SIGIL v1.21 - New Romero megawad [released!]

[Linguica]

Of course my post was a joke. Learn some media literacy!

[Dark Pulse]

1 hour ago, MetroidJunkie said:

When did Romero initially promise that people who paid for the box would also get first play privileges? Seems like, if you need the WAD to be delayed for everyone just to feel like it's worth the purchase, then that represents a failure on behalf of the physical things inside of the box. Like they don't want other people to have fun until they've had first dibs.

 

Also, the official site (bolded emphasis mine):

 

Quote

UPDATE April 7, 2019: Due to a delay in physical production of some of SIGIL's pieces, fan boxes will ship in the first week of May. The free megawad will be made available one week after fan boxes begin shipping so paying customers can play SIGIL first.

 

1 hour ago, MetroidJunkie said:

It also doesn't help that the professional company that he hired is having multiple issues, spanning months. To me, this represents incompetency.

 

It's not some friend Romero asked a favor of, it's an entire company and they're still unable to complete the shipping process that should have been finished around 3 months ago. You'd think they'd be more on the ball than this. If it was slated for Summer 2019 from the start, I could see that, but they had a while to plan this out and they still can't get it together.

You seem to not know how Limited Run works, so I will enlighten you.

1. Orders get placed for the product.
2. Once the number of orders are known, the actual orders to produce the product get made.
3. Products itself then get made, packaged, etc.
4. Finished products are then shipped to the orders.

Do you see where the catch is? Precisely - they have no idea how much stuff they will actually need. They can only guess, based on both pre-order period estimates, and revised estimates once the orders are underway, but they will only ever know exactly how many when the period ends.

 

Which means the people they contract out may not be able to actually produce according to the demand.

 

Which requires second-sourcing and/or moving production elsewhere to get it done in a timely manner.

 

Which means... delays.

 

There was obviously some logistical issues with the product. Shit happens. Things you can't anticipate happens. Sometimes if it can go wrong, it will.

 

That's not incompetence - that's business.

 

19 minutes ago, FrancisT18 said:

@pcorfWait...is this really officially not til July 24 now?...I thought @Linguica's post was just a tease and the real expectation (at the moment) based on the latest information is a ship between next week and then end of May.

As Linguica said, no, he was joking, and so was Corf. "Consult the oracle" and no real backlinking to sources should've made that clear. Corf's was also dripping with too much sarcasm to be real.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Dark Pulse

[baja blast rd.]

9 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

"Consult the oracle" and no real backlinking to sources should've made that clear. 

 

And also... the rest of the words.

[Rezo]

Can't freaking wait for this one.

[CyberDreams]

I agree that they definitely underestimated the demand for this. They probably weren't expecting a ton of people to drop $166 on a box of goodies...or maybe they were expecting that the whole time and this whole entire delay was planned out right from the very beginning by the evil Dr. John Romero himself MUH! HA! HA!...Or not ;) 

 

But seriously though, i wonder what in manufacturing actually caused the delay; if it's the fact that they couldn't actually produce the pieces in question (the head/coin/disk w/e) due to not having the required material or if it's because there are just too many of them to produce so they had to outsource or w/e. I guess we won't know the actual logistics of the situation but as long as it all gets sorted out in the end i guess it's all golden :)

[Barefootstallion]

4 hours ago, MetroidJunkie said:

would also get first play privileges? Seems like, if you need the WAD to be delayed for everyone just to feel like it's worth the purchase, then that represents a failure on behalf of the physical things inside of the box.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say that this is Romero's fault.  Pure and simple, no bones about it.  It is all his fault.

 

I mean, think about it.  Why did Romero need to have this released as a box set, too?  His public image.  He wants to be able to put autographs on things again.  He wants to be adored by his fans again.  He wants to stand up there under the spotlight and feel what it's like to be a rockstar again.  So he made a deal with a company that would put his name and his little product out there on a pretty box.  He has denied everyone access to a product that everyone else releases on this site for free, all because he wants his name on something again.

 

I have nothing but ire over this situation.  If Romero was interested in just contributing something to this community, then he would have just uploaded it like everyone else does.  But no, he has to be the John Romero.  And because of that, everyone who was anxious to maybe see what Romero made, gets to sit and wait until the company he contracted gets its sh*t together.

 

Terrible.

