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MsKaye

SIGIL v1.21 - New Romero megawad [released!]

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5 hours ago, Epyo said:

Watching Icarus's reaction video to Sigil, it's really just nonstop complaining about how hard each room was for him.  The thing he complained about most is how each exit room has a Baron in it, but in each case he deliberately makes sure to avoid taking the exit until he kills the Baron...for no apparent reason!  He says he is not playing for 100% kills, 20 minutes into the video, as he talks about skipping a cyberdemon.

Well, I've played it through in HMP with everything at 100%, not skipping anything, using GZDoom 3.8.0 Legacy with the Doom with Sprinkles mod which is very similar to Smooth Doom and doesn't change the gameplay, and I got the same opinion as Icarus.

 

I will try a different port and UV later, but that certainly won't change my opinion that there is too much 'bullshit' in those maps and too much repetition in gameplay, making stuff annoying instead of memorable.

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I don't understand the repetition complaint.

 

In fact, I'd say it has a good amount of variety to it, especially considering the limited bestiary.

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No, it is really nowhere near the original Doom. It's way too much of the same stuff over and over. Even KDitD, with it's much larger limitations (in bestiary and weaponry), was more fun than that.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Ajora said:

I'm a little disappointed with how many reviews I'm encountering that are complaining about the difficulty. This isn't Sunlust. The difficulty's fine. 

I mean most people coming out of the woods to try the new semi-official episode aren't necessarily familiar with the average hardcore wad. From their own perspective, I can understand why they are complaining about the type (emphasis on type) of difficulty SIGIL offers. If it was released in the 90's it would have enjoyed a Plutonia kind of reputation I think, albeit for different specific reasons.


I did find it "difficult" as far as Doom 1 related content goes though. Then again my whole experience has been in saveless pistol start conditions. It is of course way, way more doable than some of the community's output.

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1 hour ago, eyelid said:

It was originally possible to play doom with mouse and keyboard, it just wasn't promoted heavily, but all the demos were done with mouse and you were just left wondering how he can turn so quickly and accurately so first thing was to find out that how to set up the game properly and how's it supposed to be played.  There were't simple options in game to enable mlook it either for some weird reason wich perhaps dates back in Carmack,

 

If it is how it was supposed to be played, don't you think it would be the default settings?
Now, my memoery may be failing me, but I think that if you watch those old videos of Romero playtesting the levels, he was using only the keyboard. Maybe by the time they recorded the demos they had realised that the game would play better using the mouse to aim, but I don't think the game was designed with that kind of control scheme in mind.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, WalterAB said:

 

If it is how it was supposed to be played, don't you think it would be the default settings?
Now, my memoery may be failing me, but I think that if you watch those old videos of Romero playtesting the levels, he was using only the keyboard. Maybe by the time they recorded the demos they had realised that the game would play better using the mouse to aim, but I don't think the game was designed with that kind of control scheme in mind.


It's hard to say at this point when there were setup.exe giving you possibility to set up controls in very minimastlic and uninformative menu, that how's the game was supposed to be played defaultly. I didn't have a PC when doom came out, so when I finally got my precious Cyrix powered (!) comp and all, I thought that my friends knew already which is best way to play it so I played also by keyboard back in 1995. Turns out my supposed to be my friends were half brained (or braindead) people who didn't have an idea about it at all (or pretty much anything heh..), and mystery of demos still remained. I think it usually went that way that friend trust friend who trusted friend that this was supposed to be played by keyboard, and games magazine reviewers didn't mention mouse settings at all, only topped that and made the whole plot very thick.

Perhaps keyboard, perhaps not. all we know that majority of people played by keyboard. I think Romero and Carmack would know it better.

 

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Posted (edited)

I also finished Sigil for the first time. I chose UV, yeah !!

I played it continiously with all current health and ammo status

 

E5M1

38/38 kills / 4/4 secrets

 

E5M2

41/42 kills / 3/4 secrets -> had to leave that Cyberdemon alone, not enough ammo left...

 

E5M3

69/69 kills, 3/4 secrets 

 

E5M4

79/83 kills, 3/5 secrets....

 

E5M5

148/148 kills, 2/2 secrets -> exit with 1% health and 16 % armor.....OUCH!!!!

 

E5M6

75/75 kills, 2/3 secrets....possibly the toughest start I ever had to manage, but I did it after several save spots

 

E5M7

176/178 kills,  4/6 secrets... left with 11% health and 24% armor---- another bad result 

 

E5M8

53/54 kills, 2/4 secrets

one of the easiest maps, I simply chainsawed most lost souls through the fence to save ammo

Spiderdemon was stuck in the corridor and couldn't move that well. Easy target.

