[FINAL RELEASE] Eviternity

[Budoka]

13 hours ago, FerrFerr said:

Apart from that tho. I absolutely recommend activating coop monsters if you want a different and much harder experience.

I did, and Drain kicked my ass. Yes, Drain. It's clearly doable though...

[Carnifex]

Thank you for making and sharing Eviternity. It's amazing and I'm having a great time playing through it.

I understand this is the final release, but I wanted to report something in case you were interested. I died twice going through the final exit portal in Map 15: Crynology and had to start from my last save rather than continue to the next level. Specifically the Stonehedge-esque exit (specifying because my Youtube searches showed a different exit in this level). The third time I tried going through the portal I was able to progress to the next level. I thought this might be a problem for speedrunners.

I played this on Doom Retro v4.2.2 with no other mods.

 

Again, I respect your decision to keep the release final but thought you might be interested in this info.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Carnifex

[Magicana]

22 minutes ago, Carnifex said:

Thank you for making and sharing Eviternity. It's amazing and I'm having a great time playing through it.

I understand this is the final release, but I wanted to report something in case you were interested. I died twice going through the final exit portal in Map 15: Crynology and had to start from my last save rather than continue to the next level. Specifically the Stonehedge-esque exit (specifying because my Youtube searches showed a different exit in this level). The third time I tried going through the portal I was able to progress to the next level. I thought this might be a problem for speedrunners.

I played this on Doom Retro v4.2.2 with no other mods.

 

Again, I respect your decision to keep the release final but thought you might be interested in this info.

 

I think if you hit certain keys in certain ports during a death exit, it will restart the level instead of progressing to the next level as normal.

 

Edit: Went and tried it out.

 

The first time I was spamming the use key, second time hands off keyboard.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2021 by Magicana

[Carnifex]

@Magicana Thanks for the answer and providing the footage. I'll be more careful in the future when exiting levels.

[Magicana]

48 minutes ago, Carnifex said:

@Magicana Thanks for the answer and providing the footage. I'll be more careful in the future when exiting levels.

 

All good.

 

This was a handy reminder that I was half way through a replay of Evilternity! I really should get back into it.

[Nilex]

Hi, my first time with this mod. Impressive first level already.

I've set up GZDoom to be as vanilla as possible, as starting point for Eviternity.

What extra features should I enable to have the intended experience? Thanks.

• jumping
• moving under/above enemies
• mouselook
• custom automap colors
• anything else I missed?

[Shepardus]

13 minutes ago, Nilex said:

Hi, my first time with this mod. Impressive first level already.

I've set up GZDoom to be as vanilla as possible, as starting point for Eviternity.

What extra features should I enable to have the intended experience? Thanks.

• jumping
• moving under/above enemies
• mouselook
• custom automap colors
• anything else I missed?

No jumping/crouching, no moving under/above enemies, no mouselook (I assume you're referring to looking up/down). In GZDoom's compatibility flags options, you can probably just use the "Boom (strict)" preset. I don't know if Eviternity was designed with any particular automap colors or other visual settings in mind, but if you're aiming for a vanilla-ish look, this guide should help:

 

[MattFright]

28 minutes ago, Shepardus said:

you can probably just use the "Boom (strict)" preset.

Eviternity is MBF, not Boom. So you should actually use MBF(strict) if you want the intended experience @Nilex.

 

Things like jumping, mouselook and such are most likely already set to what they're intended by the wad via ZMAPINFO, so i wouldn't worry about that.

[Nilex]

The video above is actually what I used to set it up some weeks ago. Small world, hehe.

Then I shall set MBF (strict) and revert those fancy Hardware Rendering options back to GZ defaults (Tonemap/Lightmode/night vision). Hell, may even throw in particles/decals/transparency. When it rains it pours, right. Very interested to see how long it takes me to grab the elusive Minigun because I gave up thinking jumping was involved. Anyway thanks again, you two gave me exactly what I wanted.

 

UPDATE: found out this to be the most important non-vanilla/non-default option.

Display Options > Hardware Rendered (Full Menu) > Sector light mode: Standard

In addition to megawad seemingly being designed around this, it makes 2 Imps in grated alcoves on opposite side actually visible (MAP 01 on UV), as well as making discovering 2nd secret more user-friendly (akin to OG Doom). Highly recommend this option for those few who stumble on this post. Least I forget, transparency feature still sucks at it ever has. From one purists to another: turn dat sheit off like your life depends on it!

