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MsKaye

SIGIL - New Romero megawad [released!]

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12 hours ago, DANZA said:

I looove the MIDI version! It fits so much better with the rest of classic Doom than the mp3s. Well done Jimmy!

 

Sigil as a whole, feels just like a follow-up, albeit a slightly more detailed one, of Thy Flesh Consumed. I always play in HMP, so it has obvious challenge, but it's pretty doable.

 

In terms of "unfairness", remember the rest of Doom and Doom II also have gimmicky maps you have to reaconditionate yourself to, like The Chasm. It's not an unstoppable shooting marathon all the time. I did like it a lot, but I can see someone who only likes community mapsets or a more modern gameplay style won't.

 

Also, who opens a door in Doom and stands still in front of it, even for a fraction of a second? I'm talking about the Gmanlives review and the yellow baron door.

 

Waiting for a Doom II expansion announcement here, Romero!

 

 

Doom 2: Buckethead on Earth!

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8 minutes ago, Jayextee said:

 

This would actually involve a fundamental change in the way the engine works and not actually the maps, and not really feasible outside (possibly) a DeHackEd change to the death frame pointers.

Figured as much. Removing damage from those two small floor areas comes to mind, if possible (retaining textures of course).

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Posted (edited)

A good compromise would be putting Cybie (and the teleport destination) on a tiny island, like.

I received a similar complaint (and rightly so!) about one of my maps for The Becoming; teleport destinations in damaging sectors is just bad mapping form.

Edited by Jayextee : CLARITY IS BAE

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45 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

Sigil is easier than TFC at the beginning since there is no ridiculous levels like "Hell Beneath" or "Perfect Hatred" in it. Sigil's difficulty gradually rises and it only gets harder than TFC around map 5.

Yeah I think this is the one thing that makes pistol start and continuous very different for this assessment. Hell Beneath and Perfect Hatred are two of the most difficult E4 levels and they are at the beginning (and most players will be in bad shape when chaining them), so everyone is going to suffer a little.

SIGIL on the other hand has a better difficulty curve, so it will be manageable in continuous, whereas pistol starting will give you a few harder Hell Beneath and Perfect Hatred type of levels.

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55 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

 

I played UV continuous with saves about every 5 to 10 min. And I managed to reach map 5 on UV my first attempt at Ironman league (saveless run obviously).

My play style is cautious and turtlish.

 

Sigil is easier than TFC at the beginning since there is no ridiculous levels like "Hell Beneath" or "Perfect Hatred" in it. Sigil's difficulty gradually rises and it only gets harder than TFC around map 5.


Hell Beneath or Perfect Hatred aren't hard at all _when you know the secrets_ and proper route. This is the propleb of Sigil also, know the secrets and proper route - then it gets radically easier but if you play it in dark without knowing what to do, then it gets exhaustive quickly.

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29 minutes ago, eyelid said:


Hell Beneath or Perfect Hatred aren't hard at all _when you know the secrets_ and proper route. This is the propleb of Sigil also, know the secrets and proper route - then it gets radically easier but if you play it in dark without knowing what to do, then it gets exhaustive quickly.

Like any of the IWAD levels. Who would have guessed that knowing a level well makes it manageable? You can come up with slaughter examples if you want, we know, it's just not SIGIL's aim.

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2 minutes ago, Kira said:

Like any of the IWAD levels. Who would have guessed that knowing a level well makes it manageable? You can come up with slaughter examples if you want, we know, it's just not SIGIL's aim.

 

No, Just no. You don't really need to know secrets on any other IWAD levels, or if you find them, they're so ridiculously easy to find that it's along the normal gameplay like some sectors being normal level but marked with secret areas and giving lotsa goodies. E1-E3 just goes with a beer.

Like E1M1 - yep, normally you'll find your way to outside area to get all the goodies, but last remaining secret is hard to find but that's okay because you won't benefit much collecting it anyway. (That stupid lift-secret)

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Just now, eyelid said:

 

No, Just no. You don't really need to know secrets on any other IWAD levels, or if you find them, they're so ridiculously easy to find that it's along the normal gameplay like some sectors being normal level but marked with secret areas and giving lotsa goodies. E1-E3 just goes with a beer.