[Dark Pulse]

16 minutes ago, Barefootstallion said:

 

If I had to guess, I'd say that this is Romero's fault.  Pure and simple, no bones about it.  It is all his fault.

 

I mean, think about it.  Why did Romero need to have this released as a box set, too?  His public image.  He wants to be able to put autographs on things again.  He wants to be adored by his fans again.  He wants to stand up there under the spotlight and feel what it's like to be a rockstar again.  So he made a deal with a company that would put his name and his little product out there on a pretty box.  He has denied everyone access to a product that everyone else releases on this site for free, all because he wants his name on something again.

 

I have nothing but ire over this situation.  If Romero was interested in just contributing something to this community, then he would have just uploaded it like everyone else does.  But no, he has to be the John Romero.  And because of that, everyone who was anxious to maybe see what Romero made, gets to sit and wait until the company he contracted gets its sh*t together.

 

Terrible.

If Romero cared about his image as much as you seem to think he does, considering how the Doom fanbase is, all he would've literally needed to do is release the WAD with no fanfare and no warning, and the community would've ate it up and praised him as the second coming of Cyberdemon Jesus. Physical goodies are for a commemoration and honor of Doom's 25th anniversary - Romero is simply the man who made it, and also happens to have some distinction because he 1) made levels for the original game and 2) helped make the actual game itself.

 

Make no mistake, this is partially about ego - Romero is well aware of his rep in this community - but at the same time, to decry going all-out for a pay-for physical edition commemoration-style box as being purely a selfish and egotistical decision? I think your philosophy professors would like to have a word with you, since literally 99% of the content is free - all that isn't is the physical goodies and the Buckethead music WAD, which are optional. The people who didn't want to give him money still get a free WAD and nearly all the same content as the pay-for tribe; that's usually not the sort of decision that is driven by ego. For excellent examples of that, see companies like Activision, Electronic Arts, King Digital Entertainment... who probably would've happily released this in pay-for form only. (King would've one-upped the other two and released it on a level-by-level basis, for only $4.99 each map!)

 

Also, blaming him for problems beyond his control is pretty fucking shitty. That's like saying it's the power company's fault that your power went out when some drunk smashes into a power pole - "If they wouldn't have put it there, I'd have power still." And frankly, yes, it's fair that the people who paid money for it get slightly early access. That's what happens when you contribute to a project; hardly any different from backing a Kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign.

 

We get you think John Romero is apparently a piece of shit, man. Can we stick with discussion on SIGIL and not re-litigate for probably the millionth time on these boards whether Romero made you his bitch vs. being a bitch?

[Barefootstallion]

Then, Dark Pulse, why is the free-download option being held up until after the boxset is shipped?

 

Simple.

 

The company that was contracted to do it, fears that no one will buy the boxset if they're able to get the free content first.

 

Sure, sell all of the commemorative stuff you want.  I am sure there'd be tons of people more than willing to buy it.  I have some of my own.  (I'm still and always on the hunt for bobbleheads by the way - truck driver you know :D ).  The fact that the upload has been tied in with the release of the boxset is what I have a problem with.  It was completely unnecessary.  And that is all I'm saying.

[LadyVader1138]

3 minutes ago, Barefootstallion said:

Then, Dark Pulse, why is the free-download option being held up until after the boxset is shipped?

 

Simple.

 

The company that was contracted to do it, fears that no one will buy the boxset if they're able to get the free content first.

 

Sure, sell all of the commemorative stuff you want.  I am sure there'd be tons of people more than willing to buy it.  I have some of my own.  (I'm still and always on the hunt for bobbleheads by the way - truck driver you know :D ).  The fact that the upload has been tied in with the release of the boxset is what I have a problem with.  It was completely unnecessary.  And that is all I'm saying.

I would hold it up too, but not as a financial reason. I would feel really bad for those who have spent money on it not to get it a little early compared to those who will get it for free.
I do want to say that's me. I can't speak for Romero.

[Barefootstallion]

2 minutes ago, LadyVader1138 said:

I would hold it up too, but not as a financial reason. I would feel really bad for those who have spent money on it not to get it a little early compared to those who will get it for free.
I do want to say that's me. I can't speak for Romero.

 

Okay.  Sure.  But if I had to guess, I would say that the people who have paid for the boxset, did so for the commemorative materials and not for the wad - they knowing that the wad was going to be free here, anyway.