Edited October 14, 2021 by Nilex : extra info tidbit, after some GZ tinkering and plowing through this entire topic

[Dragonfly]

13 hours ago, Nilex said:

In addition to megawad seemingly being designed around this

 

While I do play with that light mode quite often; it's okay for it to be dark. Anywhere the player needs to go is illuminated accordingly - you'll soon realise there's some imps behind bars when fireballs come from there, after all. :)

[Shepardus]

16 hours ago, Nilex said:

Least I forget, transparency feature still sucks at it ever has. From one purists to another: turn dat sheit off like your life depends on it!

That's all fine if you're talking about projectiles, but there are some levels that make use of translucent walls (MAP22 for example), so make sure you're not disabling that.

[Nilex]

@Dragonfly

Too dark can be a serious design flaw. Infinitely dark in this case, turning tactical approach into trial&error. Two Imps are easy enough, but how about 2 Masterminds shooting you off into a death pit. Not an unimaginable future from my perspective since it's only the 1st level. Alcoves' depth also cannot be visually gauged (anyone here trusts automap?). Could be 1m deep or a 100m tunnel leading into secret area perhaps. Actual 2nd secret is a tedious wall hunt with any setting other than "Standard". Luckily everything on my end gets resolved by that singe switch (from pre-existing default setup) so I deemed it worthy of mention. Really does make that much of a difference.

Speaking for myself, it's mostly about where player doesn't need to go. Roughly 3/4 of the fun is getting into designer's head trying to figure out where did he put the next secret, or an Easter egg if we are lucky. Enemies serve as little more than a resource management distraction to achieve that goal. The other 1/4 being the story no matter how sparse. Olden days of enjoyable and thoughtful enemy placement (MAP08: Barons+Cybie & Rocket+Pinkys) in FPS are long gone I'm afraid.

Of course, the impact of the setting may vary widely depending on other display options, physical hardware (maybe even drivers), and addons. I suspect it hasn't been brought up before mostly because it's not as pronounced on other systems, people not caring for details, and those that do care know how to fine-tune their setup. I care but still learning the tuning part since this will be my first vanilla-incompatible WAD. God knows GZ is anything but user-friendly when it comes to its config menu.

Anyway since you decided to show up I'll take the opportunity to congratulate you on a very impressive looking project. Over the years I learned to read between the lines to see what I'll end up liking, and what can I dismiss right away based on the first half of first promotional sentence of most other projects. Valuable trait in my age and broad interests, saving time only for creme-de-la-creme the world has to offer. This looks lit AF, Thank you :)

 

@Shepardus

Yeah I meant projectiles specifically. Geez they look hideous transparent. Like trying to spit after chewing a mouthful of Haribo gummy bears. Is there a separate transparency switch for level geometry or is it shared with projectiles? I don't shy away from config diving if need be... Engine search spat out 4 MAPs: 09/15/22/23 so I'll keep my eyes pealed. In any case Thanks for the heads-up!

[Not Jabba]

I played this with the software renderer, which I'm pretty sure is darker than any GL light setting that GZDoom has. It's fine. I promise you there are no ninja Masterminds.

[Bridgeburner56]

The ninja Masterminds are in the DLC

[leodoom85]

The darkness is strong in this one...

[Nilex]

BUG report: MAP32 (Anagnorisis) has a rather obvious graphical + soft-lock glitch switch.

Set of stairs further down retracts leaving you unable to get out of the small enclosed pit.

Adjusting "sprite clipping" has no visual effect.

Eviternity v1.0; GZDoom v4.7.0.

 

To reproduce: load save and activate switch in front of you, the side it activates from.

save0.7z

[ukiro]

The sprite glitch is not present in other ports, and is purely cosmetic. That the switch can be activated multiple times, even when it's "hidden", is indeed an error/bug. But there should always be a path out of the area, IIRC, even when this happens.

[Nilex]

Switch is single use. No way out (MBF Strict).

Going the intended red key path and opening all doors (or most, I lost count) makes switch go away into the structure. Functionally it can still be activated which makes the aforementioned stairs one-way only, as before. However in this scenario there are many ways out. I reported the one where there are none.

 

Completing roughly 75% of your colossus, I have to ask - would it killed you if you'd placed couple rad suits around (UV)? Perfect map otherwise. '90s dream come true.

