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ImpieEyez95

Early and unused DOOM 64 Level Designs

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4 hours ago, Hyde said:

 

Oh gosh - honestly, the story wasn't much of an influence on what we created. It was kind of a 3 part setup. Space base/random locations/demonic/hell-ish locales. We decided the theme of most and tried to be diverse in look and feel, but it was pretty loose as far as sticking to lore was concerned. If we did follow an outlined story progression, I definitely don't recall. We really just let our imaginations run wild and challenged each other to come up with new ways to surprise the player visually and gameplay wise.

So I could assume we are travelling between Hellish dimensions created by you guys, couldn't I? I really love Doom64 levels

By the way, I'm making some fan, ugly 3D models of the missing Doom64 monsters along with a few new ones for a future fan-sequel. When they all are done, I will share its sprites for mods and a possibly future Doom64 Community project :)

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@Hyde I have a question about Doom 64's scripting, or specifically its development


Was the Doom 64 team influenced by Hexen's ACS scripting in anyway? what made the team decide to create a proprietary scripting system instead of borrowing and possibly improving ACS?

was it copyright, or maybe just out of respect for the Hexen devs? 

Glad to see you shedding light on D64's development :)

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Sorry, for some reason I can't do anything with a post once I @ someone.

@Hyde, first of all, thanks for all you did.  D64 is my favorite iteration of Doom to this day!  Second:  Ever get an itch to make a new level?

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12 hours ago, Antnee said:

Sorry, for some reason I can't do anything with a post once I @ someone.

@Hyde, first of all, thanks for all you did.  D64 is my favorite iteration of Doom to this day!  Second:  Ever get an itch to make a new level?

@Hyde should lead a community wad ;)

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19 hours ago, Antnee said:

Second:  Ever get an itch to make a new level?

Man, that'd be awesome if he wanted to make some new levels for his old project. A Romero E5 and some new Doom 64 maps from some of their original creators in the same year? Hell yeah.

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On 1/18/2019 at 8:58 PM, Gerardo194 said:

So I could assume we are travelling between Hellish dimensions created by you guys, couldn't I? I really love Doom64 levels

By the way, I'm making some fan, ugly 3D models of the missing Doom64 monsters along with a few new ones for a future fan-sequel. When they all are done, I will share its sprites for mods and a possibly future Doom64 Community project :)

 

Yo uh, gonna need some details on that and I'm all in if you'll let me contribute.

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Hello @Hyde, welcome friend, I have a question, as said @Dark Pulse, we know several aspects that limit the PSX Doom, but what were the limits of Doom 64?. When creating maps.

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On 1/19/2019 at 3:22 AM, Antnee said:

Sorry, for some reason I can't do anything with a post once I @ someone.

@Hyde, first of all, thanks for all you did.  D64 is my favorite iteration of Doom to this day!  Second:  Ever get an itch to make a new level?

 

Glad you enjoyed it! We were pretty confident we were doing the brand proud. We couldn't have been bigger fans ourselves and had been editing for a few years already by then. Soooo many 3am nights just iterating on our own wads, well before we even got the license. It was awesome having that ability to decide the look and gameplay of something others could play. We fell in love, hard. We downloaded hundreds of wads and played them, learned from them, and saw so many cool techniques. The TCs, the megawads, etc. So good.

 

Once in a while, I do get that itch. Maybe someday, when I retire and my kids are in college :) We still reminisce about Doom. There's a reason it still has such a strong community, decades later. 

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3 minutes ago, Erick194 said:

Hello @Hyde, welcome friend, I have a question, as said @Dark Pulse, we know several aspects that limit the PSX Doom, but what were the limits of Doom 64?. When creating maps.

 

Hmm.. I'm sure we had texture limits and monster limits, but as for map limits (size/extents/depths/etc), I don't recall. I can't remember how we'd check if we were nearing any cap either. Maybe when we exported, it'd tell us but I think it was pretty rare to hit a map cap.

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On 1/18/2019 at 3:59 PM, Bushpig2dope said:

Loving the D64 love in this thread. The true Doom 3 ;)
 Oh and @Hyde I thought of a question, were there any scrapped demons in Doom 64? If so what was their design like and what place did they have in the game?

 

I unfortunately cannot recall at all. I don't think so, but it's totally possible. ID would have had to vet any new monster/weapon/etc for sure.

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1 minute ago, Hyde said:

 

Hmm.. I'm sure we had texture limits and monster limits, but as for map limits (size/extents/depths/etc), I don't recall. I can't remember how we'd check if we were nearing any cap either. Maybe when we exported, it'd tell us but I think it was pretty rare to hit a map cap.

