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TheNoob_Gamer

Completing Doom without losing any health

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Posted (edited)

Recently I've been interested in making a Doom playthrough without taking any single hit from enemies/environment, and of course without CHEATING (except scripted sequences/death exits)

I went on Google and did some research, but I haven't found anyone complete this kind of run. Is it really impossible to do and should I do this kind of playthrough?

Edited by TheNoob_Gamer

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Scripted sequences? In classic Doom?

 

It's possible but you need RNGsus to be with you whenever you're facing hitscanners. Doom II MAP02 in particular is very annoying for that. You can still do it through save-scumming or by making a tool-assisted run; but without such help I think you'll tear your hair out.

 

I believe the demo category for this is "reality".

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Posted (edited)

When I say scripted sequences, I meant 'death exits' (like Scythe MAP10),crushers,etc. But then again these rarely appear in original Doom, so oops. Sorry for bad writing :)

And by the way, I'm starting this kind of demo from Doom 1 E1. I know Doom 2 is very hard to do so.

Edited by TheNoob_Gamer : Something is not right in my original reply.

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It might be I guess, but you'll have to watch out for the notorious hitscanners.

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This feat would be very impressive and I imagine incredibly difficult to pull off on any difficulty setting. Good luck to you though.

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Posted (edited)

Playing through either Doom(1) or Doom 2 entirely, without taking damage ever (sans D-Exits), is as close to a statistical impossibility as you can possibly get. It's up there with winning the lottery and getting struck by lightning twice and surviving.

Never mind that in some maps you're just bound to take damage from a hurt floor as part of the intended route (IIRC), so you'd already be making lots of exceptions during the routing phase, before even getting started with any practice sessions (Also leaking rad-suits on 20% dmg floors)... And then of course there's the occasional ambush with hitscans which are pretty much always going to be the most unfavourable dice rolls you could possibly imagine.

And then there's stuff like chaingunners, shotgunners, and SMMs in general... Imagine getting to "DIS" in doom(1), and then taking a hit from the spider that you could do no bloody thing about... and that's probably still a better outcome than making it past episode 3, only to get hit in E4M1 or E4M2... or just anything E4 in general...

 

Even with (relatively) reliable strategies it takes lots of tries to even get a single map done "reality" at times, because luck is a factor you need to have on your side in order to stay "reality" in the face of hitscans. And that's why people never bothered doing this... You might as well just do absolutely nothing for fuck knows how many years, and you'd get pretty much the same result, I'd wager... And don't even get me started on how mentally exhausting this endeavour is going to get over extended periods of time: You just WILL make a mistake eventually, is what I'm saying here.

"D2ALL_reality"... Not happening in a non-tool-assisted scenario.

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Posted (edited)

I don't know whether you want Max kills or secrets. If so, I would say many maps require you to take damage to do it. Another thing is that whether you want to do it map by map. There's a category called "UV Max/Reality" for runners who is as stupid as me to run, and it means getting UV Max without taking any damage.

 

If you're interested, you can search for my demos or videos on my channel. For Doom, I've done E4M2, E4M5 and E4M7. For Plutonia, I've done Map01, 02, 05, 06, 07 and 08.

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12 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

I don't know whether you want Max kills or secrets. If so, I would say many maps require you to take damage to do it. Another thing is that whether you want to do it map by map. There's a category called "UV Max/Reality" for runners who is as stupid as me to run, and it means getting UV Max without taking any damage.

 

If you're interested, you can search for my demos or videos on my channel. For Doom, I've done E4M2, E4M5 and E4M7. For Plutonia, I've done Map01, 02, 05, 06, 07 and 08.

Nice information. I will check your demos when I have some more spare time :) .

 

18 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Playing through either Doom(1) or Doom 2 entirely, without taking damage ever (sans D-Exits), is as close to a statistical impossibility as you can possibly get. It's up there with winning the lottery and getting struck by lightning twice and surviving.

Never mind that in some maps you're just bound to take damage from a hurt floor as part of the intended route (IIRC), so you'd already be making lots of exceptions during the routing phase, before even getting started with any practice sessions (Also leaking rad-suits on 20% dmg floors)... And then of course there's the occasional ambush with hitscans which are pretty much always going to be the most unfavourable dice rolls you could possibly imagine.

 And then there's stuff like chaingunners, shotgunners, and SMMs in general... Imagine getting to "DIS" in doom(1), and then taking a hit from the spider that you could do no bloody thing about... and that's probably still a better outcome than making it past episode 3, only to get hit in E4M1 or E4M2... or just anything E4 in general...

