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ImpieEyez95

Early and unused DOOM 64 Level Designs

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2 minutes ago, Sgt Nate V said:

I did that on my last WMD playthrough on EX and it worked perfectly.

Then yep, that's the only way to avoid the suffering.

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Wow, it sounds like Doom 64 packed a ton of hidden content that we probably missed back in the day. I had no idea that certain levels were skipped during play and had to be unlocked.

 

Playing D64 gives you a great deal of respect for the deviousness of the designers. It would be interesting to see rhese maps recreated in GEC Master Doom in some form. The scripting would have to go and this would require a certain genius to still make the map work in the manner intended by the D64 team. This in itself is a tribute to the original game: Doom 64 is a powerhouse of intelligent design. I honestly think a reduction in scripting would improve gameplay a bit. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, MajorRawne said:

Wow, it sounds like Doom 64 packed a ton of hidden content that we probably missed back in the day. I had no idea that certain levels were skipped during play and had to be unlocked.

 

Playing D64 gives you a great deal of respect for the deviousness of the designers. It would be interesting to see rhese maps recreated in GEC Master Doom in some form. The scripting would have to go and this would require a certain genius to still make the map work in the manner intended by the D64 team. This in itself is a tribute to the original game: Doom 64 is a powerhouse of intelligent design. I honestly think a reduction in scripting would improve gameplay a bit. 

Impossible with PSX Doom, because we don't have access to macros/scripting on that platform. I mean, you could do a pale imitation of the colors, but that's about it. And some effects wouldn't be replicatable at all (that phased lighting in the penultimate room of MAP01, security cameras, etc.) At best it'd be a pale imitation, basically a mishmash of the "Doom 64 in Doom II" mod and Kaiser's old Doomsday-powered "Doom 64: The Absolution" TC - sorta there, but not quite, and anything new (Unmaker, Final Boss, macros, etc.) that's not in PSX Doom, forget it. The monster variety in most Doom 64 maps is way higher, too, due to the N64's 4 MB of RAM (can go up to 8 MB, but Doom 64 came out before that addon's release), so the maps would be seriously and severely compromised, just like the maps we're porting to the GEC project from PC are.

 

What I *WOULD* like to do, is get the D64 engine loading custom maps, then do a special enhanced version of the GEC Project, porting all the console/original maps plus our recreations, back into N64 Doom. Erick has been quietly working on that; last I knew he got custom maps in, but it was imperfect, because there's an unknown form of compression on the map, texture, and demo formats. I actually managed to reach out to John Carmack (who actually replied!) but he didn't know how the compression worked; nobody has been able to reach Aaron Seeler to see if he remembers or knows, either. (And no, Hyde doesn't know it - he wasn't a coder and if he remembered, I'm fairly sure he would've said how.) Also, we can't turn to Kaiser's Doom 64 EX code for help - he knows how to decompress the data, but compression was obviously never done in the game cart; the data was put on already compressed, and it's not as simple as "do the same steps backwards."

 

Erick has gotten it partially working, but it's not as perfect as the original compression - it wastes approximately 500K per 32 maps compared to the original. That's not too much of a problem when we can easily expand the ROM to fit more stuff - and we'd need to if we wanted to do something like that, especially if we're thinking about adding recreations of the cut monster types. Though that in and of itself would possibly (probably?) require hacking in Memory Pak support to double the N64's RAM to 8 MB, as well. We've gotten in touch with a couple of Homebrew N64 enthusiasts with actual hardware and Everdrive-style flash carts as well, so it will actually have a lot more hardware testing than the GEC Master Edition for PSX in all likelihood.

 

Bigger problem would be the textures, since of course, D64 has very different texture themes. Maps would either need to be retextured, or we'd need to import the originals (and they have the same compression as the maps), and even in those cases we'd generally be limited to a small degree - most (but not all) textures in Doom 64 are 64x64 like flats, whereas the PSX version of the game had them in 16, 64, and 128-wide flavors. (They were always 128 high.) N64 allows you to mirror it on either or both axes for free though, so there is actually some really good versatility with the textures you can't get in PSX Doom.

 

Either way, I'm hoping that eventually we can get that running on the N64 version. I'd love to go back to these maps and add some scripted stuff and make the lighting even more moody and atmospheric.