[ukiro]

I'd have to check on softlock; In my testing there was always a way out regardless of path/sequence, but red building is such a mindfuck that I might have missed some setup.

 

As for absence of rad suits: It's intentional and understandably not in everyone's taste. The idea is that adding them would imply the lava is worth exploring, which is not the case nor how the level is designed, save for one megasphere secret (which you can spot from other angles). Having no rad suits conveys the role of the lava: A structural foe and enforcer of the various paths through the level.

 

"90s dream come true" hits home; I've been at this since 94 and wanted to distill all those years into a level that represents my initial (and continuing) awe for Doom. So thank you very much for that sentiment.

[Nilex]

19.99 if made by Romero

 

Just finished the other day. Wow.

 

Although Doom1/2 is probably my favorite pure FPS I'm not really part of this community. I admire people who create MODs and all that but whenever I get the itch it's always scratched by regular base games and then I'm off again to play something else. Kinda like Chubz, whose Eviternity review on YT forced me to make an exception and bookmark it in TO-DO folder. Two years later I was sorting Doom source ports and crossed paths with this megawad again only this time it was go time. My first time playing non-vanilla compatible WAD.

 

Levels are pure perfection. All of them, as well as chapter themes. Starting with the first one which is the best level/mission opener I can remember. Geometry, architecture, and well measured use of new textures goes above commercial quality. I'm particularly fond of smaller levels in the first chapter halves, use of space is so well done. Loved getting lost in them only to suddenly emerge back in familiar places.

Favorite fight were the 300 Lost Soul spam in M32. Knew something was up when I turned around and FPS dropped to 5 for the first time. Brought me back to days of trying to play new SVGA games on our just 2 year old 486 DX2 80MHz 16MB RAM (kids of today will never know). And then feeling FPS raising with every rocket hit.

Telegraphing secrets is phenomenal. Romero approved guidelines. Managed to find them all on my own although I had to use texture view on 3 occasions. M32 blue key building Soul Sphere took over 90 mins before I activated texture view for the first time. Makes a lot of difference when one spends 5 hours on a map and knows it like palm of his hand. Same trick on M19 with Blue Armor and 5 HP vials. M24 and its BFG+Automap room was the last such case. Favorite and most rewarding secret was in M16, central Soul Sphere. I had to think like level designer and then I found it! The last place I looked ofc. Only took 15 mins in comparison.

 

Part that sucked, and where it's obvious it's a fan WAD, is there are around 30-50% too many enemies in virtually every level. Even more, player is thrown into numerous gotcha shoebox sized clusterfucks which are simply not fun (M5,C3/4/5). My position is that after challenge reaches certain level, anything more just becomes a chore. Result will be the same it's only gonna take longer and be less fun. I think ideal difficulty peak should not go too much above original E4 or NRftL. Presumably due to natural player base bias in this joint the issue hasn't been brought up often but exists. I grew slightly disappointed as time went but luckily the last chapter fixed a lot of that by often letting the player escape, arena sizes increased, and infighting setups became viable. Eviternity would be even better if that was the rule rather than exception.

 

As a die-hard completionist I made a 100% run (items too) on UV and it took 26 hours in-game or 2 weeks real. Time well spent. If game quality calls for it and time permitting I impose certain additional challenges on myself, for added flavor and increased memorabilia. For Doom and clones that means revealing whole Automap whenever possible, min-max ammo, and avoid taking damage (except forced). Otherwise games like these are too easy and completed too quickly, and I want to take my sweet time taking it all in. Despite everything there is only one instance of forced damage in Eviternity (tnx God for rad suits). There are 2 instances where SR50 has to be used to avoid floor damage. All fights, no matter how fucky, can be won unscratched. To me the possibility of a no-damage run is like a seal of approval of Godly quality.

Knowing that there are no plans for an update I'd like to make a suggestion to address it anyway, as a lone crusader, along with couple other issues. Patch WAD was not ruled out so fingers crossed.

 

* * *

 

M21 has a Soul Sphere at the end of a long lava tunnel thus collecting it forces 3 damage hits. My suggestion is to add Invincibility secret near the Cyberdemon, so the player thinks that is its intended use. A fucky fight that will probably end with a rocket to the face and waste of a powerup as player climbs back up, or just allowing buzzing past him for the lazy. But invaluable tool for a full no-damage run.