 

This whole thing stinks of a contract deal.  It isn't because a company feels for a customer base.  Trust me, when the almighty Dollar becomes involved, sentiment is just about the furthest thing from a company's mind.

[Dark Pulse]

13 minutes ago, Barefootstallion said:

Then, Dark Pulse, why is the free-download option being held up until after the boxset is shipped?

 

Simple.

 

The company that was contracted to do it, fears that no one will buy the boxset if they're able to get the free content first.

 

Sure, sell all of the commemorative stuff you want.  I am sure there'd be tons of people more than willing to buy it.  I have some of my own.  (I'm still and always on the hunt for bobbleheads by the way - truck driver you know :D ).  The fact that the upload has been tied in with the release of the boxset is what I have a problem with.  It was completely unnecessary.  And that is all I'm saying.

Wrong, for one key thing - there is no more "people won't buy the box set." The box sets have already been bought.

 

There was a limited preorder period, from December 10th-24th. If you did not order a box then, you're not likely to ever get one, outside of eBay or people reselling their boxes. There's a mailing list where people MIGHT be able to get a box (cancellations, etc.), but the orders are already done and dust. You literally can't go and buy a SIGIL box anymore.

 

The people who are getting boxes, simply put, paid for this months ago - as I said, back in December. Yes, they deserve to get to play it before anyone else, they actually put money towards Sigil's success. Romero announced it in December, after working on it on and off for two years, but it only got finished this past March. The first delay, from February to April, was on him. This second delay, from April to this month, is on the production of the goodies.

 

It was also made quite clear from the very beginning that the WAD itself was going to be free - paying for the box simply got you some extra feelies and bonus stuff (emphasis mine):

Quote

SIGIL™ is a free megawad created by John Romero for the original 1993 DOOM®. It contains nine single-player and nine deathmatch levels. The free megawad will be released in mid- February 2019 and requires players own the original 1993 registered version of DOOM® in order to play. SIGIL™ is the spiritual successor to the fourth episode of DOOM®, and picks up where the original left off.

In addition to the free megawad, SIGIL also releases in two limited edition fan boxes created by Limited Run Games. The fan boxes feature music by metal guitar legend Buckethead, including a custom song written expressly for SIGIL, and cover art by Christopher Lovell whose iconic, detailed work has been featured on numerous metal albums. (Note: The free megawad does not ship with Buckethead’s music or Christopher Lovell’s art.)

Three times it was stated the WAD would be free. Anyone who thought that this was about selling boxes needs their eyes checked, because all you have to do if you want to play the levels is, well, nothing. You will get them eventually, shortly after the people who put up actual money and thus wanted something to commemorate the project by.

 

It's very simple. If you wanted the nice art, the Buckethead soundtrack, etc. then yes you would have to pay money. If you just wanted to play the levels... you didn't have to pay a dime. You just had to wait it out.

 

You tell me where the hell in that statement you see something designed to sell boxes and fuck over the people who want the free WAD? Because of delays? Everyone's waiting, even us, and even once boxes do begin to ship, those who paid for it get a whopping one week advance before everyone else gets to play it - and that's from when the "first boxes" ship, so by the time it gets to many of the backers, it might only be a few days before everyone else gets it.

[Barefootstallion]

It still doesn't make much sense to me.  Why hold up the download?  Just so people who paid can play first?  That right there just makes my brow scrunch downwards.  It just doesn't make any sense.

 

But I digress.  I realize I am only throwing fuel at an argument at this point - which was never my intention.  I'm just trying to figure this all out.  So in the end, I hope everyone gets their content soon and that it is as kickass as everybody hopes.  I'll probably play it, too, at some point.

[Dark Pulse]

Well, if you paid money for a product, you're saying you wouldn't feel slighted in the least if other people get to play it for free before you get your copy?

[MeatSafeMurderer]

22 hours ago, MetroidJunkie said:

To be honest, I don't see the point of intentionally delaying the WAD just because the boxes are having problems getting shipped out. Delaying the release hurts the people who bought into it, too.

