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StevenC21

Does Anyone else think that TNT has godawful level design?

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I'm not talking about the visual issues (such as lava and ground being at the same height level and adjacent to each other, which I personally think looks like ass, although your view may differ). I mean gameplay.

 

I'm currently on MAP25, and the last few levels have been utter garbage. So many invisible walls. With no explanation, rhyme, or reason for them. I've consistently had to look on the wiki for instructions on where they are, since, as false walls work, they look exactly like all other walls and have no indication whatsoever they are fake. I have no problem with this for secrets, mind you. But required items like MAP25's red skull key? This is horrible design.

 

What do you all think? Am I just off my rocker?

 

Furthermore, I have no clue how this game was beat before the internet had all these solutions and speedruns and such. If I had purchased this game, I would still be stuck on MAP20. Honestly, I wish I had never got TNT. Its just... very, very bad.

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Nah, there are some great maps in TNT, such as Dead Zone, but otherwise the IWAD is just of average quality, never been a fan of it. 

 

It does help that PSX Doom has only the best maps in it, and combined with the visual and audio enhancements of the port this version of the maps really shines. 

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You're in the bad third of TNT. It's pretty much all garbage after map20 with an ok map here or there depending on what you're into.

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I am nostalgic for the first half of TNT but there’s no less than 10 total stinkers. Definitely the weakest iwad. Can’t snub the excellent new midis though.

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MAP22 of Evilution was so scrappy and that first door at the starting area is not even recessed. Compare it to the first level of Icarus which was by the same author and what a huge difference that was.

Screenshot_Doom_20181214_184644.png

Edited by pcorf

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5 minutes ago, pcorf said:

MAP22 of Evilution was so scrappy and that first door at the starting area is not even recessed. Compare it to the first level of Icarus which was by the same author and what a huge difference that was.

Atleast it has kickass music.

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TNT, Master Levels (and for that matter, episode 4 of UDoom) are all flawed by the same reason: they are mappacks of multiple authors, and not episodes with coherent style by 1 author or 2. It's unavoidable with mappacks that the final result will be uneven by both difficulty and style, and the lack of progression clearly hurt the continuous gameplay of it as well. You can just have an episode which randomly installs maps from your folder, and you might get the same result. Well, Master Levels didn't even try to be an episode.

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4 hours ago, Agent6 said:

It does help that PSX Doom has only the best maps in it, and combined with the visual and audio enhancements of the port this version of the maps really shines. 

Same dude!!!

That version took the somewhat best maps and improved the overall feel. Take Ballistyx for example...that animated firesky (which is the trademark of that version in hell maps) made the map better than it is plus the colored lighting and stuff and the music also helped a lot.

 

Returning to topic, I didn't had problems regarding directions. It can take quite a while to get accostumed to where you go and do some backtrack here and there (which it has a lot btw) and that's the weak point of the whole mapset. Gameplay is good overall and...Last Call (map 30) has that gimmick of memorizing the pattern of doing the right path (yeah sure I can savespam like crazy lol), which I saw in few maps actually.

 

Basically, TNT is a mixed bag of pros and cons that players might like it or not. Me? It's a bit better than Doom 2 for sure but not as much as Plutonia.

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4 hours ago, StevenC21 said:

I have no clue how this game was beat before the internet had all these solutions and speedruns and such.

 

Presumably the same way other games were beat in the 1990s. But for Doom levels specifically, even back then some editors had visual modes and search functions, in case you got completely stuck. (If you didn't have internet, it might take a few trips to the computer shop to find an app you liked.)

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2 hours ago, Nancsi said:

TNT, Master Levels (and for that matter, episode 4 of UDoom) are all flawed by the same reason: they are mappacks of multiple authors, and not episodes with coherent style by 1 author or 2. It's unavoidable with mappacks that the final result will be uneven by both difficulty and style, and the lack of progression clearly hurt the continuous gameplay of it as well. You can just have an episode which randomly installs maps from your folder, and you might get the same result. Well, Master Levels didn't even try to be an episode.

You probably shouldn't treat master Levels as whole pack and play the maps grouped up by mappers.

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Yes, TNT is rubbish. There are only 3 truly great maps (03, 09 and 28), a few good-ish ones (10, 31, 32 and 17) and then the rest are either mediocre or pure shite. 

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43 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

Same dude!!!

That version took the somewhat best maps and improved the overall feel. Take Ballistyx for example...that animated firesky (which is the trademark of that version in hell maps) made the map better than it is plus the colored lighting and stuff and the music also helped a lot.