From what Kaiser (who reverse-engineered Doom 64 to create the Doom 64 EX port) has said, texture limits are generally not a problem. Apparently the game will kick out any textures that aren't currently visible in the camera view, unlike PSX Doom where they were statically loaded, so you'd have to do some pretty insane texturing to hit the limits I think.

 

That and having 4 MB of RAM also helps for that as well as monster variety. Basically means that unless you go completely crazy, most maps should fit just fine. It's even theoretically possible that once we get custom maps fully working in Doom 64, we could port the PC maps over unaltered (well, as unaltered as possible due to some missing monster types) with relatively little issue. (@Erick194 is making some good progress on figuring out the compression, as I said previously.)

Then again, there's some people in the N64 hacking/homebrew scene who've said it might be possible to get Expansion Pak support in to have Doom 64 use 8 MB of RAM. Then the sky will really be the limit!

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8 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

From what Kaiser (who reverse-engineered Doom 64 to create the Doom 64 EX port) has said, texture limits are generally not a problem. Apparently the game will kick out any textures that aren't currently visible in the camera view, unlike PSX Doom where they were statically loaded, so you'd have to do some pretty insane texturing to hit the limits I think.

A few days ago I tested several maps of the community chest 64 , with the n64 rom, and several maps were not loaded, there were also textures as if they were altered and the buttons disappeared.

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2 minutes ago, Erick194 said:

A few days ago I tested several maps of the community chest 64 , with the n64 rom, and several maps were not loaded, there were also textures as if they were altered and the buttons disappeared.

Well if they're limit-removing that will probably put a kibosh on it. I'm talking more like vanilla limits.

 

Then again, I think @Kaiser would also have an idea of those limits.

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2 minutes ago, Erick194 said:

This are screenshots of MAP06 from @hardcore_gamer. I omitted the new textures.

wkq4t4gmj7cqbcazg.jpg

o7pnk22wtci1qtfzg.jpg

 

I mean, obviously if they made new textures, nothing we can do about that for the actual Doom 64 ROM without adding them to the ROM (and possibly expanding the ROM itself).

 

PS: Why such an old build of Mupen64? Mupen64Plus is at like 2.5. (It's normally commandline, but it also exists as a RetroArch core.) Definitely doesn't hurt to have your tests for the actual game running on a more accurate emulator where possible (until we can get the project to the point where people with Everdrives and actual hardware can do testing, anyway).

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1 minute ago, Dark Pulse said:

I mean, obviously if they made new textures, nothing we can do about that for the actual Doom 64 ROM without adding them to the ROM (and possibly expanding the ROM itself).

The test ROM is extended to 32Mb, and the main Wad is uncompressed at all.

 

3 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

PS: Why such an old build of Mupen64? Mupen64Plus is at like 2.5. (It's normally commandline, but it also exists as a RetroArch core.) Definitely doesn't hurt to have your tests for the actual game running on a more accurate emulator where possible (until we can get the project to the point where people with Everdrives and actual hardware can do testing, anyway).

I have to try that emulator. =)

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8 hours ago, Hyde said:

in Doom64, "TEK" (short for tekno) in Map 17 by Dan

I cannot unsee that now
dEVBGHJ.png

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10 hours ago, Hyde said:

There's a few others, like Randy's initials in The Marshes (which, The 'Marshes' was a soft reference to his girlfriend, now wife, Marsha)

Ha, never thought about that!

 

BTW, why in this map the teleport-trap doesn't do anything with Cyberdemon? I mean, in first case you think "I should entrap that Cybbie and crush him by using this trap", but no... 

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The big teleporters in that level all have the "block monsters" flag, so the cyberdemon cannot use them.

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2 hours ago, Gez said:

The big teleporters in that level all have the "block monsters" flag, so the cyberdemon cannot use them.

 

That's not answer to my question, sorry. I know about "block monsters" flag, I don't get why this created against the player, not the boss.

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3 hours ago, Đeⓧiaz said:

BTW, why in this map the teleport-trap doesn't do anything with Cyberdemon? I mean, in first case you think "I should entrap that Cybbie and crush him by using this trap", but no... 

Probably because that would make the fight against it a bit of a joke.

 

Then again, Tim didn't do that level - Randy Estrella did, IIRC (hence the RE initials and reference to his girlfriend/wife), so that's just a guess.

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17 hours ago, Hyde said:

 

Doom PSX was a blast to port and add a few levels into. We were so stoked we got the opportunity to do that.

Final Doom was purely a quick money thing. I ported all the levels myself while work was spinning up on Doom64. I remember it sold particularly well in Europe but not so much in the US.