  

Even with (relatively) reliable strategies it takes lots of tries to even get a single map done "reality" at times, because luck is a factor you need to have on your side in order to stay "reality" in the face of hitscans. And that's why people never bothered doing this... You might as well just do absolutely nothing for fuck knows how many years, and you'd get pretty much the same result, I'd wager... And don't even get me started on how mentally exhausting this endeavour is going to get over extended periods of time: You just WILL make a mistake eventually, is what I'm saying here.

"D2ALL_reality"... Not happening in a non-tool-assisted scenario.

 

About the spider, with enough tactics, I could easily beat it down without taking any single bullet from it. And I admit the hitscanners are pain in the ass while doing these kind of demos.
Thank you for taking your time to open my stupid mind.

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20 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

I don't know whether you want Max kills or secrets.

Not that I'd ever even bother trying, but just based on "common sense" I'd argue that going for the fastest possible route (with safety strats in mind) is the most efficient way to ever produce a result to begin with, because - I agree - that the longer you're in a map, the more dice are getting rolled, which is not what you want to do in a reality run.

Man, I'm just thinking about getting past the early scan-fests in Doom2, and not getting tripped up by clipping manc-balls in "dead simple", only to take a hit from a shotgunner in "the pit", or getting sniped by some faraway chainer in "industrial zone" or anything along those lines... Literally all my neurons are screaming "hell no" right now...

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5 hours ago, TheNoob_Gamer said:

should I do this kind of playthrough?

You should do what you want to do. You don't need to ask people what to do. You are free and don't need any permissions.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Gez said:

Scripted sequences? In classic Doom?

 

Arguably is the very end of E1M8 is something of a scripted sequence? :D

 

A damageless run sounds amazing to see in practice, good luck to you OP!

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48 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

 not getting tripped up by clipping manc-balls in "dead simple"

Time to check out my stupid Map07 UV -Fast/Reality run ;P   Yeah, I know you're talking about the whole thing. To be honest, there are probably some maps out there where you're guaranteed to take damage even you just want to get pass it. Of course, there are more maps out there where there isn't a reliable way to get through without taking damage.

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As vdgg said, I did doom e1m1-e1m9 max/reality (got hit on e1m4) and doom2 map01-map04 max/reality (got hit on map05). Didn't spend tons of time on them, just did them for fun, but I wouldn't want to try again.

There's also a category called "r3ality" that lets you take unavoidable/unlucky sector damage from lava and stuff. But it's not to be abused by going into lava to safely fight monsters, for example.

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I used to play wads 100% while trying to take very little to no damage as possible whenever I can. It's a cool challenge, but obviously isn't something to take seriously.

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I remember someone realised a while ago that you could tell when you were going to take damage from a damaging floor by looking at the weapon bob; you only take damage when your weapon is at its highest point (be it left or right), so that's one (theoretical) way to avoid damage in short trips through damaging floors.

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Very hard when you have the shotgunners and chaingunners to account for.

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One small thing that would help with hitscanners is to know that when you do damage to one, they will almost always immediately shoot at you. You'll probably be playing it like Gears of War when fighting hitscanners, constantly popping in and out of cover to take potshots.

 

This makes me want a mod that gets rid of all healing items so you have to complete an entire episode/game with only the 100 health you start the first level with.

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Posted (edited)
On 1/7/2019 at 10:51 AM, TheNoob_Gamer said:

About the spider, with enough tactics, I could easily beat it down without taking any single bullet from it

I think it's really important to put these things into perspective and think quite clearly how much agency you really have at any given point in time.

Sure, you can play the "DIS" fight in such a way that, because of how much "wind up" the SMMs attack has, you drastically manipulate the odds of not getting hit in your favour. However, many other situations that involve hitscans provide less "tools" for doing that.

 

E3M8's SMM example really stands for any hitscanner that inhabits any of the maps you will play where the question is either:
"do I get a kill/pain-state off fast enough, in order to successfully avoid taking any damage?"
or
"do I have any means to sidestep an unfavourable situation in the first place?"

You're going to have to accept situations which can be a proverbial coinflip, or something even less "favourable" than that. So when you get into the planning phase of your run, and you're looking at thing placement relative to where you're approaching said things from, to check what your options are, you'll notice that even E1M1 can throw you under the bus at times "if it wants to".

 

At this point, the most logical thing to do in order to evaluate how likely you are to produce your desired outcome, is to run the map for example 10-20 times with what you think is the most reliable way to achieve a "reality", and then look at your success-rate in terms of percentage. Checking your odds on an individual basis like that is something you'll repeat for any other map that has problematic situations, and then you write that stuff down to check how likely you'll make it past an episode at the end of the planning phase.