Speaking as someone who purchased it I couldn't agree more. When the first delay hit I let it slide...but when there was a second delay that LRG didn't even bother to email me about I started to get mildly annoyed. At this point I paid up close to 5 months ago, I was initially told I'd have it nearly 3 months ago, I've not heard anything direct from LRG on the issue for nearly 3 months and have had to seek out information on delays on a product I already paid for on my own and (unsurprisingly) I still don't have. I don't blame Romero for this at all, the delays and lack of communication to paying customers is entirely the fault of LRG. I couldn't give a rats anus about playing it before other people; I bought it to support Romero and get a nice collectors item. I'd rather the WAD was simply released now so that we can all enjoy it. Insisting on delaying the cake for everyone else because I can't have my extra icing yet just seems wholly selfish and self-defeating to me. Of course I can only speak for myself.

[Barefootstallion]

1 minute ago, Dark Pulse said:

Well, if you paid money for a product, you're saying you wouldn't feel slighted in the least if other people get to play it for free before you get your copy?

 

No, man, I wouldn't have.  That may just be me, but just think about it.  If you knew the wad was going to eventually be free, anyway, then why would you lay out money for the boxset?

 

For the commemorative extras that you got.  Getting those was what prompted the layout of money.  After that, who was to care when the rest of the community got to play the wad?  I certainly wouldn't.  The merchandise was what I had my eyes set on. 

[Dark Pulse]

7 minutes ago, Barefootstallion said:

No, man, I wouldn't have.  That may just be me, but just think about it.  If you knew the wad was going to eventually be free, anyway, then why would you lay out money for the boxset?

 

For the commemorative extras that you got.  Getting those was what prompted the layout of money.  After that, who was to care when the rest of the community got to play the wad?  I certainly wouldn't.  The merchandise was what I had my eyes set on. 

Exactly. But the ones who paid for that should get that little extra time to have their slice of cake first, since yes, they are the ones that directly contributed to its success and to the (pretty likely) probability that there will eventually be a second free WAD for everyone else to enjoy.

 

Frankly, the waiting is affecting everyone. Had it come out in February, I doubt we'd be having this conversation. But it was delayed twice - which has made more people aware that, yes, the people who pay do get the WAD a little bit earlier than the rest of the internet, which was likely the plan all along.

 

After all, money does talk, and very simply, Limited Run can't afford a whole bunch of cancellations because the physical release got put out after the main WAD content. So yes, in this case, to protect Limited Run, there probably is that enforcement so as to not undercut them. It did cost them money to make the stuff, and they do need to turn a profit.

 

I don't think one extra week is exactly unreasonable. I could see being up in arms if it was like a month, but let's be blunt, someone will upload the stuff on some torrent website and the people who will really want to play it before it's put up officially will find a way to get it before the free release somehow.

[D4NUK1]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ChoosingBeggars/

[Barefootstallion]

19 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

Exactly. But the ones who paid for that should get that little extra time to have their slice of cake first, since yes, they are the ones that directly contributed to its success and to the (pretty likely) probability that there will eventually be a second free WAD for everyone else to enjoy.

 

Frankly, the waiting is affecting everyone. Had it come out in February, I doubt we'd be having this conversation. But it was delayed twice - which has made more people aware that, yes, the people who pay do get the WAD a little bit earlier than the rest of the internet, which was likely the plan all along.

 

After all, money does talk, and very simply, Limited Run can't afford a whole bunch of cancellations because the physical release got put out after the main WAD content. So yes, in this case, to protect Limited Run, there probably is that enforcement so as to not undercut them. It did cost them money to make the stuff, and they do need to turn a profit.

 

I don't think one extra week is exactly unreasonable. I could see being up in arms if it was like a month, but let's be blunt, someone will upload the crap on some torrent website and the people who will really want to play it before it's put up officially will find a way to get it before the free release somehow.

 

That isn't entirely unreasonable.  If one lays out cash for the success of something, it is only fair to expect to be recognized in some fashion for it.  I've laid out money for a couple of kickstarters, myself.  In my case, it was just plenty enough to be able to see my name in the kickstarter's credits.  But then I hadn't been expecting anything else, either.  If I'd have been expecting merchandise, such as in it being promised by the publisher, then I would become a little annoyed if there were what I had come to think of as unreasonable delays.  But I still contend, that the people who bought the boxset, bought it because they wanted the commemorative materials.  Bragging rights.  Some serious collectibles.  That is why the boxset was bought.  Getting to play the wad early would only be icing on the cake.

