Akeldama - Now on Idgames!

[gaspe]

2 hours ago, AD_79 said:

It's shaping to be a cool project and I'm looking forward to the finished set, but I have a couple concerns with it going public like this. First, all of the new contributors should keep in mind that this is a vanilla project. This means that maps should be tested extensively in vanilla (ChocoRenderLimits), and that doesn't just mean to get someone to do so after the map is built. Mappers, please test your maps as you make them. Second, how much quality control is this project going to have? I had interest before as the set was initially looking to be a tighter, team-based effort to me. With the project opening up to the public though, I'm concerned that map quality could end up being a fair amount less consistent as a result.

I have the same thoughts, especially on the second point. But In the end it's nothing that can't be sort out.

[DJVCardMaster]

I feel like MAP20 by rule has to be epic, or needs to something that makes it memorable. Like AV's or Scythe. So I'm looking foward to it.

[TheV1perK1ller]

24 minutes ago, DJVCardMaster said:

I feel like MAP20 by rule has to be epic, or needs to something that makes it memorable. Like AV's or Scythe. So I'm looking foward to it.

I will certainly try my best. I plan on making it a lite-slaughter level, based in Hell. I just hope that it is up to standard.

[valkiriforce]

That will be taken into account when the maps are collectively posted - I will rearrange accordingly if it is needed; there's no sense to be having smaller, easier maps taking place after bigger and more difficult ones to complete. That's why bigger maps will likely take priority for later parts of any given episode.

 

Also, weren't projects like CC4 developed publicly? There was a good sense of quality control in that project; that's why some of my first publicly uploaded maps weren't accepted into that project. I don't see how this is any different. I am thankful for the input so far though and I would appreciate any other points that need to be addressed. If there are any textures people would like to include you can either post them here or send them over to me through PM and I'll update the resource as long as it fits thematically with what's already being used in the wad.

[TheV1perK1ller]

Actually, someone can take over my slot. I am no mapper.

[Pegleg]

3 minutes ago, TheV1perK1ller said:

Actually, someone can take over my slot. I am no mapper.

 

Are you sure? I can understand feeling frustrated, but there's plenty of people around to help, so you don't need to give up if you're interested in making a map for this project. Or, I suppose, you could collaborate with someone if a person was interested and @valkiriforce was OK with it.

 

 

By the way, I know I seem like a vulture for saying this, but if he does decide to leave completely, I'll take his spot.

[Juza]

12 minutes ago, TheV1perK1ller said:

Actually, someone can take over my slot. I am no mapper.

Don't give up dude. You're one of my favorite speedrunners. I wanna play a map from you

[TheV1perK1ller]

4 minutes ago, Pegleg said:

 

Are you sure? I can understand feeling frustrated, but there's plenty of people around to help, so you don't need to give up if you're interested in making a map for this project.

 

I think I can continue. I have never submitted a map before, you see. Saying this, I have some ideas, but the execution is poor. I will just have to press on, but thanks for the support.

 

[Juza]

Hardest part is always the execution, I think most if not all mappers can agree with that

[DJVCardMaster]

19 minutes ago, Juza said:

Hardest part is always the execution, I think most if not all mappers can agree with that

When I was thoughtless, I just started drawing random conected rooms and map sketches and then made them in Doom Builder. I still do this when I don't know what to make. The good thing is that you don't even need to follow a theme, so you can have even less things in mind.

 

42 minutes ago, TheV1perK1ller said:

Actually, someone can take over my slot. I am no mapper.

Don't even feel pressured on my statement, it was just a suggestion, since I mostly see epic maps take place on the slot 20. But I think a nivel HR styled map would fit. But anyways it could still be something else. I think you can do something interesting. And obviously, if you need help you have Valkiriforce or the rest of the mappers for assistance, me included

Edited January 10, 2019 by DJVCardMaster

[Pegleg]

2 hours ago, TheV1perK1ller said:

I think I can continue. I have never submitted a map before, you see. Saying this, I have some ideas, but the execution is poor. I will just have to press on, but thanks for the support.

 

 

That's good to hear. Like DJVCardMaster said, we're all here for help if you need it. And having an idea to start with is good. You have the first step.

 

As for the notion of creating an "epic" map, valkiriforce already said he would reorder the maps as needed once they were all finished. So, make your map. Do your best. Ask for help. It's a process. And, at the end of the day, valkiriforce will put the map where he wants it.

[wolfmcbeard]

3 hours ago, TheV1perK1ller said:

I have never submitted a map before, you see. Saying this, I have some ideas, but the execution is poor

You ain't alone here, if you have an idea then go for it.
There are plenty who can give tips for execution and even how to put your ideas to stone (or in this case, the grid).
I've never mapped outside of udmf except for one other time in December, so keeping an eye on visplane overflow is a new hurdle for me.