 

I'm pretty sure we cut levels for these reasons -

 

--Outright too big to begin with, for memory reasons. Wad size combined with texture diversity. If something was beyond reducing and compromising the original look/feel, it was likely cut instead of butchered.

--Height limitations, due to texture tiling, as you pointed out. We would have to make fake sectors just to bring floors/ceilings together to exceed that single-wall 256 limit if memory serves. That was a lot of the editing right there, along with lighting.

--Likely another reason I can't recall, but there was always a reason. Never dartboarded.

 

As for the monster flags - I can't recall at all. Likely because some monsters probably just looked odd 'spectred'. The ones that were, were more the dummy, all flesh/no armor monsters. As for why any lingered - definitely don't recall. Might have been a mistake the flags were set incorrectly and simply never caught.

 

Also, I think I've seen it discussed elsewhere in the past and I think the guesses were wrong or partly right so here's a tidbit: The secret lettering on the map in Club Doom are the LDs first name initials along with some coworkers at the time. Will, Danny, Tim, John, Randy, Steve. We snuck that in and were so afraid we might get caught! The tekno track was done by Dan Lewis. There's a few others, like Randy's initials in The Marshes (which, The 'Marshes' was a soft reference to his girlfriend, now wife, Marsha), and in Doom64, "TEK" (short for tekno) in Map 17 by Dan. I snuck "T H" into the outdoor puzzle floor in The Mansion by tagging linedefs. I can't recall the other letterings meaning in there (W M?). There may be more...

 

Interesting! I infer from this that you made The Mansion. The only other specific PSX Doom author info that I knew of was Estrella's credit for The Marshes. Do you recall who did the other maps (Twilight Descends, Threshold of Pain, Redemption Denied, Club Doom)?

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My bet for Club Doom is that it was Danny Lewis (we know he did the music for it at least). Then again, could also be Randy Estrella as it was nothing but Revenants for enemies, and he went on record years ago with his love of the Revenant.

 

Oh, another question for Tim he can't probably answer: We discovered one of the samples in Aubrey Hodges' music was someone saying "Danny won. Danny won, hey" with what sounds like a ping-pong game. Do you know who said that and who really won that game? (Like, did Danny win a set or a match?) 

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Really difficult to know, we think it says "Tell me why". But it is curious to know that Tim will respond.

 

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4 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

My bet for Club Doom is that it was Danny Lewis (we know he did the music for it at least). Then again, could also be Randy Estrella as it was nothing but Revenants for enemies, and he went on record years ago with his love of the Revenant.

 

Oh, another question for Tim he can't probably answer: We discovered one of the samples in Aubrey Hodges' music was someone saying "Danny won. Danny won, hey" with what sounds like a ping-pong game. Do you know who said that and who really won that game? (Like, did Danny win a set or a match?) 

 

Randy did Club Doom, but we all chipped in on feedback as he was creating it.

 

As to the sound bite, I don't recall at all. For sure, there were lots of random bets going around the office, with very interesting wagers! I wouldn't be surprised if it was something along those lines, but Aubrey would know (that vocal clip sounds like Orpheus, not Aubrey). I'll ping Dan and see if he recalls. In the video, there's a stutter after what sounds like "Danny" (more like Daneh'nay) so I'm not entirely sure what it actually says... Interesting though! Aubrey was great at making/distorting random sounds/things to get the feel he wanted. 

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6 hours ago, kmxexii said:

 

Interesting! I infer from this that you made The Mansion. The only other specific PSX Doom author info that I knew of was Estrella's credit for The Marshes. Do you recall who did the other maps (Twilight Descends, Threshold of Pain, Redemption Denied, Club Doom)?

 

So I looked at videos of those levels, and I cannot recall them at all. Definitely not mine (lots of plain walls/floors, which I couldn't stand). Hmm... No clue. Likely they were swapped in to make level count more inline with the originals. But as to their origin... got me.

 

[edit] - they could be Harry's levels? 

 

On that topic, as I was bouncing between vids - I noticed 'Tower of Babel' is the basis for Tuff.wad (if there's differences, it was definitely Randy, because he loved gauntlet type levels - just toss more and more at you), so I've got to correct that earlier statement. 

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@Hyde If you indeed made The Mansion, can we have a picture of you to put on a dartboard or something for that goddamn teleporter maze for the red skull key? Like I got that the little lights marked start and end, but past that it was a total trial and error deal, and back in the day before a full-scale internet to figure things out, that was a good few minutes on the first playthrough right there. :)

 

I'm not 100% sure if even looking at it in the automap will show you the way - can't remember right now.

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