The point was no IWAD level is hard if you know them well. That doesn't make TFC or SIGIL any worse for being tricky without map knowledge.

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2 minutes ago, Kira said:

The point was no IWAD level is hard if you know them well. That doesn't make TFC or SIGIL any worse for being tricky without map knowledge.


But that point doesn't represent truth at all. Sorry. There's pleanty of weapons and health in other IWAD levels and you can do just fine without caring to search for secrets at all, or if you manage to find them, they're very easy to find like it's almost normal level progression, like most of the E2M1 - E2M2 secrets for example.

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Just now, eyelid said:


But that point doesn't represent truth at all. Sorry. There's pleanty of weapons and health in other IWAD levels and you can do just fine without caring to search for secrets at all, or if you manage to find them, they're very easy to find like it's almost normal level progression, like most of the E2M1 - E2M2 secrets for example.

Which truth? I never said other IWAD levels are hard without secrets, stop trying to funnel everything into that argument jfc. All I'm saying is that I won't dock points for a map being easier when you know it well.

Now about what you are monomaniacal about: yes I can see how that would rub someone the wrong way that you need to know secrets to dramatically increase your survival odds, but for what it's worth I'm abysmal at finding them and finished the wad just fine in UV and saveless.

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5 minutes ago, Kira said:

Which truth? I never said other IWAD levels are hard without secrets, stop trying to funnel everything into that argument jfc. All I'm saying is that I won't dock points for a map being easier when you know it well.

Now about what you are monomaniacal about: yes I can see how that would rub someone the wrong way that you need to know secrets to dramatically increase your survival odds, but for what it's worth I'm abysmal at finding them and finished the wad just fine in UV and saveless.


Then you're just lucky as cyberdemon maze finally should kill you, it took me 8 tries to avoid Cybie when some lucky ones got with first try, then I got bored and searched youtube-video for secrets to get some BFG and kill the cybie normally. However all the other places I got through at first try, even the last level as I didn't die at all at the places other people are complaining, but looks like youre some rarity of person to avoid those mistakes also and being so totally marginal guy.

"The point was no IWAD level is hard if you know them well"

But you said that IWAD level is hard if you don't know secrets (know it well) as you don't need to know levels at all in normal gameplay , just progress and collect health and ammo as you play, secrets are knowledge. You're trying to bend the meaning of words now.

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1 minute ago, eyelid said:

Then you're just lucky as cyberdemon maze finally should kill you, it took me 8 tries to avoid Cybie when some lucky ones got with first try, then I got bored and searched youtube-video for secrets to get some BFG and kill the cybie normally. However all the other places I got through at first try, even the last level.

I got it first try and without the BFG. Granted it was a grind luring it around the tower and doing hit and run. I could have skipped it entirely if I wasn't intent on killing it anyway.

 

2 minutes ago, eyelid said:

"The point was no IWAD level is hard if you know them well"

But you said that IWAD level is hard if you don't know secrets (know it well)

No, I said a level is easier when you know it well, not that a level is hard without knowing it well. Because a level can be easy when first playing it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's going to be easier anyway once you know it like the back of your hand. No clause is mutually exclusive here. Hopefully I'm being clear now.

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1 minute ago, Kira said:

I got it first try and without the BFG. Granted it was a grind luring it around the tower and doing hit and run. I could have skipped it entirely if I wasn't intent on killing it anyway.

 

No, I said a level is easier when you know it well, not that a level is hard without knowing it well. Because a level can be easy when first playing it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's going to be easier anyway once you know it like the back of your hand. No clause is mutually exclusive here. Hopefully I'm being clear now.


Sure, but that doesn't relate to point Hell Beneath and Perfect Hatred being devastatingly hard if you don't know what to do. Sure, theyre doable like Sigil, but exhaustive experience and not fun at all (like getting BFG and telefrag cybie changes the whole map completely to a walk in a park, UV-MAX demos made me replay whole episode when I saw those first time - didn't care to watch other level uv-max demos as they were ordinary), which relates to my actual fine point: Mr. Romero forgot to make it anything fun. We should have fun playing games on these modern days.

