SIGIL v1.21 - New Romero megawad [released!]

[dybbuk81]

Because the wad is still available and free for all?

[ketmar]

9 minutes ago, TheGamePhilosophe said:

In what sense would this NOT be profiting from the sale of a wad then?

because you're continuing to being stubborn (or stupid, choose for yourself), and keep ignoring merchandise and music. that is what people bought, not wad. wad is a free bonus to that. it was stated myriad times, both by Romero and by others here. but if you really think that Romero is trying to make money on Bethesda's IP, then go to court with it. or STFU.

[fraggle]

24 minutes ago, TheGamePhilosophe said:

  

In what sense would this NOT be profiting from the sale of a wad then?

What's wrong with profiting from the products of your labour?

 

Side note, at least one fan-made mod has been sold in exactly this way.

[ketmar]

p.s.: thinking of that, some little part of myself wants to see them suing Romero for using DooM IP in the form of Romero's severed head for making profits. after all, it is DooM asset!

 

not that i want Romero to go through this (it may be stupid, but still PITA), but just imagine how much fun we can make of it.

[dybbuk81]

"Excuse me, we have copyright ownership over YOUR head" lol. It'd be funny but I'd root for Romero still. Come on guys he helped make doom itself! lol

 

They set up these rules to begin with!

[TheGamePhilosophe]

8 minutes ago, fraggle said:

What's wrong with profiting from the products of your labour?

 

Side note, at least one fan-made mod has been sold in exactly this way.

 

I don't have any objection to artists being paid for their work. And believe it or not, I'm not out to get Romero. My question is just about the legality of selling Doom wads.

 

I think Action Doom is technically legal because it creates all new assets and/or doesn't require the iwad to run.

 

But if a wad reuses original assets/needs the iwad, then selling it is illegal.

 

Here's someone else's analysis from a list-serv back in the day about when it is legal and not legal to sell a wad:

 

"Anything that comes from the IWAD (doom1.wad, doom.wad, doom2.wad, heretic.wad or hexen.wad) is the property of id Software or Raven Software and may not be extracted or re-distributed. The only exception is the shareware IWAD file which may be distributed, but only in its original format (i.e. the whole shareware game). In other words, if you create a level which includes some textures or sounds that were extracted from the IWAD, it would be illegal to distribute it. Even modified textures would fall in this category, because the original artwork is copyrighted (if you are sued for copyright infringement with your modified textures, it would be up to the jury to decide if id's artwork has been copied or not, and I wouldn't rely on that if I were you).

 

[...]

 

In summary, it is perfectly legal to sell WAD files under some conditions. And while I'm opening Pandora's box, I should also add that it is perfectly legal to create WAD files for the shareware version of Doom or Heretic, or for the demo version of Hexen. It is also legal to distribute (or sell) a brand new IWAD file created from scratch, which would have the effect of transforming any shareware version into the equivalent of the registered game. But this would not be an easy task because you have to create new levels and new textures, but also new color palettes, new fonts, etc. This means more than a Total Conversion, which is already very complex."

[Kira]

2 minutes ago, TheGamePhilosophe said:

In other words, if you create a level which includes some textures or sounds that were extracted from the IWAD, it would be illegal to distribute it. Even modified textures would fall in this category, because the original artwork is copyrighted

Good news: SIGIL does none of that. You can remove "needs the iwad" from your checklist because it isn't a problem by this guy's analysis.

 

Just so we are clear: when you create a level that displays IWAD textures, these textures are referenced by name, not included with the PWAD. That would have been hell on more accounts than the legality of it otherwise.

[dybbuk81]

He's not charging for the wad though lol. He also helped write these rules to begin with and is following them. I mean, he IS John Romero who made a large chunk of the original game. It's HIS head on a stick at the end of its sequel.

 

He has no rights to it?!?

[Manuel-K]

It would be ridiculous if you could lose the rights of a depiction of your own head just because an edited image of it was included in a game.

