What are your thoughts about using the same music several times in a wad?

[Roofi]

Hello , I make a little thread about something which was quite common before but a lot less today. Doom 1 and Doom 2 has many maps which share the same music. Imo ,  I find it interesting to see how a music can fit various situations. For instance , I like how the music of Doom 2's map 10 fit with a rather spooky tech base and also with desolated suburbs (Map 16).

 

So , what are your thoughts about this? Are you bothered when a megawad doesn't have 32 different music or maybe you don't care a lot about it? Is it boring or rather interesting for you?

Edited January 9, 2019 by Roofi

[DJVCardMaster]

Doom 2 Style or TNT fits really well.

I hate when a megawad is full of new music and you don't get to hear good tunes twice in the megawad. That happens in Memento Mori 2, for example.

By the way, the first Memento Mori has another problem. It has really nice tunes, but you hear all of them until map15 and they start repeating, instead of having some "repeating while still adding new songs" kind of progression.

[elend]

Sure, no problem at all. It can establish a theme, even. And yeah, I also prefer to hear a good tune twice, than a lesser tune instead.

[Misty]

Well, I don't mind listening the same track both times as long if midi fits both different maps. It's rare thing these days, it could be used more as nod to iwads or oldschool megawads. 

[Deadwing]

I enjoy it a lot. It helps to create context through the whole mapset and makes the whole experience more memorable. Also, hearing a midi only once (even if it's in a large map) sucks, tbh, especially when it's a very good one.

[Dragonfly]

I personally dislike it. I feel the music is very much part of the map and it's personality, to have that become watered down by sharing it with other maps makes it feel weak to me. Example: Doom 2 MAP15 using D_RUNNIN.

[yakfak]

confessions of a musician: i overrule the authorial curatorial power with IDMUS a lot, and will choose to put on my favourite tune in the set instead of listening to one I don't find interesting, and if that changes the feel of the level then good =P i'd sooner play a megawad that played the same good song 32 times than one with a wide array of weak but suitable pieces

[TheNoob_Gamer]

That heavily depends on the theme of the map and the music track that is being played in that map and also how many maps used that same track.

[rehelekretep]

really good question. a thought experiment: would Misri Halek be as memorable if its midi had been shared with two other maps in AV? id argue no, so im against sharing within the same mapset.

i do like seeing how midis fit different maps in different wads though, unless its completely overused of course.

[Deadwing]

17 minutes ago, rehelekretep said:

really good question. a thought experiment: would Misri Halek be as memorable if its midi had been shared with two other maps in AV? id argue no, so im against sharing within the same mapset.

i do like seeing how midis fit different maps in different wads though, unless its completely overused of course.

 

That's a nice experiment haha
For me, it depends. It the midi was used in an earlier map, I also would say no. If the midi was used first in Misri Halek, and then again in a supposed later map, I don't see it changing too much Misri Halek experience.

[rehelekretep]

that is a good point!

although does it not take something away from this other map in that case?

[Juza]

I don't like it. Going Down is an exception because every map that uses the same track has about same level of insanity, and the soundtrack is entirely original too.

[Doomkid]

It’s not a big deal at all unless the midi is irritating or it’s used in too close proximity. NRFTL, while great, is super short yet has the audacity to use one of the less interesting Doom2 midis twice and back to freaking back, iirc. That just struck me as boring and lazy, even if a minor thing.

 

What I usually do is use a midi once per wad, then if I love it enough for whatever reason it might appear a second time in a newer wad. I got ‘double mileage’ out of some old midis I made by using them once in one of my single player mapsets and then again in doomkid’s deathmatch.

 

I love hearing a good midi but not multiple times in one sitting.

[Juza]

Thank God for IDMUS

[SOSU]

If the midi is nice i don't mind :)

[Gez]

It depends why it's done.

 

If it's blatantly "I couldn't be bothered to look for more tracks", then it is bad. But if it's deliberately done to create a recurring signature theme; such as how all the "hub" maps in BTSX episodes use the same track which ends up being the episode's own theme due to that, then there's nothing wrong.

[Alfonzo]

1 hour ago, Gez said:

a recurring signature theme

 

Speaking of which, I can't think of many WADs beyond ICARUS that sport a recurring theme across otherwise different MIDIs. While I'm generally a fan of well-timed repetition for some tracks, this is something I'd love to hear much more of. Probably, even, it should be closer to the norm.

 

3 hours ago, yakfak said:

i'd sooner play a megawad that played the same good song 32 times than one with a wide array of weak but suitable pieces

 

I'm big on middling and unassuming pieces to big up the impression of stuff that's either side of them — at least for maps that likewise fall "between spaces." They're enjoyable, sure, but crucially they're not clamoring to get into your head along with the fifteen-or-however-many tracks before them. As part of a wider OST... you can slather that background ooze all over my ears. I won't remember it when the cast is called at MAP30, but the other, better tracks will burn a little brighter.

 

Doomworld, you must invest in ooze!

Edited January 10, 2019 by Alfonzo : Ooze.

