Early and unused DOOM 64 Level Designs

[Hyde]

25 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

@Hyde If you indeed made The Mansion, can we have a picture of you to put on a dartboard or something for that goddamn teleporter maze for the red skull key? Like I got that the little lights marked start and end, but past that it was a total trial and error deal, and back in the day before a full-scale internet to figure things out, that was a good few minutes on the first playthrough right there. :)

 

I'm not 100% sure if even looking at it in the automap will show you the way - can't remember right now.

 

hahahaha - I think the tiles lit up as you correctly guessed! C'mon, that's gotta soften that pain a little! In hindsight, putting some sort of 'map' or indication/path/etc, elsewhere in the level, would have been better, but I don't think failure was so bad that trial and error was overly frustrating (or was it!). 

 

The beauty of Doom was that almost any idea, contextually, just worked. You didn't need to reason why a teleporter maze was guarding a key. It just was! 

 

Other random tidbit - our (everyone at Midway) favorite map to DM in was Downtown in D2. Abusing the infinite height of the players was a blast on that wall you teleported to, to jump to the.... soulsphere? Having your buddy make the leap, only to drop right in front of you unwittingly, then get kissed gently with a double barrel shotgun made for the bestest kills. Abusing the wall speed angle glitch along the outside was fun too. 

 

 

[Dark Pulse]

53 minutes ago, Hyde said:

 

hahahaha - I think the tiles lit up as you correctly guessed! C'mon, that's gotta soften that pain a little! In hindsight, putting some sort of 'map' or indication/path/etc, elsewhere in the level, would have been better, but I don't think failure was so bad that trial and error was overly frustrating (or was it!). 

 

The beauty of Doom was that almost any idea, contextually, just worked. You didn't need to reason why a teleporter maze was guarding a key. It just was! 

Oh, I got no problem with the idea, nor do you even really need to justify its presence - I just wish it was a bit clearer which way you had to go. :P

 

TNT MAP30: Last Call is a pretty good example (though also with a far harsher punishment for failure) of that sort of puzzle being done "right" as its clue is obvious in hindsight, but subtle if you don't grasp it. Setting it up how you did will at least let you keep track of your progress as you slowly figure it out, but until you do, it's straight-up trial and error, and on a system where you can't just quicksave and load your game if you screw up.

[Hyde]

2 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Oh, I got no problem with the idea, nor do you even really need to justify its presence - I just wish it was a bit clearer which way you had to go. :P

 

Totally agree. The thing I've learned over the years reflects that ideal. I played newcat3.wad to verify it was solid and was shocked at how many blind switches there were (switches you just flipped, but had little or no context as to what they did). Sometimes, that's ok, otherwise, showing the player the outcome of their action goes a long way towards investing them in the moment. 

[Job]

@Hyde, I'm curious if you have any favorite levels or map sets from our community. I'd like to hear more about your perspective on that, particularly design aspects and themes, etc. 

[Hyde]

6 minutes ago, Job said:

@Hyde, I'm curious if you have any favorite levels or map sets from our community. I'd like to hear more about your perspective on that, particularly design aspects and themes, etc. 

 

Tough question, but 2 sets I recall. Memento Mori and Plutonia. I cannot say exactly why, but I think the detail and interesting tricks unseen before (no specifics here, just vague memory) made those stand out. Outside of that, I downloaded hundreds of wads, easily. Plenty of duds, and plenty of diamonds too.   Alt.binaries.doom (aw yeah - dem alt.binaries* groups ;) was scrubbed through often by us. No previewing anything back then - had to download it and fire it up! I remember tagging tons of things and just going to sleep while my rad 14.4~56.6 did it's thing (hopefully). Always playing, always learning back then.

 

I do recall downloading the Aliens TC too - It wasn't so much the levels that grabbed my attention, but the friggin sounds/feel. Holy sheeeeiiiit, did it get me back then.

[Dark Pulse]

What about more modern stuff? Good examples include TCs like Action Doom 2, or more modern mods like Doomslayer Chronicles or Russian Overkill.

 

Also some hella hard slaughter wads, like Chillax or the Slaughterfest series.

 

And then you get some great joke wads, like Mock 2: The Speed of Stupid.

[CoTeCiO]

@Aubrey Hodges comes around the forums every once in a while. He could shed light on the "Danny won" sample.

 

I'd love to hear of a work in progress cart of Doom Absolution. Pretty unlikely now, but sometimes these things pop up after a lifetime. I really missed multiplayer in Doom 64.

[Hyde]

5 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

What about more modern stuff? Good examples include TCs like Action Doom 2, or more modern mods like Doomslayer Chronicles or Russian Overkill.

 

Also some hella hard slaughter wads, like Chillax or the Slaughterfest series.

 

And then you get some great joke wads, like Mock 2: The Speed of Stupid.