 

M18 has a design flaw that locks out 20% of the level along with 2 secrets. If the player takes the left path first he'll eventually emerge on the northern part of BFG walkway and unlock path to it. This will lower and conceal a switch that opens two locked doors beneath. Player will never know there is/was a switch there (still usable though).

It was actually my longest eluding secret, taking over 2 hours, after which I restarted the level suspecting something like this happened when I cleared left path first. Reason why left is more appealing than right it to map out all rad suits and avoid otherwise forced damage on right path. I'd just move the switch in toxic canal section next to the locked doors, if the intent for player was to experience the mini-ambush down there before opening them. Otherwise no reason for it to become hidden at any point.

 

M26 has gold texture wrongly applied to one of its many stairs (the first one). Unplayable, but since I already came this far...

 

* * *

 

Finally I wish to Thank everyone involved, you guys made me re-experience Doom like it was the first time again. Lots of jaw dropping moments (of appreciation eh). Music is spectacular throughout and found it very fitting. Favorite were occasional Billie Jean beats on M32. That's it, got tons more great moments to share but I don't want to ween you guys off your slaughter-fests, hehe. Cheers.

[Dragonfly]

Thanks for your kind words! I must admit I'm very perplexed by a lot of the feedback though. On one hand you're criticising monster counts and on the other you're stating that the huuuuge horde of lost souls was good, heh.

 

Using "damageless possibility" as a metric is quite possibly one of the most arbitrary angles you could look at it from - taking damage is a core part of the game and if you're beating UV more-or-less damageless, then I fail to understand where the "issue" regarding the volume of enemies comes into effect? 

 

Regardless, it seems you enjoyed yourself all in all, thanks for playing!

[Nilex]

Yeah I can see how it's confusing. Will preemptively explain why I didn't select lower difficulty too.

No-damage is just something for me (although where there is one...), I gauged critique around that limitation. Still would have been a chore with normal approach albeit less. My bad for not being clear.

 

Spartan Lost Souls was such a damn enjoyable fight. Arena setup is perfect and their lower HP made it all work. A fair fight which I'll remember until I die. The unfair ones I disliked, where you are cut-off from escaping with almost no room to wiggle around. Some of that IS good but best saved for rare special occasions. I know I'm in a minority saying that here but from an outsider's perspective it's just how it's done outside.

As far enemy counts go, so long they are spread around I don't mind high numbers. Eviternity could have used a bit more of those quiet moments to bring out the beauty of its wonderful vistas more. M19/32 are good examples of spreading out although it could have been even better still. Learned of new ways to hate Mancubus in M32 btw hehe. Might as well take the opportunity to commend the way how yellow key fight was handled. That's how it's done. Give us a way out even if it takes a few deaths to get there.

 

Didn't go bellow UV because Chapters I&II gave me no reason to doubt my choice. It didn't happen until red key fight arena in M14, the first real clusterfuck. But even if I knew, playing bellow UV is like playing shareware. F that. I rather suffer and if it sucks, it sucks. No regrets here though, just let it serve as a cautionary tale for wanderers coming after me. I do find that having some idea what to expect is often better than none. To cushion the blow so to speak or maybe adjust difficulty before it's too late, that's why I mentioned it.

The good is so GOOD it catapults the whole thing into a must-play megawad for everyone. As far as myself, yes I enjoyed immensely! More than I could put in words :)

[Horus]

15 minutes ago, Nilex said:

But even if I knew, playing bellow UV is like playing shareware. F that. I rather suffer and if it sucks, it sucks.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed Eviternity, but I cannot recommend more ditching this mindset. Difficulties are implemented for a reason, and that is to cater to a wide range of abilities. There is no shame in playing on a lower difficulty, be it from the start or switching part way through a WAD. Much better than making things unfun for yourself due to stubbornly following some arbitrary limitation. 

[Bauul]

7 hours ago, Nilex said:

My position is that after challenge reaches certain level, anything more just becomes a chore. Result will be the same it's only gonna take longer and be less fun. I think ideal difficulty peak should not go too much above original E4 or NRftL.

 

Just so you know where the above comments are coming from, there are few things more frustrating for a mapper to hear than someone criticizing their work for being too hard, but simultaneously refusing to play on anything other than "hard mode".  Like, the clue is in the name - it's meant to be hard, that's why it's hard mode.  If easy mode is too hard, then that becomes more of a valid conversation.

