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MsKaye

SIGIL v1.21 - New Romero megawad [released!]

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41 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

He should be giving us free stuff instead

But that's what he's doing! The wad will be a free download, and he also gracefully released for free a lot of Doom development stuff.

 

Now the boxes are seriously overpriced ($50 for the regular version, $166 for the deluxe, shipping not included), so it's clearly only for die-hard fans with quite a bit of disposable income. But as long as the electronic content is made available free of charge, I won't complain.

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So we've got:

 

-Gamers who are complaining about getting something for free.

-Gamers who are complaining about a mapset being released for a 25 year old game (by one of the game's creators, no less...)

-Gamers who apparently can't read who think they're buying the WAD.

 

How many maps get released here? A lot? Yeah, a lot. How many get released by one of the original creators of the game? Pretty sure that isn't a whole lot! Maybe you should wait until you play the damn thing before you complain, eh?

 

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When your best credit is still "one of the guys who made Wolf3D and Doom," it's not very good for you.

 

Really? Do you know where you are right now? How many 25 year old games do you know that still have an active fanbase as big as ours? Those are two games that defined a genre so yeah, I'd say that's probably a huge milestone.

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On 12/9/2018 at 10:37 PM, Dark Pulse said:

Romero as a name that can sell a game, mostly due to the disaster of Daikatana and its infamous "Bitch" ad.

 

When your best credit is still "one of the guys who made Wolf3D and Doom," it's not very good for you.

 

 

Well, that still sounds better than being known as the "mastermind" behind Daikatana #obligatory_link_to_Something_Awful's_review.

 

IMO, if John had a sense of humour, he would reuse that ad's concept. Something like "John Romero is about to make you his bitch. This time for real".

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I for one am excited for this. It's not very often that you see one of the original developers of a game giving back to the community in the form of a pseudo-official expansion, let alone 25 years later.

 

That said, I am in two minds about the physical edition. Especially one with a price tag as big as $160+. I mean if you want to order it, by all means, don't let me stop you. Maybe it's just me being old-fashioned, but I find the practice of distributing mods in a paid-for fashion ethically questionable. Then again, the wad will be available for free if you simply wish to download it. And this isn't the first case of such a thing, not even in the Doom community - Final Doom began as a mere fan effort that later caught id's eye, and so they wanted to distribute it commercially. On the other hand, Romero did have a hand in Doom's development, which makes things less simple than that.

 

I don't know where I'm going with this. Pay no mind.

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"John Romero is about to make you bitch" would work given the reactions, too.

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6 minutes ago, Maes said:

if John had a sense of humour

he certainly has. but i don't think that he really want to remember dai-disaster. it wasn't only for money, remember? this was his Big Dream of The Best Game Ever. while it is long gone, and you know what you did wrong, and so on, i don't think that it is very fun to bring back memories of your failed Dream.

 

i myself still think that "bitch ad" was fun, but i can imagine why Romero may not want to step into that river again.

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14 hours ago, TheMightyHeracross said:

 

I've never liked how Deathkings is referred to as an IWAD. An IWAD, by definition, contains the data needed to run a complete game, and Deathkings is the only commercial expansion treated as an exception, which seems arbitrary to me. The Master Levels, for example, are not referred to as IWADs.

 

I'd assume hexdd.wad appears in the launcher menu for GZDoom out of convenience. It still loads hexen.wad automatically when selected.

Deathkings was sold as a stand-alone thing originally AFAIK, with its own separate executable (HEXENDK.EXE) which certainly elevates it to more than a mere mod. The Master Levels on the other hand were a bunch of single-level wads (except TEETH, with two levels) and though it had its own executable too, it was a mere frontend that served to launch the game. Then you had to quit the game to play another level. So it's really not a comparable situation.

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Yeah. Say what you want about Daikatana in the end, and how so much of it could've been done differently (and better), and I'm sure it taught Romero a few lessons itself.