Cyberdemon wasn't a challenge at all...give him 4 BFG blasts and he's a goner XD

 

Conclusion: 

I got wasted a lot of times and I missed several secrets and the secret exit so far. For the first walkthrough still not bad, I guess. 

It was difficult, especially the start of E5M6, I made it tougher as it is but I chewed myself through.

Barons of Hell and Cacodemons became a nuisance at certain points. Narrow ledges and those sinking platforms into lava freaked me out, 

but that's all part of Romeros psychological war. XD

 

I'm sure, if you get better used to maps, secrets and enemy layouts it won't be that difficult anymore. It's totally fine and I can't complain about that.

I like it very much and I'm glad John released it. Most developers do give a shit about us players. Who else would pick up such an old game and release some add ons, even for free ? He has my sympathy and I hope he gets in the mood to create something more in the future.  

 

I give it a 9 out of 10 points! I was a bit disappointed about E5M8. I like that map somehow but it's too easy...

I know there are many bad texture alignments.--- but I could laugh about that. I do such crap myself every now and then and it doesn't spoil my fun ..LOL

 

Jimmy's midi is really awesome as well. 

 

 

Edited by 4everDoomed

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rathori said:

 

The fact that the option to use mouse was there in vanilla DOOM is precisely what proves that it was designed with this option in mind. And it didn't take people too long to figure out that the mouse was superior, which quickly resulted in Deathmatch being dominated by mouse players. We even had a special name for those stubborn few who insisted on playing with keyboard: "tractor drivers", because it took them forever to turn. They also lost most of the time and whined that it was because mouse users were playing the game wrong.

 

DOOM was THE game that gave birth to the standard modern FPS controls, even though it was born in community, not in predefined default configuration. It probably took a while longer (and a few more games) to get to WASD and mouse look by default, but that's where it all started.


Even Wolfenstein 3D already had mouse and keyboard support. Doom's big innovation control-wise was the dedicated buttons for strafing instead of needing to hold down the right mouse button.

 

That said I think the original three episodes were likely designed not just with keyboard-only in mind (there were plenty of people with DOS PCs in 1993 that didn't even have a mouse), but also with the fact in mind that this was still a fairly new genre for everyone.

Edited by Gunstar Green

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I love this wad was one monster I didn’t have the ammo to finish in the secret level. I’m on E5M7 playing UV and going to finish and start over to try to 100% it.

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3 hours ago, Kira said:

I mean most people coming out of the woods to try the new semi-official episode aren't necessarily familiar with the average hardcore wad. From their own perspective, I can understand why they are complaining about the type (emphasis on type) of difficulty SIGIL offers. If it was released in the 90's it would have enjoyed a Plutonia kind of reputation I think, albeit for different specific reasons.

 

I've primarily played the original Doom episodes + episode 4, and very rarely have played the average hardcore WAD or anything made by the community (but I have plans to!). I've only played Final Doom occasionally online, and only for a few minutes max. 

 

I found Sigil to be a natural progression of difficulty as an episode 5, for the most part, especially as Thy Flesh Consumed had three levels that were quite difficult. 

 

I almost feel like some of these reviewers have forgotten how hard Doom can be... 

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Question

 

Trying to run Sigil in Choc DooM and this error keeps coming up very shortly after starting the game. Anyone have any idea what could cause this? 

 

This is Delta Touch app, Choc DooM 3.0 and no mods.

 

The other engines in the app (GZDoom, Retro DooM & Pr+) run fine, with/without mods.

 

I have reached out to @beloko but I am sure he is busy with life and more importantly, SIGIL! Lol

Screenshot_2019-06-02-20-37-17.png

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Welfare Prodigy said:

Question

 

Trying to run Sigil in Choc DooM and this error keeps coming up very shortly after starting the game. Anyone have any idea what could cause this? 

 

This is Delta Touch app, Choc DooM 3.0 and no mods.

 

The other engines in the app (GZDoom, Retro DooM & Pr+) run fine, with/without mods.

 

I have reached out to @beloko but I am sure he is busy with life and more importantly, SIGIL! Lol

Screenshot_2019-06-02-20-37-17.png

 

https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Visplane_overflow

 

Also, instead of Chocolate Doom, use its sibling sourceport "Crispy Doom" which removes the visplane limit.

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you were literally told earlier in this thread that chocolate doom does not support SIGIL.

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12 minutes ago, Welfare Prodigy said:

Question

 

Trying to run Sigil in Choc DooM and this error keeps coming up very shortly after starting the game. Anyone have any idea what could cause this? 