[TheV1perK1ller]

Thank you everyone for your kind words. I really do want to complete my entry, but I am very much a perfectionist when it comes to texturing (there must be NO misalignments). As a result I spend more time correcting things, than creating. I will just keep on trying, and hopefully I can get it done.

[Juza]

This perfectionism went away with time, from my experience.

[wolfmcbeard]

I'm the exact same, floor and ceiling misalignment are the bane of my existence.

[joepallai]

6 hours ago, DJVCardMaster said:

I feel like MAP20 by rule has to be epic, or needs to something that makes it memorable. Like AV's or Scythe. So I'm looking foward to it.

 

 

With the exception of Eternal Doom, I always thought it was MAP27 that was the largest level to play through in all of these early megawads; then AV came along and broke that "rule".   

 

 

[The_SloVinator]

So, map 5 is in episode 1 right? Like in DooM 2?

[Walter confetti]

2 hours ago, The_SloVinator said:

So, map 5 is in episode 1 right? Like in DooM 2?

Yes, is the one with snowy mountains sky in this project...

 

Also, what do you looking for a possible MAP32? I have an idea about a level that can be completed after collecting a number x of keys (or some other things like a power-ups or some other stuff) and lines in the same place that trigger a way to kill the ck dolls, or also making a Dehacked little work for changing the commander keen doll into a modified (or brand new) monster that needs to be killed for triggering the special sector effect...

 

Not started yet anything, expect a little test room for seen if BLAKWAL textures works with the new sky...

[slayer's]

in work

[valkiriforce]

9 hours ago, TheV1perK1ller said:

Thank you everyone for your kind words. I really do want to complete my entry, but I am very much a perfectionist when it comes to texturing (there must be NO misalignments). As a result I spend more time correcting things, than creating. I will just keep on trying, and hopefully I can get it done.

 

Yeah, I was curious to see an entry from you. If it should happen that you feel dissatisfied or leave it unfinished, I or someone else could always take a shot at working on your map. The same goes for any other level in the project if anything is left unfinished, then maybe it could be salvaged into something playable if anyone volunteers to bring it up to standard. I wouldn't worry about it though; I trust you know what you're doing and there's plenty of people here willing to give feedback when the map is eventually posted.

 

5 hours ago, Walter confetti said:

Yes, is the one with snowy mountains sky in this project...

 

Also, what do you looking for a possible MAP32? I have an idea about a level that can be completed after collecting a number x of keys (or some other things like a power-ups or some other stuff) and lines in the same place that trigger a way to kill the ck dolls, or also making a Dehacked little work for changing the commander keen doll into a modified (or brand new) monster that needs to be killed for triggering the special sector effect...

 

Not started yet anything, expect a little test room for seen if BLAKWAL textures works with the new sky...

 

I would very much like to put emphasis on something out of the ordinary for secret level slots - so nothing too much along the same lines of what you'd normally encounter in a given mapset. Also I'm not really interested in either the Wolfenstein SS or Commander Keen enemies being used - unless the latter somehow involves them being used in an off-screen scenario (similar to Alien Vendetta's MAP30) but yeah if you have any ideas please feel free to share them here. I think anyone else would agree that the 31 and 32 slots are to be used to a special effect. I still think MAP31 would be a good place for people to possibly collaborate on something abstract or even disconnected - kind of similar to the Nova series' Megiddo maps so long as all of it works in vanilla. Personally I would like to keep in line with what Memento Mori/Requiem/Alien Vendetta did in keeping with the original monsters and just relying more on an interesting map idea.

 

[EDIT] I've included a link to Chocolate Doom and chocorenderlimits in the first post; please test accordingly!

Edited January 10, 2019 by valkiriforce

[wolfmcbeard]

Well, I've accomplished a fair bit today and I'm only just now going to bed, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to post  a screeny of the start area.


 

[pcorf]

I've started. Here are some shots. Taken with Zdoom. But final testing will be -complevel 2. I am using the visplane explorer to make sure I keep the visplanes well below the 128 limit.

[waverider]

Just going to point out that from what I've heard, Visplane Explorer isn't good enough when it comes to catching VPO's, it seems that you have to keep all doors open in the editor for VE to go a decently good job and even then I don't think it will cover all angles.

 

I believe Chocorenderlimits is the only program that will show the amount of visplanes (and segs) correctly.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Edited January 10, 2019 by waverider

[Pegleg]

23 minutes ago, waverider said:

Just going to point out that from what I've heard, Visplane Explorer isn't good enough when it comes to catching VPO's, it seems that you have to keep all doors open in the editor for VE to go a decently good job and even then I don't think it will cover all angles.

 

I believe Chocorenderlimits is the only program that will show the amount of visplanes (and segs) correctly.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

These are the main issues with using Visplane Explorer as your ONLY diagnostic tool:

• Visplane Explorer analyzes visplanes and segs in 8 directions (45 degree increments starting at 0) only. It calculates the visplanes and segs in view from every point, but only looking in those 8 directions.
• Visplane Explorer does not account for changes in the map during play (lifts, moving floors, stairs raising or lowering, monsters getting trapped on a rising platform preventing it from rising all the way to the top, etc.).
• All doors are either open or closed during the analysis. This is the case even if it is virtually impossible for two doors to be open simultaneously in actual play, so you may end up with an inflated number of visplanes and/or segs.