 

But I'd never shame the man for daring to dream and having the balls to try for it.

 

As I'm sure plenty in this community are aware, it takes balls to take something you poured your heart and soul into, and give it to the merciless public, where it may be praised or it may be mocked and ridiculed. Daikatana had plenty of faults, but you can tell that everyone who worked on their game definitely gave it a try.

 

I think it ultimately boiled down to partially being due to the fact tech was changing so rapidly (a problem that also doomed Duke Nukem Forever until people who knew how to say "stop" got put in charge of it), partially due to Romero being a bit ahead of the curve (AI partners would be pretty easy now, or even 10 years ago - see Gears of War for a decent example), and partially due to him being a little blinded by "this is my dream game" - it makes it much harder for you to see all the warning signs that may come up, and your team as a whole is slightly disincentivized to call out problems they may feel the product has.

 

Of course, the development hell didn't help either, because anyone who deals with a publisher knows that you'd better get that game out on time, or you're going to court for breach of contract. Nowadays an indie dev doesn't have to worry about that - there's plenty of stores you can put your stuff onto. 20 years ago? That didn't exist. You'd better pair with a big publisher, or nobody is hearing of your game, not even if you made some of the hottest games around a scant five years beforehand.

 

Plus, well, Romero was young. He was what, in his late 20s at the time of Daikatana? Early 30s at oldest? He was still full of piss and vinegar, late 90s "attitude" was in full swing (let's not forget there's plenty of other examples - Fear Effect's ads that shamelessly sold the sex appeal of its female characters comes to mind), and the idea of being the best around wasn't exactly an idea that was ridiculous or preposterous. You literally helped make something that reshaped and redefined PC gaming. I think most of us would've had a little power trip ourselves at that age. Young and on top of the world? Who wouldn't have felt like everything they touched turned to gold?

 

On the whole, I can appreciate Daikatana more for what it is (as opposed to what it isn't) - an ambitious game that, if done differently, if it existed in more stable tech times, if it had a steadier hand that would guide it and have been able to make the tough calls without also being the creative mind behind it, could've been great. Because for all its flaws, you can tell that this is a team that TRIED, and tried damn hard, to make a game they thought would be the next big deal. But at the same time, its failure kind of made a pariah out of Romero - something I don't feel he deserved, but being the hype man and the face of it all also means that if the product fails, you're the one taking the fall.

 

For better or worse, he's taken it with grace, and kudos to him for not letting himself get too hung up on past mistakes and failures. Success in the end is, after all, learning to fail, and fail repeatedly, until you get it right. I'm pretty sure the Romero of today would be able to make Daikatana into a success.

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(Sorry for the double-post, can't edit my post to reply to this quote - having a non-WYSIWYG mode so I know what the BBCode would be in order to do so would help greatly!)

 

1 hour ago, R4L said:

Really? Do you know where you are right now? How many 25 year old games do you know that still have an active fanbase as big as ours? Those are two games that defined a genre so yeah, I'd say that's probably a huge milestone.

 

Of course. I've never knocked Romero for doing Doom. Ever. As was said elsewhere (and I agree), if John Carmack made Doom possible, Romero made Doom's presentation and attitude, and the other id guys (along with him and John Carmack) made that a reality. Only a fool would dare to say Romero's place in defining a genre (and PC gaming as we know it) is undeserved.

 

It's just unfortunate that his post-id work has never met that same level of success. Daikatana was ambitious but flawed, and since then he's never really had the chance to work on a "big" project like that again, instead finding modest successes helping out on other games and the occasional small title that became a success (Hyperspace Delivery Boy comes to mind, and in a way presages a lot of popular mobile games of today, but that too was a game a good 10-15 years ahead of its time - which really limited its audience).

 

So unfortunately for him, it somewhat forces him to rely on his accomplishments of decades past. Granted, those accomplishments still carry a huge amount of weight, but I personally hope the guy can get back some of his reputation and be appreciated for his contributions to the game industry BESIDES Keen/Wolf/Doom/Quake, not his flaws from 20 years ago.