 

Returning to topic, I didn't had problems regarding directions. It can take quite a while to get accostumed to where you go and do some backtrack here and there (which it has a lot btw) and that's the weak point of the whole mapset. Gameplay is good overall and...Last Call (map 30) has that gimmick of memorizing the pattern of doing the right path (yeah sure I can savespam like crazy lol), which I saw in few maps actually.

 

Basically, TNT is a mixed bag of pros and cons that players might like it or not. Me? It's a bit better than Doom 2 for sure but not as much as Plutonia.

 

Even damn Crater looks better. I never liked what TeamTNT did with the lightning in the outdoor areas, but PSX Doom fixed just that, on top of enhancing the overall atmosphere. 

 

But, PC TNT better than PC Doom 2? IMO, not in a million years, as incoherent as Doom 2 might feel at various points. 

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I've come to enjoy TNT very much, especially in recent years. In the 90s/00s I didn't like it much, but part of that probably was due to getting stuck a lot more frequently than I had before playing Doom. Mill, for example, was on my excrement list for a long time (incidentally, I had failed at The Spirit World for a long time too). But now that I know the levels a lot better, I really enjoy more of them than the other iwads, especially the stretch from about Map 09-20.

 

But things are different these days. I didn't really know about/have access to pwads, etc. back then, so I just played the iwads over and over. TNT and Ultimate have grown on me the most over the years, but that opportunity doesn't really exist so many years later with so many other things to play.

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6 hours ago, StevenC21 said:

What do you all think? Am I just off my rocker?

 

Nah. I played through it sometime last year and remember coming to similar conclusion, although for me it was the first half of the wad was enjoyable, the second half not so much. I'll have to run through it again soon and see if my thoughts on it have changed.

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1 hour ago, leodoom85 said:

Gameplay is good overall and...Last Call (map 30) has that gimmick of memorizing the pattern of doing the right path (yeah sure I can savespam like crazy lol)

 

Well in map 30, u are supposed to use automap to tell which platform was safe.

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11 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

No, you're not because automap doesn't show anything in vanilla. You are supposed to memorize the torch color sequence at the beginning.

^^^^^^

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15 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

No, you're not because automap doesn't show anything in vanilla. You are supposed to memorize the torch color sequence at the beginning.

 

I could've sworn there was something the automap showed that hinted which platforms were safe. But u guys have put me in doubt now. Maybe it was because of some source port but it has been so long that I am not sure.

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I thought most of the maps were okay, but some of them were forgettable.

 

Atleast it had an original soundtrack unlike Plutonia. Thank god for the Plutonia midi pack.

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1 minute ago, ReaperAA said:

 

I could've sworn there was something the automap showed that hinted which platforms were safe. But u guys have put me in doubt now. Maybe it was because of some source port but it has been so long that I am not sure.

Yes, I think the source ports show you which of the platforms are safe.

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Just now, TakenStew22 said:

Yes, I think the source ports show you which of the platforms are safe.

Yes, it shows the safe path. 

Safer areas aren't shown with activator lines.

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I'll argue that TNT before map 21 is actually good, because I enjoyed most of the maps up to that point, despite some of their flaws, but after that it really implodes on itself. The only good map in the last third I can think of is Heck, and really only because it's basically three Doom II maps glued together.

Part of the problem with TNT is it has cool ideas, but doesn't execute them very well.

I'll gladly argue that the first two thirds of TNT are just below Doom II in how much I like it, but the last third really kills it.

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7 hours ago, Agent6 said:

It does help that PSX Doom has only the best maps in it, and combined with the visual and audio enhancements of the port this version of the maps really shines. 

HEY.

 

I picked two TNT levels to do for the Master Edition project that weren't in the original game, and I'm working quite hard on making them look pretty fucking nice, thank you. Of course, those are also apparently from the part of the WAD most people like, so... your mileage may vary.

 

Hanger might be hit-and-miss quality-wise (though I quite like it), but Open Season is definitely underrated, AND it had some pretty damn haunting music. Music so good I did my own little remaster of it. (Yeah, I did that for Hanger's track as well.)

 

Probably in the next two weeks or so I'll put up some screenshots of PSX Open Season. Technically it's "ready," but I need time away from it to still see if it "feels" good after a bit of time away from it - my acid test for if it's ready or not.

Edited by Dark Pulse

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