kristus Posted December 31, 2018 This has been nagging my brain for quite some years now and I've wanted to bring this up for discussion though just never felt that I wanted to deal with the possible backlash. But after a few beers this new years eve I feel ready because beer makes me stupid like that. But I really hate the term "mapper". And with the risk of sounding pretentious I will (try to) explain why. I never understood why people would refer to themselves as mappers rather than level designers. To me the term mapper is not synonymous with level design. I think it's derogatory. To me, it makes as much sense as calling a surgeon a stabber. Yes it's a part of the practice. But only the mechanical part. It doesn't take into account the actual skill of design. So where I am going with it, is that calling yourself a mapper, rather than a level designer. Is making light of the effort planning and achievements that goes into making a map. Mapping to me is just mindlessly recreating a layout, or slapping stuff together without any thought of design or purpose. Did someone else design the map you made? If no, then don't call yourself the mapper. Call yourself the designer. 23 Share this post Link to post
RonLivingston Posted December 31, 2018 Mapping takes much effort, even if you might come up with ideas, I have much in common which makes it sometimes simple, even if mappers or designers hate the term mapper then sometimes people like it, it may be the thing, which is already the thing since im already developing heretic maps too 4 Share this post Link to post
Doom_Dude Posted December 31, 2018 I prefer level designer myself as I think it's more fitting. Mapper sounds more like a term for somebody into cartography. 5 Share this post Link to post
iori Posted December 31, 2018 I agree, but am guilty of using the term. It's easier to use, rolls off the tongue; maybe we can call it a colloquialism or slang. Level Design is a more professional sounding term and should be used when releasing projects or on a resume if that's a thing. 7 Share this post Link to post
TheMightyHeracross Posted December 31, 2018 (edited) Huh? The term "mapper" is derogatory now? When did this happen? I always just thought "mapper" and "level designer" were just synonymous, and I can't understand how anyone could possibly take that as an insult. A "mapper" simply makes maps, and if someone is a "good mapper" it is implied that they are skilled at level design, because that is mandatory for a map to be enjoyable. Level design is a crucial component of "mapping," so the term "mapper" absolutely takes the "skill of level design" into account. That is not applicable to the "surgeon vs stabber" analogy, because the acts of "stabbing" and "performing surgery" are completely unrelated. Saying that a surgeon is just a "stabber" that puts sharp things into people for a living is obviously dismissive of their skill, but if I were to call someone like Dragonfly or skillsaw a "mapper" there is no part of that statement which is insulting their skills. 34 Share this post Link to post
SOSU Posted December 31, 2018 Mapper is shorter so it's more popular :) While the term level designer is more correct since there is more to designing levels than just layout i preffer mapper because it sounds funnier xD 23 Share this post Link to post
snapshot Posted December 31, 2018 I should stop using that term, I have a feeling I pissed off quite a few people unintentionally but I can't. Level designer is kinda mouthful. 1 Share this post Link to post
wolfmcbeard Posted December 31, 2018 My first go with making custom maps was exactly that, making maps in Halo 3's forge mode, nothing ever gained a huge following though some people played customs on my maps made in H5 Guardians only one ever had a player base as it was for multi only, so I always saw mapper as the proper term since before I ever heard of Doom Builder. That said, I can see the OP's point, but I will probably still use the term even for myself as that's been what I've known it as for years. 2 Share this post Link to post
kristus Posted December 31, 2018 6 minutes ago, TheMightyHeracross said: Huh? The term "mapper" is derogatory now? When did this happen? I always just thought "mapper" and "level designer" were just synonymous, and I can't understand how anyone could possibly take that as an insult. There's a reason I wrote the first post from a personal perspective, since I realize that this is not something that everyone is likely to agree with me on. So, no the term isn't derogatory all of a sudden. It is derogatory from my perspective. Do with that as you will. As for your second point, can't you understand or won't you understand? I did explain my position in the post. As I said I don't expect everyone to agree with me, because I can understand that not everyone has the same perspective on the matter as I do and I do get where people who use the term "mapper" are coming from. Where as I who cringe everytime I see it used felt I wanted to discuss the matter. I get the feeling you got triggered by the post I made, which is a large part why it took me quite a few years before I even bothered to make it in the first place. But is the fact that I hate the use of a word something that should affect you personally? 