[Dark Pulse]

If done carefully (well spread and only applied to one or two songs perhaps), it can be fine.

 

Otherwise, it's part of one of the reasons I think most of Doom II's soundtrack frankly sucked. Not only did Dave D. Taylor Blues not fit the game well, it certainly didn't feel like it fit any better the second or third times I heard it in a Doom II playthrough. And don't even get me started on Into Sandy's City.

 

Give every map a unique song, on the other hand, and the map becomes a lot more memorable, because you associate that song with that map. This was the case for most of Doom I (save for a couple reuses, and of course, ignoring E4 as that was entirely reuses).

[Fonze]

Among the peak of gamer entitlement.

[MFG38]

I mostly don't mind it. The only time I do is when the music itself grates my ears.

[cannonball]

In the end if the midi fits the map then that is all that matters, if it fits two maps in the same set then that is perfectly okay.

[galileo31dos01]

I don't mind repetition in the iwads. The midis have to blend with the map if you know what I mean. Therefore if Death Bells went well in maps 04 and 13, although not much in map 29, imo. Going Down for example has limited number of tracks and are reused in different maps, that's also a case where I found them alright. Not very often I hear a midi and think "well this just doesn't fit in here", like Nova's map 31 or Sunder's map 07. So yea, at the end of the day, when it fits, that's all that matters to me, personally.

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

It's fine as long as there's enough space between instances.  Although I also really liked what Hexen did with having remixes that kept some of the same themes instead of straight up the same track (speaking for the MUS version of the soundtrack here, not the CD).

[Tristan]

3 hours ago, Alfonzo said:

Speaking of which, I can't think of many WADs beyond ICARUS that sport a recurring theme across otherwise different MIDIs. While I'm generally a fan of well-timed repetition for some tracks, this is something I'd love to hear much more of. Probably, even, it should be closer to the norm.

 

It's still unreleased, but I made MIDIs for every odd-numbered map in Panophobia which all share recurring instrument choices and there's quite a few recurring melodies, which themselves are mostly based on other MIDIs that show up in the WAD.

[yakfak]

3 hours ago, Alfonzo said:

I'm big on middling and unassuming pieces to big up the impression of stuff that's either side of them — at least for maps that likewise fall "between spaces." They're enjoyable, sure, but crucially they're not clamoring to get into your head along with the fifteen-or-however-many tracks before them. As part of a wider OST... you can slather that background ooze all over my ears. I won't remember it when the cast is called at MAP30, but the other, better tracks will burn a little brighter.

 

that's true :3 but unassuming bits of music can still be interesting in their own specific harmonies and pacing and mood and choices of instrument, i wasn't suggesting that I only wanted to hear bombastic music in Doom!

 

but if a level has duke3d or tnt music in it I'm skipping away from that track automatically. i refuse to believe it was the most suitable tune giggle

[Doomkid]

6 hours ago, Alfonzo said:

Speaking of which, I can't think of many WADs beyond ICARUS that sport a recurring theme across otherwise different MIDIs. While I'm generally a fan of well-timed repetition for some tracks, this is something I'd love to hear much more of. Probably, even, it should be closer to the norm.

 

map07 (and map16) use a midi that very much blends into the midi used in map14. 7 has the “calm before the storm” feel while 14 is where the action kicks in. My friend Sam was the main brain behind these tracks and obviously they were written to be placed back to back but it didn’t up that way, I can’t remember why. The wad is actually 90% original tunes but the music got no comments, let alone anyone noticing a motif shared between the midis, so I figured it was hardly worth investing any more effort into doing it again. I really like the idea though and Icarus pulls it off perfectly. I’ve found myself humming that main melody before more than once!

[Capellan]

22 hours ago, Roofi said:

Are you bothered when a megawad doesn't have 32 different music or maybe you don't care a lot about it?

 

I play with -nomusic so every map sounds the same to me :)

 

 

[Impie]

If your music selection for a project is small, you use what you got.

[Bauul]

 

9 hours ago, Capellan said:

I play with -nomusic so every map sounds the same to me :)

 

As someone who spends hours and hours meticulously choosing the right music tracks for my maps, this makes me really sad! Doubly so if it's original music written specifically for that map.

 

On topic: I very much agree with Dragonfly; music tracks are an integral part of a map's identity. If two maps have the same music track then in my mind their share an identity. If that's deliberate then fine, but unique music is generally better.

[Nancsi]

The two instances I hated it were D_Runnin on Map 15 (horrible fit IMHO, the score is a typical intro score to pump your adrenaline up, and doesn't work for long actually) and On the Hunt on E3M6 (another memorable and srong score that is related to E1M6 confusion, not sandbox style levels). I also don't like At Doom's Gate for Plutonia Map29. Like D_Runnin, it's a score for a short intro, not for extended listening.

 

The others are OK with me. Into Sandy's City IMHO is a much better fit for NRFTL Vivisection than to the mess called The Pit. NRFTL should have tried harder for more variety though.