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Posted (edited)

@eyelid there are narrow passages around the labyrinth which the cyberdemon can't go into, so you can just walk around him.  Also once you get on top a wall he can't touch you at all and you can blast him with the plasmagun and whatever else you have from a safe position. Or just ignore him completely.

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1 minute ago, eyelid said:


Sure, but that doesn't relate to point Hell Beneath and Perfect Hatred being devastatingly hard if you don't know what to do.

They are very doable as long as you don't try to 100% them your first time, and I never do the BFG trick in E4M2 when playing it. There are other ways to get your kills if you really want them.

These maps are a problem in that they are front-loaded and the following maps are way easier. TFC has a wonky difficulty curve, I won't deny that. I think this is something SIGIL did way better here.

As for these being unfun and Romero forgetting how to make good maps. Well I disagree because I had a lot of fun with both TFC and SIGIL, but I won't try to change your opinion there of course. Just don't think you are holding the truth that you must hammer with "should" sentences until we magically agree. That won't happen.

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3 minutes ago, Rathori said:

@eyelid there are narrow passages around the labyrinth which cyberdemon can't go into, so you can just walk around him.  Also once you get on top a wall he can't touch you at all and you can blast him with the plasmagun and whatever else you have from a safe position. Or just ignore him completely.


I know it now and it's more satisfying to get BFG from secret and blast him out than any of your preferred way to handle it, but got tired after 8 tries trying to finding out what's the puzzle and "fun challenge according to DoomWorld" this time as I can't battle him straight like doom style but playing CyberDreams suddenly which was least loved jokeWAD anyway, but perhaps somebody loved these. Thankfully Romero left also possibility to do things properly if you know the level.

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5 minutes ago, Kira said:

They are very doable as long as you don't try to 100% them your first time, and I never do the BFG trick in E4M2 when playing it. There are other ways to get your kills if you really want them.

These maps are a problem in that they are front-loaded and the following maps are way easier. TFC has a wonky difficulty curve, I won't deny that. I think this is something SIGIL did way better here.

As for these being unfun and Romero forgetting how to make good maps. Well I disagree because I had a lot of fun with both TFC and SIGIL, but I won't try to change your opinion there of course. Just don't think you are holding the truth that you must hammer with "should" sentences until we magically agree. That won't happen.


It's not normaly way to play doom trying to get 100%, usually player enters area, kills everything he can see, then enter next area. If player can't kill, he will try to dodge or just pass it in the hope that he will reach those monsters later with better weapons or positions, so Hell Beneath is one of those "Why I sould even try to kill here anybody as I can just enter the Exit now as goal is to complete the game, not particular levels with 100% which doesn't give you any bonuses but waste of ammo and risking health" THat's how usually gameplay goes in ordinary play. UV-MAX shows how to get 100% if you're interested with all weird secrets and routes.

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23 hours ago, Diabolución said:

 

Interesting, so according to the /idgames maintainers this is not a megawad but an episode replacement, as expected. By the way, it seems that the greek mirror is dead...

 

 

https://pastebin.com/p2GMUSRE

 

Thank you for the changelog.

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1 hour ago, Nilex said:

 

  • preventing permanently walling-off half of E6 after a certain moment (unknowingly locks away two secrets).

I especially agree with this point.

 

I'd also add that I think the lifts in Baphomet's Demesne, which you take to get back on the bridge, are hurt floors when they shouldn't be.

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Posted (edited)

Immagine: this is the first of March, 1996. Master level for Doom 2 was released three months ago, Final Doom will come in three months. Ultimate Doom was a success. Then the news. Sigil, a new expansion pack for Doom is released. It takes three floppy disks. There is a new executable, Doom 1.96, with some limit removed, and an update for Doom95. Inside a card to register your expansion, and to request upgrade floppies in case you have an old version of Doom and no internet. 

-OR- You notice the same box with a CD logo. The expansion come in two cds. It contains all the patches up to Doom 1.96, and for the first time in Doom history, the music of the maps came directly from the redbook audio. And this means that a pretty '96 style FMV would play as an Intro and one for the Ending, all inside the CD.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Outside this fanfiction, reading from you it seems like this is like a lost release from those years! I hope to play this soon, need to finish some game before starting this :D. But from your comment, it seems quiete the stuff! :)

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29 minutes ago, Liberation said:

@eyelid Any chance of giving it a rest?