Just to give a theoretical example, let's say 8 maps with success rates that I pull out of thin air.
1. 70%
2. 40%
3. 65%
4. 50%
5. 50%
6. 35%
7. 55%
8. 65%
You get roughly 1% odds of success for just a single episode (If I fed my calculator the correct numbers).

Even though the numbers don't look like it's extremely unrealistic to finish a single map without taking damage, you need to be aware that you would have to play all the maps in a single segment, which is why the bottom line of roughly 1% chance of success is what matters in the end. And you get that number even though the average chance of success per map in my example is at around 50% or so, which again, doesn't look that bad at first glance, but it's coinflip upon coinflip upon coinflip that's the problem.

If you string together 3 episodes (assuming similar success rates per episode) you're looking at odds of let's say a "generous" 1.5%³ = 0.00034% for three episodes, and even less if you play the fourth episode as well as a consequence. Playing 30 maps of Doom 2 might be roughly the same as 4 episodes in Doom, and don't even think about playing any of the secret maps in Doom2 because scanners...

Now, all the "play the way you enjoy the most" type of responses aside, it's really important to check if what you're gunning for is realistic, because having a goal you can't seem to achieve, no matter how hard you try, is a pretty sure fire way to ruin maps, or even an entire game for yourself, because eventually the failed attempts are going to pile up.

Personally, I'd recommend gunning for a "softer goal", such as simply taking the least amount of damage possible, and then conducting a run to put up for discussion to see if other people rally around that concept after seeing it in action. You might even create a new demo category that way, and if it's not that, then you'll at least have had a better time playing the game while also getting better at it.

Also sorry for wall of text, had to get it off my chest.

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rimantas said:

OP didn't say he won't use godmode BTW.

 

On 1/7/2019 at 5:57 AM, TheNoob_Gamer said:

Recently I've been interested in making a Doom playthrough without taking any single hit from enemies/environment

What does "godmode" have to do with this? Being hit is being hit is being hit, with or without taking damage lmao....

edit: Never mind that "without losing any health" is only an achievement if it's possible to lose health to begin with. Everybody can IDDQD through all of Doom, upload a video and call it a day, what would the point even be?

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

 

What does "godmode" have to do with this? Being hit is being hit is being hit, with or without taking damage lmao....

edit: Never mind that "without losing any health" is only an achievement if it's possible to lose health to begin with. Everybody can IDDQD through all of Doom, upload a video and call it a day, what would the point even be?

Whoops, guess I'll have to edit my post then.

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A self-inflicted challenge I sometimes use is that health cannot go below 100%. If I've picked up a soulsphere or something, then hits are okay because it's magic; but once the magic is depleted it's back to reality rules. Health below 100 means death. A slightly more lenient variant is with 80% as the threshold --  if the mugshot gets bloody, you're dead.

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Posted (edited)

Speaking of self-imposed challenges, there was a demo-category which eventually died a silent death, partially because the rules were a tad difficult to explain properly I guess.

It's called "min/max" or "max/min" as far as I am aware and it was a "soft reality" type of category where getting hit was bad, but didn't mean that you'd have to stop recording. Essentially the category used your health total as a "score" of sorts. At this point the category is so obscure that it's not even mentioned on the DSDA's info page anymore, but sometimes you get to find one of these runs in the "other" section of older WADs, for example Steffen Udluft's E2M4 "maximum minimum health: 200".


In principle, these types of runs have 2 phases:

During phase 1 you can increase your "health score" by picking up any items that will raise your health past the threshold of 100 (200 being max, of course).
Phase 2 starts either upon reaching whatever the highest health total is that you can achieve in the map, or upon taking damage. From this point on your lowest health value will be your score.

I guess you can see why sometimes it's not so easy to explain or understand, but here's a simple example:

-You start a map and pick up a megasphere eventually, until then you take no damage, thus your score is at a current 200.
-Now you're getting hit and your health drops to 150%, which will be the highest possible score you can achieve going forward, even if you pick up another mega.
-Let's say you pick up another mega, then take damage angain and drop to 170% health. Your highest possible score is still capped at 150, as it was the lowest value during phase 2 until now.
-Let's say you take damage again, dropping down to 120%. Now your new "score cap" is 120, even if you finished the map maxed out entirely at 200% (or any value higher than 120).

So, strategically speaking, during phase 1 you are looking to achieve the highest health total possible. And During phase 2 you are looking to preserve as much of your accumulated health as you possibly can.

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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Short of a TAS run I don't know why you'd try to ironman the whole game like this. Many "easy" maps will suddenly become extremely difficult\frame perfect territory. Not to mention any place where you have to cross nukage or even worse, hell slime. 

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