 

As I already said you can't because Chocolate Doom is not limit removing and can only have so many visplanes.

 

Use this instead: 

 

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I'm no speed runner by any means, but beating E5M8 in 30 seconds is a lot of fun and has made me appreciate the level so much more.  I can't wait to see what actual speed runners do!

 

NEwNJQs.png

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43 minutes ago, SaladBadger said:

you were literally told earlier in this thread that chocolate doom does not support SIGIL.

You are correct, I did ask (I didn't remember asking here, just emailing the app dev to ask him) Sorry I can't recall every thread I commented on. As much as I love playing DooM and for the 20+ years have (mainly via console PSX DooM, Xbox 360) I am not familiar as you and most here about the different engines that can be used and limitations, if any, they may hold. I am not used to using them nor am I an expert. The only thing I know is that I love and want to play DooM. Apologies for the ignorance of the double posting and apparent annoyance it has caused you. @beloko's 1st app (D-Touch) that came out years ago has opened me up to things you have been a part of for a long time. I'm just here like everyone else, ask Qs, experience something new and be able to talk to others who share this common love that has captivated us for over 25 years.

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Ultra-Violence is brutal for sure, however I'm playing with no saves which means pistol start if I die. People seem to forget that Ultra-Violence is supposed to be HARD. They feel they're wimps if they don't play on UV then cry about it when it's too hard. Sometimes it requires a little thinking through trial and error to circumvent the difficulty. For example, in E5M6 you can skip the Baron trap if you avoid the Green Armor. Then they can't block the tunnel. 

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I remember catching a stream of Romero designing E5M3 months back and he said he believes in Pistol Start / UV, so that's how I initially played Sigil to get the most out of it (I usually do continuous weapons). I'm glad I did and had a great time with it. I ran through it on UV again with a continuous loadout and beat it a little over an hour casually the second time through. Even on continuous, ammo management is pretty tricky if you only know of a few secrets.

 

My only main gripe with this episode is E5M4's crusher section. A shame since I like this map otherwise and the branching paths, lots of detail in this map too, but yeah that crusher spikes part is kind of annoying.

 

E5M7 is probably my favorite map overall, great details and feels a bit different than Romero's norm.

 

For E5M8, I think Romero should have put some of those eyeball switches around the Cyberdemon so you can't just run past him like a joke haha.

 

Also don't forget to check out E5M9 if you miss it, pretty cool secret map.

 

Both soundtracks are awesome. I like the more atmospheric tracks Buckethead did a lot actually, reminds me of the Doom 64/PSX OST. But yeah even the midi soundtrack here is great too.

 

Overall, I had a blast with Sigil. Been loving Doom since it released and have played dozens of megawads over the years, it really isn't that hard for me to fall back on a vanilla approach and appreciate what Romero was going for here. Good stuff.

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On 5/28/2019 at 1:57 PM, pulkmees said:

You must have been extra patient in E5M4 then. Or gotten lucky with rng. Or somehow you knew exactly what to expect before something surprising happened.

Did you also 100% it or was it more a passthrough run?

 

I got screwed at the start a couple times, but it was mostly a thing of patience for the rest of the level, although luck probably helped as well. I was killing everything I could find, and trying to find as many secrets as possible, but not with a real intention of 100%ing the levels.

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6 hours ago, Rathori said:

 

The fact that the option to use mouse was there in vanilla DOOM is precisely what proves that it was designed with this option in mind. And it didn't take people too long to figure out that the mouse was superior, which quickly resulted in Deathmatch being dominated by mouse players. We even had a special name for those stubborn few who insisted on playing with keyboard: "tractor drivers", because it took them forever to turn. They also lost most of the time and whined that it was because mouse users were playing the game wrong.

 

DOOM was THE game that gave birth to the standard modern FPS controls, even though it was born in community, not in predefined default configuration. It probably took a while longer (and a few more games) to get to WASD and mouse look by default, but that's where it all started.

 

Let's not forget that the manual even encourages you to use the mouse. 

 

I know someone who stubbornly insists that playing Doom without the mouse is the only true way to play Doom. He also insists upon playing Doom with DOSBox and has stated that John Romero is the only person who was ever any good at developing Doom maps. 

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The fact that video exists of Romero using a mouse while Doom was still being made is enough proof for me that mouse was intended.

Obviously not the ONLY way, but it was definitely intentional.

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1 hour ago, Ajora said:

I know someone who stubbornly insists that playing Doom without the mouse is the only true way to play Doom. He also insists upon playing Doom with DOSBox

Pffft...what a casual. A real purist would play it on a 486.