 

I'm more interested in other peoples views on Sigil, rather than whatever the fuck you're rambling on about.

 

Thank you.

 

this

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, eyelid said:

as I can't battle him straight like doom style

Did you not come up with an idea of clearing out perimeter from shotgunners, pinkies and imps and then battle him the TRVE™ way in the center area?

 

1 hour ago, mattjoes said:

I'd also add that I think the lifts in Baphomet's Demesne, which you take to get back on the bridge, are hurt floors when they shouldn't be. 

One (or more?) of them is just so small player's still standing on lava and takes damage as he should.

Edited by Beginner

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I think years of playing Doom in source ports is making people kind of miss the point about Sigil's difficulty.
Back in the 90s, before the novelty of playing fps with mouse & keyboard, we were playing using only the keyboard. Anyone who has played Doom back then knows that it was quite a challenge on Ultraviolence. It wasn't as easy to maneuver, and dealing with a bunch of monsters coming from different directions was actually tricky, because you would have to slowly turn around using the <- key just to change targets. Not to mention that the keys for strafing were separated from the rest of the movement input, making it physically harder to alternate between running back and forth and strafing. It was not this lightning fast killing spree that we now associate Doom with.
Mouse & keyboard controls complemented Doom's gameplay really well and probably contributed to the game's absurd longevity, but it also kinda broke the difficulty of the original maps. We are all too used to having an easy time blasting through the original episodes on Ultraviolence, and even most fan made maps.
Sigil is genius because it actually accounts for that. It's an updated Doom, meant to be challenging in 2019, the way it was in the 90s. A game is supposed to be challenging on its hardest difficulty, you know. And the way Romero did that, was by taking away the biggest advantage that the keyboard & mouse brought: movement. By forcing players into this claustrofobic fights, monsters like Cacodemons and Barons of Hell are again made into huge threats, as they're supposed to be, after all, they are the strongest enemies in the game, outside of the bosses.
There's so much thought put into the enemies placement in Sigil, it's impressive. It really shows the difference of a map being made by a professional game designer. Someone who knows exactly what to do to make a game difficult. I tip my hat to Romero, the more I think about Sigil, more I'm impressed by its evil ingenuity.

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Posted (edited)

It was originally possible to play doom with mouse and keyboard, it just wasn't promoted heavily, but all the demos were done with mouse and you were just left wondering how he can turn so quickly and accurately so first thing was to find out that how to set up the game properly and how's it supposed to be played.  There were't simple options in game to enable mlook it either for some weird reason wich perhaps dates back in Carmack,

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1 hour ago, Revenant100 said:

Has anyone made anything of the fact that, after defeating the loathsome Spiderdemon and hideous Cyberdemon lord, you discover the true final boss of Sigil in the last secret area of the episode: a tiny corner hiding a lone Zombieman?

 

 

Who could this mysterious man be, a figure so important that he's personally protected by the most powerful demons in Hell's army? Is he the true mastermind of the invasion? Baphomet incarnate? Samuel Hayden before he became a robot? A thing Romero accidentally placed and forgot to delete? The possibilities are endless.

That was the only secret I didn't find by myself since I couldn't think to go through a double sided wall there. And yeah the zombieman is probably some inside joke for Romero since there are Star Wars and Jedi Academy related secrets/parts in the 2016 maps he made.

Edited by pulkmees

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Posted (edited)

Just finished it. Jimmy's soundtrack is incredible and suits the game nicely. I really like Buckethead as well, but I don't think Buckethead's music is a good fit for Doom. Having played through it on Ultra Violence, I didn't find it too difficult, and the balance was quite good overall. I had a hard time finding many of the secrets, but even still, the resource placement was fine and I never felt that I was being starved. I had to pull up a walkthrough to find the secret level, but everything else I figured out and discovered on my own. I don't really see this as Cacoward worthy, but it was pretty much exactly what I was expecting, and I had a lot of fun with it. 

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Just now, Beginner said:

One (or more?) of them is just so small player's still standing on lava and takes damage as he should.

Ah,

 

800px-CyberdemonxSpidermastermind.png

 

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