Edited by Dark Pulse

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To clarify from the last page:

 

In Doom 64 EX the Features menu is still there and still must be unlocked by beating Hectic. Once you beat it one time, it stays unlocked via config file, unlike in the original where it re-locks itself upon the console being reset. There are also a couple new features exclusive to EX.

 

Jumping was never an unlock in the original or EX. That unlock is from the old Absolution TC if memory serves me right. I see confusion often expecting jump as a reward in EX.

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1 hour ago, Nevander said:

To clarify from the last page:

 

In Doom 64 EX the Features menu is still there and still must be unlocked by beating Hectic. Once you beat it one time, it stays unlocked via config file, unlike in the original where it re-locks itself upon the console being reset. There are also a couple new features exclusive to EX.

 

Jumping was never an unlock in the original or EX. That unlock is from the old Absolution TC if memory serves me right. I see confusion often expecting jump as a reward in EX.

 

Updated my reviews to reflect this. Thank you for the clarifying information! 

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On 4/24/2019 at 1:16 PM, Dark Pulse said:

What I *WOULD* like to do, is get the D64 engine loading custom maps, then do a special enhanced version of the GEC Project, porting all the console/original maps plus our recreations, back into N64 Doom.

That would be awesome! Actually someone ported E1M1 to Doom 64EX and it looked fantastic! I'd love to see the original Doom mapset ported to Doom 64. I tried to port E1M2 once but I'm not very good when it comes to retexturing maps and I wasn't very happy with the results.

 

I'd like to see the originals, though, not the dumbed down Jaguar maps. In fact, whenever modding starts for Doom 64 and the limitations start to appear, it might be possible to port far more architecturally authentic versions of the maps than the ones currently being done for the PSX.

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1 hour ago, CoTeCiO said:

That would be awesome! Actually someone ported E1M1 to Doom 64EX and it looked fantastic! I'd love to see the original Doom mapset ported to Doom 64. I tried to port E1M2 once but I'm not very good when it comes to retexturing maps and I wasn't very happy with the results.

 

I'd like to see the originals, though, not the dumbed down Jaguar maps. In fact, whenever modding starts for Doom 64 and the limitations start to appear, it might be possible to port far more architecturally authentic versions of the maps than the ones currently being done for the PSX.

Should theoretically be possible, since there is the 64Doom port that, obviously, is a direct port of the PC original to the N64, albeit it's running entirely in software and not an accelerated renderer like Doom 64 does.

 

Essentially all I'd need to get going would be for Erick to provide me with a converter from PSX->N64 map format, and (if we go with as you suggest) a converted from PC->N64 map format. From there it'd be a matter of if we're going to retexture the entire maps, or if we're going to try to import the PC textures into Doom 64 as well.

 

I know Erick has been working on it on and off, since I view that as a future project, but well, my work ends in two months or so and then I'm off until September, so I'd really like something to do over the summer to be honest. :P

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20 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Should theoretically be possible, since there is the 64Doom port that, obviously, is a direct port of the PC original to the N64, albeit it's running entirely in software and not an accelerated renderer like Doom 64 does.

 

Essentially all I'd need to get going would be for Erick to provide me with a converter from PSX->N64 map format, and (if we go with as you suggest) a converted from PC->N64 map format. From there it'd be a matter of if we're going to retexture the entire maps, or if we're going to try to import the PC textures into Doom 64 as well.

It would be interesting to see if Doom 64 EX maps can be converted into native Doom 64. That way, the whole thing could be done for the PC, and then available for the console as well.

 

I think texture size in Doom 64 is limited to certain amount of pixels, although I'm not sure about that. All textures are either 64x64, 32x128 or 16x128, but none bigger than that, and of course, no TEXTURE# or PNAMES. There are some relatively big textures in vanilla like BROVINE2 that's 256x128 and I'm wondering if they could be ported as well, otherwise some compromises would have to be made.

 

I'd like to see the original mapset in Doom 64 style, but your idea of porting the textures as well sounds intriguing. Then comes the question of porting the sprites as well, what to do with the music, or the sounds? If Erick can iron out enough off the Doom 64 engine, we could potentially port Doom in it's entirety to the Nintendo 64 but using acceleration, unlike 64Doom. That sounds like a pretty interesting idea.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, CoTeCiO said:

It would be interesting to see if Doom 64 EX maps can be converted into native Doom 64. That way, the whole thing could be done for the PC, and then available for the console as well.