5 minutes ago, SOSU said: Mapper is shorter so it's more popular :) While the term level designer is more correct since there is more to designing levels than just layout i preffer mapper because it sounds funnier xD I get that, language has a tendency to get truncated in casual conversation, but I feel that something gets lost at times there in that translation. So when that starts to affect the way people talk in a more official capacity I get a bit of concern growing in the back of my mind. And I don't see people using the term level designer in official capacity anywhere. But instead opt for using the more colloquial term mapper. And I hate that. 2 minutes ago, tempdecal.wad said: I should stop using that term, I have a feeling I pissed off quite a few people unintentionally but I can't. Level designer is kinda mouthful. I would certainly appreciate that, though I don't think most people got a much of a pet peeve with it as I do. So as far as your concern of offending quite a few people goes, I doubt it. But regardless. I think mapper is diminishing the work people do, and by using the more proper term level designer I'd like to elevate the kind of work that goes into developing a map for a game like Doom. 0 Share this post Link to post
leodoom85 Posted December 31, 2018 Short answer: I don't mind or care. Long answer: Yes it sounds correct for level designer but....why the hate for a term that seems easier to recognize? It seems so trivial at this point of time...I mean, I can deal with the term and whistle like nothing happened. It's just overthinking. 7 Share this post Link to post
Bauul Posted December 31, 2018 (edited) It sounds like OP is putting additional meaning on "mapper" that the rest of us aren't. To me it's just a synonym with "level designer", no better and no worse. "Level designer" is probably the more correct term and "mapper" is more colloquial, but given all of this a casual hobby then it doesn't really matter which you use IMO. If I'm talking to people who don't know about Doom mapping I use the term "level designer" because that is the more official term and is easier to understand to the uninitiated. But "mapper" is easier and quicker to write for us in the community and everyone understands what it means. To me it doesn't have any special connotations or different meaning to "level designer". OP saying "Mapping to me is just mindlessly recreating a layout, or slapping stuff together without any thought of design or purpose." just isn't an association I have. I'd define "mapper" as "Slang: Colloquial term for level designer". 14 Share this post Link to post
Linguica Posted December 31, 2018 So what I get from this thread seems to be: * A "level designer" is a person who comes up with the design for a level * A "mapper" is the person who creates the actual geometry of that level in some sort of editor and make the actual file that can be used in a game, but is not really exercising creative skill in the process * Being a "designer" is good and being a "mapper" is bad and it's insulting to be called as much 15 Share this post Link to post
Jimmy Posted December 31, 2018 Put "level designer" on a CV or resume, not "mapper". That's... really all I can think of that distinguishes the two. 8 Share this post Link to post
kristus Posted December 31, 2018 Well, to a degree yes. I used to work as a mechanic many years ago now. I was proud of the work I did. I could make things work again. But it was menial work. I just made the things into what they once were. An engineer designed and constructed those things I worked to get back into working order before me. It's a matter of different levels. When I started out making maps. I certainly were mostly just slapping stuff together, looking at what would work. 0 Share this post Link to post
leodoom85 Posted December 31, 2018 Level designer=Architect Mapper=Builder idk man... 4 Share this post Link to post
Xaser Posted December 31, 2018 I've always thought of "mapper" as Doom community slang -- in general game-design circles, the term used is indeed "level designer". Is there anywhere else "mapper" sees use? Quake/Build communities, maybe? Or is it strictly a local colloquial? 5 Share this post Link to post