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2 minutes ago, MeatSafeMurderer said:

Pffft...what a casual. A real purist would play it on a 486.

With pc speaker, soundblaster or gravis ?

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Quake also still has the stupid default controls btw., even Quake 2 does. You need to rebind controls yourself if you want to use mouse+keyboard properly.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I've been playing Sigil and I have a few things to say so far.

Firstly, I love my box set.  The USB Floppy is a nice touch, though I had to "solve" that puzzle like it was the Lament Configuration.  (Not very hard in either case, I think that Hellraiser box has been solved by dropping it on the floor a few times at this point.)  Sadly, the label on my particular pseudoflop wasn't aligned correctly, but oh well.

The Buckethead soundtrack is nice, but I'm very disappointed in the so called "audio disc" that came with the set.  It's literally just a bunch of MP3s stuffed on a disc.  There's not really any excuse for this.  There's only 11 songs on the whole thing, they easily could have been done in redbook, and would have been higher quality.  As it stands, I can't play this in any of my CD players.  I don't have a single one that recognizes an MP3 CD, since literally every CD player I have ever owned is actually a game console adapter as a CD player.  It honestly feels like a mistake happened somewhere.  I mean, with the space on that disc those could have at LEAST been FLAC files.  That was my original idea after all, just take the audio disk and bloat up a new WAD with FLAC rips of the tracks for higher audio quality.

I also was kind of hoping for a manual blurb, but that's ok.  The back of the box provides all the story detail needed.

As for the game itself, it threw me into hell right from the start with all those baddies.  I was ok with that, because well we've all played Thy Flesh Consumed.  The difficulty curve is FAR better in this one than that episode.  I also really appreciated how he handled introducing the "eye switch" in the first level.  That's some grade A level design.  Trap me in a room and force me to learn the concept in its easiest form, the act of which lets me out.  That's done in Zelda, that's done in Metroid, and it's done here.  And of course, like any good level design, each one takes a basic new idea and itterates on it over and over again in more complicated and difficult forms.  I really loved the follow through on the eye switches (I got Ocarina of Time vibes from it actually).  These levels are merciless though, and need quite a lot of fast reactions.  I'm not going to pretend I didn't save scum my way through a few parts, but I tried to keep my saves limited to doorways and let each fight speak for itself from beginning to end.  As others have said, ammo is scarce if you're going for 100% kills, and I'm not really a big fan of that when I'm going for that completion score.

The secrets are interesting.  A few were pretty tricky to find, but none of them approached how complicated a lot of the later Doom 2 stages got with them.  The "optimize for memory" part of me got a little frustrated at doubling up multiplayer sections as hidden zones inside the 9 levels.  I'd rather have seen them split up just from that perspective, but realistically its not going to slow down anything close to a modern PC so really it's just my own problem with it.

No PAR times?  Ah c'mon Romero!  We ran into that probem with Thy Flesh Consumed and it took until the XBox versions to get something official we could get in the source ports.  I hope 1.2 adds some in.  Listing a PAR time goal is a great way to kickstart a speedrunning scene for the pack after all, though it's Doom and it's Romero, so that may not really be needed these days.

Minor nitpick: Replacing the title screen and music is a little presumptuous, since "Doom" isn't a part of that new screen at all.  I think ideally every time it pans through the credit screens it should alternate between old title screen/music and the new.  I'm working on getting together a small mod to do just that, and because I'm insane I'm going to add in support for all the other official Doom engine games so they rotate through their various title screens too.  Well, unless I get bored and do something else.  I am pretty easily distracted.

These are just assorted thoughts.  All in all I'm actually very happy with the episode.  It's not quite a megawad, maybe a kilowad?  But, it's free, so go on and get it!

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2 hours ago, wheresthebeef said:

The fact that video exists of Romero using a mouse while Doom was still being made is enough proof for me that mouse was intended.

Obviously not the ONLY way, but it was definitely intentional.


I can't imagine playing Thy Flesh Consumed's first two levels with default Doom controls.  That's the real Perfect Hatred.

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Started my version 1.1 playthrough on UV as opposed to HMP, which I used for my first time through. I'm loving the additional challenge! There have been quite a few times so far where I've been starved of ammo and health, which certainly isn't a bad thing if done right. Sigil, in my opinion, does this well. Being forced to play carefully and planning out my actions ahead of time is an enjoyable experience. I've also been using the MIDI soundtrack this time, which I'm very fond of. Buckethead's music is great, don't get me wrong, but the MIDIs definitely feel more "Doom" to me. 

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