

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Having tried my hand with New Vegas modding, I can say it's not for a lot of people, I almost stopped with that until I made a mostly functional companion mod (never released it), I haven't gone back into the NV G.E.C.K. for a while but I've been planing on it.
As for Doom mapping/modding, it's more approachable in certain cases thanks to things like Doom Builder but too many people think Doom/Doom2 are too old from what I've seen over time.

Being new to modding in general I found it rely frustrating at first for both New Vegas and Doom until I made something that worked and I think a good chunk of people who try give up before they actually have a chance to make something semi-functional.

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58 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said:

 

Well yea 99.9% of modern westerners are basically the cenobites from hellraiser compared to the ancients lol. My point was merely that that most people don't have any creative drive.

Why single-out westerners? Kind of a low blow.

 

Many people are creative - that's not the only barrier to Doom mod creation. For example:

  • Doom modding can be intimidating.
  • There's a pretty steep learning curve involved.
  • It takes a long time to become proficient.
  • "Creative" people might be busy creating other things. There's only 24 hours in a day.
  • Many of today's mods are extremely complex, adding to the intimidation factor.

The community helps with a lot of these issues, with encouragement, helpful technical knowledge, better tools, and the sharing and promotion of great mods.

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