 

I haven't played any Doom content in... forever. After D64:A ended, we shifted directions completely and began working on an arcade title. Then another (which was cancelled), then a platformer where I was hoping to flex some LD skills again (also cancelled, but a potential IP I still fondly remember), etc etc etc. I did try out the first iteration of D64 on for PC some time ago, but that was about it really.

 

As for sequels - I upgraded my PC just for Doom3 (I did the same back in the day too, for Quake as well. P120 to P133, etc - get that 2fps increase!), but... couldn't get into it. The jump scares, the slower pacing. Didn't grab me. And I'm ashamed to admit, but I'm only about halfway through the latest Doom (my oldest son is constantly badgering me to finish it too) but it's exactly what I wanted to experience (some of the secrets are doozies to find). All this nostalgic talk does make me want to fire up some goodness though.

[Hyde]

2 hours ago, CoTeCiO said:

@Aubrey Hodges comes around the forums every once in a while. He could shed light on the "Danny won" sample.

 

I'd love to hear of a work in progress cart of Doom Absolution. Pretty unlikely now, but sometimes these things pop up after a lifetime. I really missed multiplayer in Doom 64.

 

Dev was on a SGI Indy so if any of it exists, it's in loose files on those drives which no doubt are long gone. We didn't burn roms until towards the end for QA/submission. I can't recall why we didn't focus on multiplayer in D64, particularly after having it on PSX (but the link cable made that a no brainer) - I don't know how well our levels would have played in MP anyway, given the scripting, which might be part/most of the reason?

[whatup876]

First, i'd like to thank you and your team for PSX Doom and Doom 64.

 

Second i have at least two questions for you, if you don't mind answering them:

 

* Where did the idea of the new enemies (nightmare specter on ps1, nightmare imp on Doom 64, Doom 64's take on lost souls, Pain elementals and Arachnotrons and Mother Demon) came from?

 

* Doom had a power up that was the light amp visor which could light up rooms by technically removing darkness and Doom 64 only had one of those, at the very second level; did the light amplification visor power up had anything to do with the colored lightning and darkness?

[Hyde]

5 minutes ago, whatup876 said:

* Where did the idea of the new enemies (nightmare specter on ps1, nightmare imp on Doom 64, Doom 64's take on lost souls, Pain elementals and Arachnotrons and Mother Demon) came from?

 

* Doom had a power up that was the light amp visor which could light up rooms by technically removing darkness and Doom 64 only had one of those, at the very second level; did the light amplification visor power up had anything to do with the colored lightning and darkness?

 

The idea for the specter demons was probably almost entirely due to the fact they were essentially 'free' memory/storage wise. We wanted a bit of variety and that's how we got it with little effort. The Lost Soul differences I can't recall, but could be a result of rewritten AI versus ported AI? The Pain Elemental was a redesign, I couldn't say why but we thought it was cool and separated it further, visually, from the Caco. The Arachno was redesigned to be more unique to D64. Since this wasn't a port, there was some leeway, though ID certainly stepped in if we went too far down a path they didn't like. The Mother Demon I remember we had some input into how she acted, AI wise, but beyond that, I really can't recall. We wanted a physical boss, not another wall or Cyberdemon fest, and something that made getting/upgrading the lasergun worthwhile. 

 

The amp visor - probably the least used item in any level I or my friends made, ever. Probably would have been great to sprinkle those around, just to help with the darkness issue, but by the time that issue came to light (badpun), we couldn't touch the levels further. I don't think there was any technical reason, just us not really being fond of it.

 

[Dark Pulse]

2 hours ago, Hyde said:

I can't recall why we didn't focus on multiplayer in D64, particularly after having it on PSX (but the link cable made that a no brainer) - I don't know how well our levels would have played in MP anyway, given the scripting, which might be part/most of the reason?

From what I heard, the general consensus was that split-screen multi-player would "defeat the point" according to the brass, since it was no challenge to see where your opponent was.

 

Then along came Goldeneye, and well, that got proven wrong real quick. :P

 

Scripting would also have been a factor though. Definitely would've needed to know who triggered what and so on in an MP environment. 

 

Don't feel bad about Doom 3 - it's divisive among the community here too. (I also got bored with it.)

[SiFi270]

13 hours ago, Hyde said:

the lasergun

That reminds me, was the name "Unmaker" ever actually used for it during development? And if so, were you aware of its namesake in the Doom Bible?

[Hyde]

8 hours ago, SiFi270 said:

That reminds me, was the name "Unmaker" ever actually used for it during development? And if so, were you aware of its namesake in the Doom Bible?

 

I don't know if we ever gave it a formal name. We probably just called it something generic like 'alien laser' internally. I wasn't aware of its idea in the doom bible either, that's cool. Could have been influenced by that, or a crazy coincidence - can't recall at all.