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Expecting John Romero to magic up something better than DOOM is like expecting Notch to make a better Minecraft, or Alexey Pajtinov to make a better Tetris.

 

He would have to literally invent a new genre, and perfect it, in one fell swoop to top DOOM and that isn't going to happen in the hyper-critical Internet environment we have nowadays.

 

John isn't just some employee who played around with a map editor and made some neat maps; he wrote several games of his own in the Apple II days, he wrote the DOOM editor on NextStep, he contributed to DOOM in literally every way he was able to do so. He gets a pass from me for supposed 'riding the glory train'; unlike Pajitnov and Notch, he hasn't hidden away or gone strange in the head. John Romero is a gamer's gamer and he's a legend, now and forever even if he never comes out with anything new.

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So, John Romero is kind of our -misunderstood- Al Bundy?

 

fc7be4ee1b8619de11b6e26b43b239170a7bacee

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I'd say Carmack was the heart of Doom (core of the engine and push for simple and fast gameplay), but Romero was its soul (actual implementation of gameplay, as well as being the most social member of id Software, the one who spent the most time interacting with the community).

 

The problem with that metaphor is finding how to extend it to Adrian, Bobby, Dave, Kevin, Sandy, and Tom. All of them were critically responsible for making Doom into what it is and if you remove any of them from the story you'd have gotten a very different game.

 

 

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This is a slight detour topic-wise, but just wanted to chime in on something. I won't try to name a "most important id employee" with regards to Doom, but will say that Adrian is overlooked almost always. His art is absolutely crucial to our love for the game, and the new ground broken with photographic source material was an absolute revelation back then, especially in the hands of someone so skilled in traditional game art already. Subsequent games from other studios, especially in the 95-98 era when photo sources became extremely commonplace, almost always have art that looks way worse. Adrian is the difference. I revere John Carmack immensely but Adrian is probably my #1 hero from the original team.

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32 minutes ago, Maes said:

So, John Romero is kind of our -misunderstood- Al Bundy?

 

If there is one person on this whole forum who has no business accusing others of constantly referencing their past glories...

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30 minutes ago, ukiro said:

This is a slight detour topic-wise, but just wanted to chime in on something. I won't try to name a "most important id employee" with regards to Doom, but will say that Adrian is overlooked almost always.

 

Why don't you interview him then already??

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2 minutes ago, Linguica said:

 

Why don't you interview him then already??

 

He's the most elusive motherfucker on the planet. Bin Laden should have hit up Adrian for hiding spots.

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33 minutes ago, ukiro said:

I won't try to name a "most important id employee" with regards to Doom, but will say that Adrian is overlooked almost always. His art is absolutely crucial to our love for the game, and the new ground broken with photographic source material was an absolute revelation back then, especially in the hands of someone so skilled in traditional game art already. Subsequent games from other studios, especially in the 95-98 era when photo sources became extremely commonplace, almost always have art that looks way worse. Adrian is the difference.

 

Major agree on this one. Even compared to the (arguable) other standout example, Mortal Kombat, the Doom art holds up so much better and contributes such a distinct atmosphere to the games. With all the Doom imitators, it’s kinda surprising that no team ever seemed to quite hit that sweet spot between digitized photos and pixel art, even though plenty were clearly trying.

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After Doom's 25th Birthday, this is how we treat Romero?

 

Come on guys. He's obviously putting alot of time and work into this. Give him a chance. Don't just shut him off because "there are better maps out there" and "it wasn't just him who created Doom".

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Just now, TakenStew22 said:

After Doom's 25th Birthday, this is how we treat Romero?

 

Come on guys. He's obviously putting alot of time and work into this. Give him a chance. Don't just shut him off because "there are better maps out there" and "it wasn't just him who created Doom".