That being said, Visplane Explorer provides a good starting point from which to judge your map. It runs relatively quickly, you can reload the map quickly if you make changes, and you can get a general idea of the visplanes/segs visible in the map. If an area is close to the visplane/seg limit (or even just high), it's worth investigating more closely and possibly reworking. And that's where Chocorenderlimits would come in. Although, if Visplane Explorer is indicating that no area in your map is above 70 or 80 visplanes or 200 segs, you're probably OK without running Chocorenderlimits.

 

Of course, you are right that Chocorenderlimits is the only way to get a definitive number in a dynamic setting. So, if all you used was Chocorenderlimits, that wouldn't be bad. However, I think that to completely discount Visplane Explorer and dismiss using it because of its limitations is the wrong way to approach vanilla mapping.

[obake]

Would it be alright if I take one of the secret maps? I know the focus is mostly on E1 as of now, but if possible, I would like to try out making a secret map for a community project.

[DJVCardMaster]

3 hours ago, pcorf said:

I've started. Here are some shots. Taken with Zdoom. But final testing will be -complevel 2. I am using the visplane explorer to make sure I keep the visplanes well below the 128 limit.

Just realized that we have Paul Corfiatis in the project, lol

So we have someone with experience if we want to learn.

[valkiriforce]

This is probably bad timing on my part but I just changed the thread title since we've exceeded the number of people who want to create a map for this; there is always a chance someone won't create a map or someone drops out, so I'll be sure to keep you in mind @obake

 

I'm also wondering about any musicians that would be willing to compose for this project, as well as graphic artists for a title screen, interpic and eventually bossback. I would also like to know if there are any specific textures anyone would like to see in this mapset; I've created a number of marble variants and some brick and techbase material. galileo31dos01 is already working on an HUD graphic so they'll post it here when they're finished.

[waverider]

2 hours ago, Pegleg said:

 

These are the main issues with using Visplane Explorer as your ONLY diagnostic tool:

• Visplane Explorer analyzes visplanes and segs in 8 directions (45 degree increments starting at 0) only. It calculates the visplanes and segs in view from every point, but only looking in those 8 directions.
• Visplane Explorer does not account for changes in the map during play (lifts, moving floors, stairs raising or lowering, monsters getting trapped on a rising platform preventing it from rising all the way to the top, etc.).
• All doors are either open or closed during the analysis. This is the case even if it is virtually impossible for two doors to be open simultaneously in actual play, so you may end up with an inflated number of visplanes and/or segs.

That being said, Visplane Explorer provides a good starting point from which to judge your map. It runs relatively quickly, you can reload the map quickly if you make changes, and you can get a general idea of the visplanes/segs visible in the map. If an area is close to the visplane/seg limit (or even just high), it's worth investigating more closely and possibly reworking. And that's where Chocorenderlimits would come in. Although, if Visplane Explorer is indicating that no area in your map is above 70 or 80 visplanes or 200 segs, you're probably OK without running Chocorenderlimits.

 

Of course, you are right that Chocorenderlimits is the only way to get a definitive number in a dynamic setting. So, if all you used was Chocorenderlimits, that wouldn't be bad. However, I think that to completely discount Visplane Explorer and dismiss using it because of its limitations is the wrong way to approach vanilla mapping.

 

Maybe I sounded a bit harsh, and the way you describe it, it sounds like, sure, it could prove useful in regards to VPO catching, I'm not really implying the program is useless. Just saying that the mapper shouldn't just rely on Visplane Explorer, because I've seen it myself many times in Chocorenderlimits - that in one angle, the visplanes are about 70-80 visplanes, and then you move the player just a tad - and voila - visplanes spike up to 120-130! That can happen and has happened to me many times during mapping and testing.

 

I've also tested maps that were tested in Visplane Explorer without it showing any VPO's, and then when I tested it in Chocorenderlimits, there were actually several VPO's. 

 

Anyway, I think we can both agree on that both programs have it's worth, but I'd like to mention that no vanilla map should be released without having at least a once-over in Chocorenderlimits! :)

 

 

[wolfmcbeard]

I'd be lying if I said I knew what all these numbers meant...
I want to make sure everything's good as well as get an idea of what I'm looking at exactly, the lowest set of numbers (directly over the hud) are, I assume, visplanes but I am absolutely lost on the rest.
 

[waverider]

@wolfmcbeard: You're right in assuming "PLN" is visplanes. "SEG" stands for drawsegs. "OPN" is openings, which is well explained elsewhere here on DW. "SPR" is max allowed sprites at the same time and "PLT" I believe is the number of lifts that can be active at one and the same time.