 

In answer to any possibility of me maybe griping about any delays in the wad's free version, let me please disabuse everyone of any such notion right now.  I've made no bones about nor attempted to conceal the fact that I dislike John Romero.  Meaning that I am not waiting, fists clenched in mad anticipation for the wad to become available.  To me, his wad is no different from any other wad released by other people in this community.  I may at some point download it.  But that will be only to see whether or not it's really any good.  And that may be months after it's released before I ever do.

 

Either way, like I said, I am not seeking to lay fuel for argument.  This has all ever just been my opinion.  Everyone is welcome, and I even urge everyone, to take it with a grain of salt.  It was never my intention to impune anyone's admiration for Romero.  I don't like him, but that's just me. 

[Kira]

55 minutes ago, Barefootstallion said:

Then, Dark Pulse, why is the free-download option being held up until after the boxset is shipped?

 

Simple.

 

The company that was contracted to do it, fears that no one will buy the boxset if they're able to get the free content first.

No offense, but if you are going to post assertive walls of texts like that without checking such a simple information, I'm not going to read your diarrhea further. If you are trolling you are just reaching here.

[SamuelNMEvander]

Seems like I'm going to have to play the free wad first anyway. Never had an order arrive to me in a week. And the order is being sent from the states this time. 

[Egg Boy]

Really excited for this, seriously, my hype is through the roof. Between this and the new Tyler record, this month is gonna be great!

 

[Job]

31 minutes ago, Barefootstallion said:

 

That isn't entirely unreasonable.  If one lays out cash for the success of something, it is only fair to expect to be recognized in some fashion for it.  I've laid out money for a couple of kickstarters, myself.  In my case, it was just plenty enough to be able to see my name in the kickstarter's credits.  But then I hadn't been expecting anything else, either.  If I'd have been expecting merchandise, such as in it being promised by the publisher, then I would become a little annoyed if there were what I had come to think of as unreasonable delays.  But I still contend, that the people who bought the boxset, bought it because they wanted the commemorative materials.  Bragging rights.  Some serious collectibles.  That is why the boxset was bought.  Getting to play the wad early would only be icing on the cake.

 

In answer to any possibility of me maybe griping about any delays in the wad's free version, let me please disabuse everyone of any such notion right now.  I've made no bones about nor attempted to conceal the fact that I dislike John Romero.  Meaning that I am not waiting, fists clenched in mad anticipation for the wad to become available.  To me, his wad is no different from any other wad released by other people in this community.  I may at some point download it.  But that will be only to see whether or not it's really any good.  And that may be months after it's released before I ever do.

 

Either way, like I said, I am not seeking to lay fuel for argument.  This has all ever just been my opinion.  Everyone is welcome, and I even urge everyone, to take it with a grain of salt.  It was never my intention to impune anyone's admiration for Romero.  I don't like him, but that's just me. 

I hope John Romero makes a boatload of money off of Sigil. It doesn't hurt my feelings that he's using his legacy to monetize something we as a community do for free. As one of the last active members of id that developed Doom, his maps still capture a je ne sais quoi the rest of us struggle to distill. I'm not a Kickstarter backer-type, so if he makes more map sets, especially for Doom 2, I'm all about it. 

[dew]

1 hour ago, Barefootstallion said:

It still doesn't make much sense to me.

The real question here is, do shoelaces or wiping ass make sense to you? Because at this point, I have doubts.

[DoomedFox]

If romero didn't care much about pepole he would have just released the wad months ago and make pepole who bought the boxed release wait. 

 

Limited run games is the reason these delays happen, its out of Johns control aside from his megawad. But being john cares about the community (as he supplied some stuff in the way of unreleased sprites\new levels.etc) he is gonna wait until the boxed copies ship so both free and paid pepole can enjoy it in unison. 

[dmslr]

Even Blood's remaster is out. That makes feel both happy and sad.

[Linguica]

 

 

 

[anotak]

making shit is hard and im glad romero is making shit

[dybbuk81]

Methinks if there is no longer an argument this thread will stay active! Here's to not arguing!

[TheGamePhilosophe]

Of course, everyone could have the wad right now. But people who paid for the box have essentially paid for the right to "be first" and lord it over everybody else. So much for the 90s dream of the digital gift economy, I suppose.

 

I'm curious though: Does Romero have the legal right to profit from the sale of wads? I'm assuming he doesn't and the sigil box is his way of doing an end run around that legal restriction. Seems like grounds for a lawsuit.

[dybbuk81]

Also I hope this doesn't ruin his chances at another cacoward : )