[dybbuk81]

Plus I think when a new IWAD is made they still can't legally sell it without permission or giving id a cut (last I checked it went from $250,000 to $10,000 but that was YEARS ago, and probably even before they released its source) but games like Hacx and Harmony came out, which are both free now, just like Action Doom 2 is now. I know because I had to look this crap up when I myself wanted to sell a cd-rom of my wad idea I never made with cd tracks as music before MP3s were implemented into the source ports (or I didn't know they were in there yet). They even had a cease and desist order for Doom levels being remade in the Unreal engine. It's a shame too because that would have been free. I don't know what the legal reason was unless it was just that it was on a different engine. But this is any other wad that an author here makes. He could have probably worked out a deal to where he could charge for it since it was the real episode 5 for doom, but be thankful he didn't and is this cool of a guy.

[Dark Pulse]

32 minutes ago, dybbuk said:

"Excuse me, we have copyright ownership over YOUR head" lol. It'd be funny but I'd root for Romero still. Come on guys he helped make doom itself! lol

 

They set up these rules to begin with!

And that's the kicker - Romero definitely has ownership over all the other stuff.

• He worked out a deal with Buckethead for an exclusive track and a selection of other Buckethead tracks.
• He worked out a deal with Chris Lovell and bought the rights to a piece of artwork he made (and has one small adjustment to it).
• The Romero heads, as we've learned, are being hand-crafted by one guy, not to mention pretty much only Romero could ever profit off his own likeness without permission.
• The Coin also counts.
• The USB and T-Shirt might've taken some minor production.
• The SIGIL/Romero Games stickers are obviously fully his.

And that's what the package contains! The fact the WAD data happens to be on the USB drive and the (CD?) case is basically accessory to the fact.

 

23 minutes ago, TheGamePhilosophe said:

But if a wad reuses original assets/needs the iwad, then selling it is illegal.

 

Here's someone else's analysis from a list-serv back in the day about when it is legal and not legal to sell a wad:

 

"Anything that comes from the IWAD (doom1.wad, doom.wad, doom2.wad, heretic.wad or hexen.wad) is the property of id Software or Raven Software and may not be extracted or re-distributed. The only exception is the shareware IWAD file which may be distributed, but only in its original format (i.e. the whole shareware game). In other words, if you create a level which includes some textures or sounds that were extracted from the IWAD, it would be illegal to distribute it. Even modified textures would fall in this category, because the original artwork is copyrighted (if you are sued for copyright infringement with your modified textures, it would be up to the jury to decide if id's artwork has been copied or not, and I wouldn't rely on that if I were you).

Here's the lumps Romero's SIGIL will contain.

• E5M1-E5M9 (E3M1-E3M9 for compatability version)
• THINGS
• LINEDEFS
• SIDEDEFS
• VERTEXES
• SEGS
• SSECTORS
• REJECT
• BLOCKMAP
• Various music tracks

Notably missing: Any kinds of graphics and sounds. It's literally JUST level data. You won't find sprites, you won't find the sound effects, you won't find the wall patches or flats, you WILL find music because if you don't have the Buckethead WAD, @Jimmy has done some stuff.

 

This is why it needs DOOM.WAD to play in the first place - because it's missing all sorts of sound, graphical, and texture/patch lumps.

 

23 minutes ago, TheGamePhilosophe said:

And while I'm opening Pandora's box, I should also add that it is perfectly legal to create WAD files for the shareware version of Doom or Heretic, or for the demo version of Hexen.

It's actually not, that got disabled in 1.4 of the engine. Until then, many PWAD authors would add dead Lost Soul Things or non-Shareware items/monsters to their map to ensure it couldn't be played on Shareware. This could be exploited to give people the full game if they didn't do it. Virtually every(?) source port will also deny you being able to run PWADs if it detects a shareware IWAD.

 

That said, this is now somewhat made moot via FreeDoom.

 

23 minutes ago, TheGamePhilosophe said:

It is also legal to distribute (or sell) a brand new IWAD file created from scratch, which would have the effect of transforming any shareware version into the equivalent of the registered game. But this would not be an easy task because you have to create new levels and new textures, but also new color palettes, new fonts, etc. This means more than a Total Conversion, which is already very complex."

Technically true, because now that the engine has been GPLed, you can indeed make a new IWAD file and play a new game on the engine. You can't do that for the shareware versions of the games though. Back when this post was actually made though - a lot sketchier. Then again, he also vacillates between "You would be able to turn Shareware into Registered" in one breath, and "You would have to remake everything from scratch" in the next.