 

Try to recognize that the limitations you placed on yourself are your limitations.  It's fine if you want to limit yourself to playing only UV and trying to avoid all damage, but if that makes the experience less fun for you, then that's entirely your doing.  You deliberately chose to make the wad hard by playing on hard mode, so you can appreciate why it's difficult to reconcile your feedback when you then complain about it being too hard.

[Shepardus]

Playing on skill levels below UV is nothing like "playing shareware"; shareware involves cutting content from the full package, while other skill levels, if anything, are additional content, because the map author has to determine the thing placements for each skill level. The least you could do is at least respect that effort. To refuse to play lower skill levels while also suggesting that difficulty "should not go too much above original E4 or NRftL" is mind-boggling, to put it lightly.

[Nilex]

Good FPS with proper save/load feature cannot be hard or difficult but it can get tedious. Forced tightly packed boxing ring fights with no cover are not fun in any difficulty, but are tedious in all of them. Sucks by design. Some more, some less. It's not like Doom's weapons are envisioned for such things. Fear not though, for I have no intention of changing your accustomed ways. Already said all that was on my mind anyway.

My self imposed challenge isn't even a point of contempt btw. Only mentioned it as trivia, and for a tiny suggestion beneficial to occasional fellow brothers-in-arms out there that are bound to pass by one day.

[i suck at nicknames]

2 hours ago, Bauul said:

 

Just so you know where the above comments are coming from, there are few things more frustrating for a mapper to hear than someone criticizing their work for being too hard, but simultaneously refusing to play on anything other than "hard mode".  Like, the clue is in the name - it's meant to be hard, that's why it's hard mode.  If easy mode is too hard, then that becomes more of a valid conversation.

 

Try to recognize that the limitations you placed on yourself are your limitations.  It's fine if you want to limit yourself to playing only UV and trying to avoid all damage, but if that makes the experience less fun for you, then that's entirely your doing.  You deliberately chose to make the wad hard by playing on hard mode, so you can appreciate why it's difficult to reconcile your feedback when you then complain about it being too hard.

 

I've honestly never thought of it that way. UV is generally considered the default "gentlemans way" to play Doom, so I assume a lot of players (definitely myself included) boot up the wads they have on UV on first go by force of habit. Tho yeah....the skill level is definitely something self-imposed, although many of us never tend to realize it until it's pointed out to us, which does give your point here alot of sense. Illogical then, to complain about the difficulty on 'hard-mode'....been guilty of this myself. 

 

Thanks for giving me a new perspective on how map creators tend to look at things like this.  

[Dragonfly]

This whole conversation should take place in a thread of it's own, if you please.

 

 

Anyway, to close this conversation quickly and consisely - there's a reason the selection cursor's DEFAULT POSITION is on Hurt Me Plenty when you are first prompted. I didn't spend numerous hours fine tuning and testing each difficulty setting for people to complain about the hardest difficulty being too hard or "tedious" as you put it. If there's too much grind, step down a difficulty and enjoy playing with less enemies where the grind isn't present.

 

Oh, and lastly...

 

3 hours ago, Nilex said:

It's not like Doom's weapons are envisioned for such things.

 

[Rudolph]

So I started playing this with @Grizzly's modified Blood Fixer mod (thank you, by the way!) and I have a question for @Dragonfly regarding the Nightmare Demon's blood color. On the intro splash screen, it is very clearly red. However, Grizzly made it sort of teal. However, if I look closely at the Nightmare Demon's corpse, I can see some teal-ish liquid coming out of its mouth.

 

So what is supposed to be the Nightmare Demon's color to begin with?

 

[Dragonfly]

A nuance / inconsistency I've not noticed or given thought to; admittedly. I think if it's in-game the tealish colour would make sense most so that it works best with the sprite. This discrepancy comes from having different artists produce the different assets; where the sprites are by Amuscaria and reworked by Eris Falling & Antares, but the title screen is by Cage.

To further back up my stance above, I suppose "ignoring" the titlepic is the canonical way to look at Doom anyway! Note how in Doom's titlepic the marine's using a gun not even available in the game, and in Doom II's titlepic, Doomguy has a ridiculous haircut not seen anywhere else and the Cyberdemon's rocket launcher is on the wrong arm. :P