Revenant100 Posted December 31, 2018 I prefer the most accurate term "linedeffer". 32 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted December 31, 2018 (edited) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mapper Quote mapper (plural mappers) One who produces a map. (video games) A designer of levels for video games. (computing, electronics) A software or hardware component that performs a mapping. So it seems fine to me. I understand it can seem reductive, but it's not, and people as far as I know do not use it with the intent of reducing the level design merit of those they qualify thus. 3 minutes ago, Revenant100 said: I prefer the most accurate term "linedeffer". I prefer "vertexer" myself. 7 Share this post Link to post
baja blast rd. Posted December 31, 2018 The original post crafter brings up an interesting point -- will think on it. 8 Share this post Link to post
joepallai Posted December 31, 2018 This was something that was bugging me when I came back, but eventually just let it go as I became guilty of it myself. I definitely see where @kristus are coming from on this though. 0 Share this post Link to post
therektafire Posted December 31, 2018 24 minutes ago, Xaser said: I've always thought of "mapper" as Doom community slang -- in general game-design circles, the term used is indeed "level designer". Is there anywhere else "mapper" sees use? Quake/Build communities, maybe? Or is it strictly a local colloquial? I think the Source community (hl1/2 TF2 etc) uses mapper as well. Not sure if its confined to Idtech derived games and engines or not though, maybe its more a retro game dev in general term 0 Share this post Link to post
therektafire Posted December 31, 2018 Also, to be fair, Doom levels are explicitly labeled "maps". So it makes sense for someone who makes doom maps at the very least to be called a "map designer" or "mapper" for short 3 Share this post Link to post
seed Posted December 31, 2018 11 minutes ago, therektafire said: I think the Source community (hl1/2 TF2 etc) uses mapper as well. You've just thrown a GoldSrc game there. They usually refer to what they're doing as "mapping" (probably like everyone else?), but always as "level designers" to themselves judging by what I've seen over the years. 0 Share this post Link to post
Job Posted December 31, 2018 I agree with most of this. However, "developer" is more appropriate than "designer" in regard to encompassing the entire level creation process. If you really wanted to split hairs, that is. And, yes, there's a difference. 0 Share this post Link to post
Cruduxy Pegg Posted December 31, 2018 This is pretty close to what is art and what isn't.. Just write whatever term you want in your wad's credit section. People will use mapper online because it is the shorter word. 2 Share this post Link to post
[McD] James Posted December 31, 2018 Pertaining to first-person shooters, I think the term is perfectly fine. 0 Share this post Link to post
kristus Posted December 31, 2018 15 minutes ago, Job said: I agree with most of this. However, "developer" is more appropriate than "designer" in regard to encompassing the entire level creation process. If you really wanted to split hairs, that is. And, yes, there's a difference. I agree and disagree. Developer is a perfect umbrella term that encompass anyone working on anything. But as with most umbrella terms go, they are very unspecific and ultimately useless at expressing roles. 0 Share this post Link to post
TheMightyHeracross Posted December 31, 2018 1 hour ago, kristus said: As for your second point, can't you understand or won't you understand? I did explain my position in the post. As I said I don't expect everyone to agree with me, because I can understand that not everyone has the same perspective on the matter as I do and I do get where people who use the term "mapper" are coming from. Where as I who cringe everytime I see it used felt I wanted to discuss the matter. I get the feeling you got triggered by the post I made, which is a large part why it took me quite a few years before I even bothered to make it in the first place. But is the fact that I hate the use of a word something that should affect you personally? It doesn't affect me personally at all, and I'd say I'm just confused far more than "triggered." It's just a bit bizarre to me, as I've always understood the terms to have the exact same meaning. "Level designer" is certainly more formal- what you would "put on your resume," as Jimmy put it- but I've personally never seen that term used in a derogatory manner before now. Like, have there been instances where you've actually seen someone use the term "mapper" to put someone else down for their lack of skills? Still, I'll keep the thread in mind and go along with it from now on even if I don't exactly understand it. 2 Share this post Link to post
pavera Posted December 31, 2018 I'm perfectly happy being a mapper. It's a term of endearment, not derogatory. I don't see the problem. 6 Share this post Link to post