 

13 minutes ago, dybbuk said:

Plus I think when a new IWAD is made they still can't legally sell it without permission or giving id a cut (last I checked it went from $250,000 to $10,000 but that was YEARS ago, and probably even before they released its source) but games like Hacx and Harmony came out, which are both free now, just like Action Doom 2 is now.

The engine is GPL now; you're free to modify its source to accept new IWADs with no money going to id and you can legally sell it. GZDoom recently moved all the specific Doom/Heretic/Hexen stuff to a seperate PK3 precisely so they could say the engine is GPL and able to be used in that way.

 

Doom as an engine is way too old for id/Zenimax to give a shit for in the legal sense anymore. Basically just don't pirate the game and put the copyrighted sounds/graphics/etc. into your project - that's a no-no.

 

13 minutes ago, dybbuk said:

They even had a cease and desist order for Doom levels being remade in the Unreal engine. It's a shame too because that would have been free. I don't know what the legal reason was unless it was just that it was on a different engine.

If you're talking UDoom, that was because it literally was ripping and reusing the copyrighted graphics and sounds, and the 3D Abbs models. Putting the content of one game into another game is still technically copyright infringement; even if the modders were charging nothing, id still stood to lose money and so C&D'd it.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Dark Pulse

[yakfak]

everyone should be selling their levels packed with a hint book and CD full of clip-art tbh we're messing up by just sticking them in a big inventory

i want my worst mapping and compositional habits to be a tangible element in some collector's life

[dybbuk81]

I'd love to sell a soundtrack to a doom mod. My mapping skills are still pretty basic compared to the greats, but not as bad as they used to be. I'd go digital and have like 99 tracks for 2 bucks though but I'm just like that. I'm sure it'd be a little more costly if one had figures and custom usbs and stuff. Maybe doomworld community chest 4 or 5 (whatever is next I do not know as I type if 4 ever got made) could have a digital soundtrack on a flash drive with its titlepic etched on and some screenshots on a poster or something. or everyone who made a level can have a trading card with their level on the back and a bio. I'd probably buy some extras for some of these mods.

[LadyVader1138]

Can we just stop bitching about this? Nothing's been accomplished.

[ketmar]

6 minutes ago, LadyVader1138 said:

Can we just stop bitching about this?

there is nothing else to do right now -- we can't record SIGIL demos yet!

[LadyVader1138]

Just now, ketmar said:

there is nothing else to do right now -- we can't record SIGIL demos yet!

We have about 14,000,605 other WADs to play until then. I'm excited for it, but bitching about Romero doesn't make it arrive any quicker.

[Loud Silence]

On 5/9/2019 at 8:45 PM, Barefootstallion said:

Why hold up the download?

Just to mock people, who are smart enough to don't waste money on useless toys.

[dybbuk81]

I'm very eager for this.

[DefilerPhil47]

9 minutes ago, LadyVader1138 said:

We have about 14,000,605 other WADs to play until then. I'm excited for it, but bitching about Romero doesn't make it arrive any quicker.

 

Correct, and it makes us all look like whiny assholes. 

[dybbuk81]

Shut the thread back down! We aren't worthy!

[fraggle]

Yep, time to lock this again until there's another update.

[Linguica]

@Diabolución found the SIGIL soundtrack, which I guess now exists in the world: https://music.bucketheadpikes.com/album/sigil-soundtrack

[Nevander]

Holy damn the Poseidon tracks sounds amazing. Can't wait to hear those in E5M8. Fastpass is awsome too.

[BigBoy91]

Shit happens. I'm still excited to play! Romero may have made some bad decisions in his life, but he's a pretty cool dude overall. I know I'm not perfect.

[Linguica]

 

 

[Master O]

1 hour ago, Linguica said:

@Diabolución found the SIGIL soundtrack, which I guess now exists in the world: https://music.bucketheadpikes.com/album/sigil-soundtrack

 

Buckethead was smart to quickly get the soundtrack available online digitally.  

[zokum]

From facebook:

John Romero‎ - to  DOOM, 7 mins ·

Something evil this way comes. All the artifacts are now en route to Limited Run and packaging for SIGIL is imminent. Thanks, everyone, for your continued support.

 

[franckFRAG]

Yes, and on IG : 

 

[LadyVader1138]

1 hour ago, Linguica said:

 

 

A great announcement for my birthday!!!!

[nrofl]

1 minute ago, LadyVader1138 said:

birthday!!!!

Happy birthday!