[Dark Pulse]

Any ideas you guys wanted to do but couldn't due to technical limitations or politics or whoever?

 

And did you guys have just as much trouble telling apart Zombiemen from Shotgun Guys? Whoever's decision that was to make their palettes so similar deserves to be put up on the spinning wheel and have the knife thrower test their luck at their circumcision skills. 

[OniriA]

Very pleasing to read all these nice insights shedding light on this darker iteration of doom.

 

Specifically PSX DooM.

 

Some things I was curious about myself,

 

Was there a reason for putting in Doom 2 monsters in Doom 1 levels, for example a chaingunner and  Pain Elemental in Hangar (aka e1m1)?

 

Also In Final DooM for the PSX, what was the reason for adding Master Levels next to TNT and Plutonia? Since the original Final DooM only consisted of TNT and Plutonia.

 

I'm also curious about the situation of the last map of PSX DooM, Redemption Denied. What was the idea and choice behind this map to serve as the final map instead of the Icon of Sin. What where the teams challenges to incorporate the Icon of Sin, where there different ideas floating around for another boss instead for example?, an edited version of the Icon of Sin perhaps even?

 

I was kind of bummed as to why it wasn't in the Playstation version upon discovering the PC version later on. With the kind of dark atmosphere brooding throughout the game it would have been the ultimate surprise to kick out with.

 

Right now there's a big project going on called  DooM Master Edition by Gerardo and Erick (and some other dudes), that is to incorporate all the missing maps that where cut from the original ps1 game with the actual engine and code. What do you think about this endeavor?

 

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/101161-gec-master-edition-psx-doom-for-the-playstation-31102018-beta-2-released-now-incluiding-nrtfl-levels/

 

Much thanks in advance, and great to have you here.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by OniriA

[wolfmcbeard]

@Hyde Just wanted to chime in with my thanks to you and the team for D64, got a cart a few months ago and I play it a fair bit when I'm thinking of ideas for maps.
There aren't many questions I could ask that haven't been asked already, but I am curious about the save/password system, it still throws me off.

[DefilerPhil47]

@Hyde This is a great thread and its awesome to read about some of the history and dedication behind Doom 64.  I still have my N64 hooked up, ready to play Doom at a moments notice.  Thanks for all you did!

[Hyde]

20 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Any ideas you guys wanted to do but couldn't due to technical limitations or politics or whoever?

 

And did you guys have just as much trouble telling apart Zombiemen from Shotgun Guys? Whoever's decision that was to make their palettes so similar deserves to be put up on the spinning wheel and have the knife thrower test their luck at their circumcision skills. 

 

The sequel? :D  Any limitations, we designed around if code was confident it wasn't feasible, but I don't remember specifics. 

 

Hah, as for the monsters, we didn't have much say but I don't recall that issue. I'm sure if I looked at it now, it'd stand out. And jesus, that is a mental I need to scrub fiercely from my mind now. After using it a bunch of times among friends first, of course.

[Hyde]

17 hours ago, OniriA said:

Was there a reason for putting in Doom 2 monsters in Doom 1 levels, for example a chaingunner and  Pain Elemental in Hangar (aka e1m1)?

 

Also In Final DooM for the PSX, what was the reason for adding Master Levels next to TNT and Plutonia? Since the original Final DooM only consisted of TNT and Plutonia.

 

I'm also curious about the situation of the last map of PSX DooM, Redemption Denied. What was the idea and choice behind this map to serve as the final map instead of the Icon of Sin. What where the teams challenges to incorporate the Icon of Sin, where there different ideas floating around for another boss instead for example?, an edited version of the Icon of Sin perhaps even?

 

Right now there's a big project going on called  DooM Master Edition by Gerardo and Erick (and some other dudes), that is to incorporate all the missing maps that where cut from the original ps1 game with the actual engine and code. What do you think about this endeavor?

 

 

Oooo, that's a good one. I've no idea why we would have mixed up enemies across games. Definitely not a mistake, maybe intentional? Treat the whole product as a blend of both?

 

Final Doom - I'm almost positive it was to increase perceived value of the SKU and get the map count appropriately high. If I recall, we cut a lot of levels due to hardware limitations and other things. All of this plays into the fact the game was a low risk, money maker and would get mileage out of the technical work already done. It sold far better than we thought, mostly in Europe. 

 

Redemption Denied - only thing I can think of is technical - that Wall was too tall to convert. Maybe memory. Performance. Etc. Nothing to do with the boss, everything to do with conversion is my strong guess. I don't think we had ideas for any other boss - we didn't create any new enemy sprites, just variants.

 

Haven't checked out any TC progress lately, but definitely will. Had no idea so much was going on still - it's awesome to see though. Doom on it's own was amazing, but the community it cultured clearly gave it much more staying power. Love hearing about all the work still going on - nothing but respect there.