 

I think texture size in Doom 64 is limited to certain amount of pixels, although I'm not sure about that. All textures are either 64x64, 32x128 or 16x128, but none bigger than that, and of course, no TEXTURE# or PNAMES. There are some relatively big textures in vanilla like BROVINE2 that's 256x128 and I'm wondering if they could be ported as well, otherwise some compromises would have to be made.

 

I'd like to see the original mapset in Doom 64 style, but your idea of porting the textures as well sounds intriguing. Then comes the question of porting the sprites as well, what to do with the music, or the sounds? If Erick can iron out enough off the Doom 64 engine, we could potentially port Doom in it's entirety to the Nintendo 64 but using acceleration, unlike 64Doom. That sounds like a pretty interesting idea.

Sprites would probably be a pass, but I would like to have Shotgun Guys and Troopers be more identifiable and different (Doom 64 just doesn't differentiate them nearly as much - I know they wanted to save ROM space which is fine, but they could've done a better job even just going off a palette swap). We'd need to do a little replacing in some of the maps though; namely, Revenants and Chaingunners are gone, so unless replacements got made and added to the ROM, they'd be out.

 

Sounds are the same as PSX. Like, literally. They were reused.

 

Music is a good question, but I know Erick was also figuring out the sound format there as well.

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Just now, Dark Pulse said:

Sprites would probably be a pass, but I would like to have Shotgun Guys and Troopers be more identifiable and different (Doom 64 just doesn't differentiate them nearly as much - I know they wanted to save ROM space which is fine, but they could've done a better job even just going off a palette swap). We'd need to do a little replacing in some of the maps though; namely, Revenants and Chaingunners are gone, so unless replacements got made and added to the ROM, they'd be out.

 

Sounds are the same as PSX. Like, literally. They were reused.

 

Music is a good question, but I know Erick was also figuring out the sound format there as well.

I modified the shotgun guy palette to make him wear black clothing and it works pretty well, although it makes him harder to see.

 

I mean if you're doing PSX Doom in Doom 64 reusing the sounds would be fine, but doing Vanilla? I know a lot of people prefer the PSX sounds, but it would be more authentic.

 

Would it be possible to port vanilla music to Doom 64? Generally music in Doom 64 uses two or three samples, but vanilla music has many instruments, including a full drum kit. It would be an interesting challenge to try to make it work.

 

About the monsters, again, for Doom 1 maps that's no problem (unless you want to include the Doom 2 monsters they put in the PSX version), except for the Spider Mastermind, which could be replaced with the Mother Demon, although I don't know if Dis would work with that monster in place.

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2 minutes ago, CoTeCiO said:

Would it be possible to port vanilla music to Doom 64? Generally music in Doom 64 uses two or three samples, but vanilla music has many instruments, including a full drum kit. It would be an interesting challenge to try to make it work.

You'd need a new soundfont entirely for porting the PC music.

 

3 minutes ago, CoTeCiO said:

About the monsters, again, for Doom 1 maps that's no problem (unless you want to include the Doom 2 monsters they put in the PSX version), except for the Spider Mastermind, which could be replaced with the Mother Demon, although I don't know if Dis would work with that monster in place.

It should, although I'd have to change it up a bit to account for the capabilities she has. It'd make the final battle a lot more of a BATTLE than Dis was in the original PC version, that's for sure.

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Just now, Dark Pulse said:

You'd need a new soundfont entirely for porting the PC music.

 

It should, although I'd have to change it up a bit to account for the capabilities she has. It'd make the final battle a lot more of a BATTLE than Dis was in the original PC version, that's for sure.

Of course, but the Nintendo 64 doesn't use soundfonts per se. It takes a lot more samples to do it than the ones Doom 64 comes with, even the credits and intermission music is done with sample pieces taken from the PSX Redbook audio and not individual components. Maybe there's a way to add more audio slots to the ROM, otherwise I guess we're outta luck.

 

Yeah, you'd have to change quite a bit to make it work. At least it's not going to take just a couple BFG blasts to end the fight. It's ridiculous, if the RNG is in your favor you could kill her with one BFG shot!