 

To be clear, my comment was in no way disparaging Romero (although someone else's might have). I was merely saying that to me personally, Adrian's contributions have had the greatest personal importance, to the extent they can even be ranked individually. This does not diminish the contributions from the rest of the team. And for the record, I am very happy that Romero takes continued interest in Doom.

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Why do we have to fight

 

I want the people who are skeptical of this mapset to apologize to the people who are excited right now.

 

And I want the people who are excited about this mapset to apologize to the people who are skeptical right now.

 

runs off while sobbing hysterically

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Of course, Romero could have made full megawad for Doom's 25th birthday, since he calls himself fan of game and he made only few maps for OG games. Doom community members makes full megawads for decades. But if Romero gives only 9 maps, LET IT BE. I personally don't think he is very talented on making maps nor we lost something special by receiving miniwad from him. I'm perfectly happy with community's wads and megawads.

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16 hours ago, JohnnyTheWolf said:

Out of curiosity, what would be your issue with E1M8b? I thought it was a fantastic improvement over the original E1M8 as well as a fitting climax.

 

E1M4b is the one I ended up not liking at all.

 

It doesn't really feel like the final map to me. I've played it a couple of times and every time I felt like I was playing a Computer Station replacement because that's the kind of vibe I get from it - a prelude to the final level. There are some really weird design decisions like the out-of-place looking damaging cracks or the unfair ambush at the start. The final room looked neat but the scale made no sense for a couple of Barons - I always imagined a twin Cyberdemon fight there - that wouldn't fit E1 but hey, it's not like this level fits as an E1 addition anyway.

 

Point is, it's not a bad level. But if somebody else released it you wouldn't see a single Cacoward nomination, let alone the award itself, let alone a physical one. Not to mention you wouldn't see people praising it as some sort of level design mastery. I was glad to see Romero releasing a DOOM level but come on, that doesn't mean doing such a thing deserves nothing but praise.

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I'd rather have nine great maps than 32 maps with nine great ideas, not to mention that it's actually really frickin' hard to make an entire 32 level set with every map having something new and interesting to contribute.

 

There's a reason this community has told wannabe mappers to not shoot for making a Megawad on your first map. Just make a good map.

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2 hours ago, Gez said:

The problem with that metaphor is finding how to extend it to Adrian, Bobby, Dave, Kevin, Sandy, and Tom. All of them were critically responsible for making Doom into what it is and if you remove any of them from the story you'd have gotten a very different game.

it is hard to imagine a healthy living creature without other internal organs. liver, for example, is not really visible outside, but remove it, and we all know what will happen. so now the problem is slightly easier: just assign various interal organ roles to the rest of the team. i wonder who will be ass -- it is important thing, but being ass is still not fun.

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1 hour ago, TakenStew22 said:

Come on guys. He's obviously putting alot of time and work into this. Give him a chance.

i see people who are ready to give him not only a chance, but even money, right now. so i don't think that we're treating Romero really wrong. ;-)

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47 minutes ago, ketmar said:

it is hard to imagine a healthy living creature without other internal organs. liver, for example, is not really visible outside, but remove it, and we all know what will happen. so now the problem is slightly easier: just assign various interal organ roles to the rest of the team. i wonder who will be ass -- it is important thing, but being ass is still not fun.

Steve Jobs, for nearly getting promotion for his NeXT machines, turning them down, and discovering what a mistake that was when it took off.

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I'm not a fan of the demonic box art but dang that floppy disk USB sure sounds attractive, and i'm very excited for the soundtrack disk i will probably never get.

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I already ordered the Beast Box on Dec 10 - curious whether I'll pay custom tax for this in Germany or not. If it's really shipped from Ireland, it shouldn't be an issue, I guess...

 

And after this:

2019 - 25th anniversary of Doom II episode

2021 - 25th anniversary of Quake episode

 

Life is good! Or at least: Keep dreaming! :P

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