[Hyde]

16 hours ago, wolfmcbeard said:

@Hyde Just wanted to chime in with my thanks to you and the team for D64, got a cart a few months ago and I play it a fair bit when I'm thinking of ideas for maps.
There aren't many questions I could ask that haven't been asked already, but I am curious about the save/password system, it still throws me off.

 

Thanks! It means a lot that people enjoyed it (and are still enjoying it!). Ah... Passwords remind me of Metroid. Hate them. Particularly when your handwriting was especially bad on that day, and the next day, your password doesn't take. THE WORST. 

 

I'm not particularly sure what you mean by it throwing you off, but if you're referring to why it wasn't just a cart save, my guess would be on the cost increase of the cart the second you added battery saves. These things mattered when you were printing a few hundred thousand copies with potential reprints down the road. Ideal? Heck no - it's antiquated. Cost friendly at the consumers expense/frustration? Yep. Was this the actual reason though? I don't know. Was a password easier to figure out than a save state? Did we intentionally want a password system for reason X or X? Possibly, but cost seems most likely.

 

 

[seed]

@Hyde Sorry if this was asked already, but do you remember why the Nightmare Imps were cut from the final version of Playstation Doom?

 

You have previously said adding this type of monsters was inexpensive.

[wolfmcbeard]

I was more meaning why not use the controller pack (I've actually gotten some sleep so I can articulate my words)

55 minutes ago, Hyde said:

if you're referring to why it wasn't just a cart save, my guess would be on the cost increase of the cart the second you added battery saves. These things mattered when you were printing a few hundred thousand copies with potential reprints down the road.

I recently opened up all my old carts from when I was growing up to clean them and change batteries and it seems a vast majority of didn't use batteries except the Nintendo ones and one other, Goldeneye I think.
I get it's been a while so details and reasons why can be fuzzy or forgotten though and at least there is a save system.

[Dark Pulse]

1 hour ago, Hyde said:

 

Thanks! It means a lot that people enjoyed it (and are still enjoying it!). Ah... Passwords remind me of Metroid. Hate them. Particularly when your handwriting was especially bad on that day, and the next day, your password doesn't take. THE WORST. 

It could be worse. It could be the password system for that NES classic, Wall Street Kid.

 

[wolfmcbeard]

4 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

It could be worse. It could be the password system for that NES classic, Wall Street Kid.

Password systems like that make me grateful for growing up on the N64 xD

[Hyde]

1 hour ago, wolfmcbeard said:

I was more meaning why not use the controller pack (I've actually gotten some sleep so I can articulate my words)

 

 

Ah - Well, I'd think it was because you didn't want to make a game and assume the player had an optional accessory they had to purchase nor did you want 2 ways to save that could conflict (one play, no pak, next play, pak, then you go back to play but you lost your pak, for example). A password takes care of all cases and puts the onus on the player. So does a battery, but again, cost most likely I'd say.

[Hyde]

1 hour ago, seed said:

@Hyde Sorry if this was asked already, but do you remember why the Nightmare Imps were cut from the final version of Playstation Doom?

 

You have previously said adding this type of monsters was inexpensive.

 

If I was to guess, it was because they were very hard to see, or blended poorly with the variety of colored lighting we used? They were blended in a particular way, which means the much larger palette likely affected their visibility. I can't imagine any other reason why, unless it was purely a 'stick to the original monster set' directive that came down. 

[Dark Pulse]

34 minutes ago, Hyde said:

 

If I was to guess, it was because they were very hard to see, or blended poorly with the variety of colored lighting we used? They were blended in a particular way, which means the much larger palette likely affected their visibility. I can't imagine any other reason why, unless it was purely a 'stick to the original monster set' directive that came down. 

Well, isn't the point of them being nightmares a bit hard to see?

 

I'm having no problem using them in the maps I did for the GEC Master Edition, anyway. They don't look that weird or out of place to me.

[Quasar]

As far as the Icon of Sin goes I can state there was almost definitely a memory constraint issue there as well - spawning monsters at runtime in the Jag-based ports is a really bad idea because it increases zone fragmentation severely - this is why Nightmare skill level with respawn is also disabled. There's no way that MAP30 from PC would remain stable for very long on the PSX. Also, with the way VRAM budgeting works for monsters, the number of types of monsters it could have spawned would have to be severely cut-down, and a limit placed on the number that could be active at one time would also have had to be added (which requires scanning the mobj queue, which is expensive in terms of processing time). I'm sure if anybody could ever get ahold of Aaron Seeler, he'd back up this reasoning.

[CoTeCiO]

5 hours ago, wolfmcbeard said:

I was more meaning why not use the controller pack

What do you mean? If you're talking about Doom 64, it can actually use the Controller Pak to save your games. PSX Doom can't.