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, CoTeCiO said:

Of course, but the Nintendo 64 doesn't use soundfonts per se. It takes a lot more samples to do it than the ones Doom 64 comes with, even the credits and intermission music is done with sample pieces taken from the PSX Redbook audio and not individual components. Maybe there's a way to add more audio slots to the ROM, otherwise I guess we're outta luck.

I say "soundfont" but yes, that's basically what I meant. We'd need to implement essentially a regular MIDI set of sounds in to even remotely allow for the original PC compositions, and frankly, that's not what I'm interested in - I'm more interested in a D64-style reimagining of the levels, a "What if they were originally made for this platform" deal.

 

So while I'd be fine with adding in whatever samples are on the PSX that are not on the N64 version, I'm really not interested in making a 1:1 clone of what the PC levels were. 64Doom already does that for the most part, and the N64 is generally powerful enough to run that entirely in software. Someone could simply add a hardware renderer to that if they wanted that; I mean, the project is open-source. I see no real point in modding Doom 64 to do the same thing; that's reinventing the wheel to me, IMO.

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Yeah, straight ports are boring, reimagining is where the fun comes from. Familiar but also new and exciting should be the goal, in the same way that I felt when playing PC Doom after years of PSX Doom; the familiar yet bigger and very different PC levels of Ultimate Doom were so much fun to explore. I'd like to go through that again with familiar levels in the D64 engine, with all the scripting and level transforming and so on, all new tricks to learn.

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Just now, Dark Pulse said:

I'm more interested in a D64-style reimagining of the levels, a "What if they were originally made for this platform" deal.

This is something I'd like to see too. As I mentioned before, someone made E1M1 in Doom 64EX and it worked really well. I'd love to see the rest of the game done in that fashion. The hell maps with the gothic-influenced texturing of D64 would look great! Mt. Erebus, but a lot darker... Man, I can imagine that!

 

Just now, Devalaous said:

I'd like to go through that again with familiar levels in the D64 engine, with all the scripting and level transforming and so on, all new tricks to learn.

Whoever embarks in porting the maps should be careful with that, though. I don't want another Knee Deep in ZDoom. I mean, a couple extra things here and here would be fine, like PSX, but adding entirely new areas to the maps just for the sake of doing so and abuse macros, I don't know... A similar problem happened to a couple of maps in Doom 64 for Doom II, and something similar bothers me with Andrew Hulshult's IDKFA, too much stuff that wasn't present in the original songs that frankly don't add anything to the originals.

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Posted (edited)

Well, as I've said before, if Erick can get me a PSX->N64 and PC->N64 map converter, I'd go for it. I mean, I think the N64 is powerful enough to handle the PC's geometry, so I'd go for those versions as opposed to the cut-down PSX ones, basically, but I'd want to blend in plenty of elements from the PSX version too (I mean, our project's gotta be good for something besides the PSX.)

 

But yeah, I'm not going to hugely go reinventing the maps to do tons of macro abuse and whatever. There's accentuating, and there's just plain overdoing it.

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I found this early PSX Doom beta preview in GamePro a few days ago, and I'm curious what level is pictured here.

 

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5 hours ago, Quasar said:

I found this early PSX Doom beta preview in GamePro a few days ago, and I'm curious what level is pictured here.

 

 

A little probed of why they skipped the Plant map by sending you from Hangar to MAP03 as seen on the small intermission

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Oh boy, here we go again. Never thought that's even possible AFTER this

 

Do you think it's a totally new custom map like "The Marshes"? Or it's ported and rejected like Map14-Homage?

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The automap shot is command control, the intermission shot shows "Hangar completed, entering Toxic Refinery". The unknown level seems to be mostly flat, it uses the episode 1 sky, walls are the Doom 2 stucco texture, there's what looks to be a five-pointed star made out of blood flat on the ground.

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On 5/30/2019 at 8:08 AM, Đeⓧiaz said:

Do you think it's a totally new custom map like "The Marshes"? Or it's ported and rejected like Map14-Homage?


On a picture, looks like this is very early stuff, even not a full map but a couple of unfinished rooms, like a playground for testers.

In another case, this may well be a custom PC map ported to PSX, but never included. Also on screenshot with the revenant, the pit is on the left.

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