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Finnthemapmaker

I need mapping advice

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16 hours ago, Kappes Buur said:

Not to be rude , but i said mapping advice. As how to make good and fun maps , not engine features 101.  After all it says i need mapping advice not How do i  use this certain format's features. Good maps can be made with any Doom engine so there really isn't specific advice for mapping. As for the things you linked me , the are just lists with commands.

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46 minutes ago, Finnthemapmaker said:

Not to be rude , but i said mapping advice. As how to make good and fun maps , not engine features 101.  After all it says i need mapping advice not How do i  use this certain format's features. Good maps can be made with any Doom engine so there really isn't specific advice for mapping. As for the things you linked me , the are just lists with commands.

But you weren't clear from the start, so person assumed that you need technical side of mapping stuff. Without technical side of mapping, you won't able to create good looking maps. 

Anyway, study your favourite mapsets, open up in builder and check how they do stuff, try replicate those design ideas with your own touch.
Ask for criticism after you done with map, privately or not. There will be always plenty space of improvements and with each map you'll improve more and more.

Also check these two articles, useful if you're new or not:
https://www.dfdoom.com/staying-motivated-as-a-doom-mapper/

https://www.dfdoom.com/tips-for-making-an-engaging-doom-map/

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Kappes spends a clearly not inconsiderable amount of time compiling a selection of resources for you, the decent thing would have been to say "thank you", even if it wasn't what you were after. It was your fault for writing an unclear OP, not Kappes' for misunderstanding you.

 

On topic, making good maps is an art, not a science. There isn't a rule book. 

 

The basic suggestion is to find maps that you personally like and really look long and hard at what it is about them you like. Open them up in Doom Builder and study them. That should start to point you towards the specific elements of a Doom map you like.

 

Edit: Hah, ninjad by Misty!

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2 hours ago, Finnthemapmaker said:

mapping advice. As how to make good and fun maps

What constitutes a "fun map" is subject to the eye of the beholder. Mapping isn't a popularity contest, so build maps with gameplay that you think is fun, and make sure that whatever you "produce" works reliably.

 

Contrary to what Bauul said, mapping isn't exclusively art, because a map is also always a creation that inevitably follows certain rules and principles, and those things vary greatly with the format you use, or the sourceport you're aiming to map for (in case you need the specific behaviour of that port, or certain features). With that being said, Kappes' links are something you should be looking into before you commit to a bigger project, because nothing's worse than starting a map and realizing halfway that what you were looking to accomplish is not possible with the format you may have chosen (arbitrarily).

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3 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Contrary to what Bauul said, mapping isn't exclusively art, because a map is also always a creation that inevitably follows certain rules and principles

 

I might argue just because something follows certain rules and principles doesn't mean it isn't art, as by that logic most art wouldn't be art either. :D  I simply meant there isn't a single, "correct" way to make a map.  Yes there are plenty of guiding principles that will help make a map that an increased proportion of people will consider good, but for every rule there'll be examples where those rules are broken and a map still is positively received.  

 

It's not dissimilar to say oil-painting: there are general rules that you can follow when painting in oil that will help you create something an increased proportion of people will like, but you don't have to follow them: if you paint using a leaf blower, that's also cool. 

 

Now I completely appreciate saying "do whatever you want!" isn't necessarily useful advice for a new mapper.  That's why learning from what you like is decent plan.  I more meant you don't have to follow certain rules to make a good map.  As an example, for all we know, Finnthemapmaker's favorite ever map might be The Given.  If that's what he considers good, then most of the accepted rules for Doom maps fly out the window.   

 

Although that then invites an even more difficult question to answer: do you want to make what you like, or what everyone else likes?  And that's been a philosophical question ever since Homer wrote The Odyssey 2: Odysseus Strikes Back and included a dance number.

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Fun is subjective, but approaching objectivity, here's some of my advice:

  • Give the player the opportunity to cut loose once in a while with no concern for health or ammo, but make it something to be earned or achieved, not randomly slapped into the middle of the map.
  • Give the player means to use their own skill to achieve different experiences. Maybe a platforming path can save time for a skilled player in reaching the next objective, bypassing a series of switch-activated doors. Multiple ways to reach an objective.
  • Give the player new experiences. Use your imagination, or translate concepts from other games, or even films and books. This can go back to the second bullet point. Perhaps have the player be able to go through a gauntlet early in the level to get a key that opens no doors, but activates a crushing press to kill a boss instead of having a tough battle.
  • Make maps sensible, not classic Id-sanity and schizophrenic nightmares of geometry. Making a starbase or a lab? Make rooms that seem to serve specific functions, and link them sensibly. No military facility would be a linear corridor running through a series of large, empty rooms.
  • Look at other people's maps for concept ideas. Instead of a long, plain wall, maybe a series of inset computer panels? A see-through mesh? Simulated damage? Cracks in the floor, holes in the ceiling, busted doors that have to be circumvented through various means?
  • Think of your map like spaghetti and meatballs. Your chunky gameplay sections being the meatballs, and the spaghetti being the halls and adjacent areas linking them together. A map that's all meatballs is as bad as a map that's all spaghetti.

Just keep in mind what game or version you're working with. You can't go all out on a map made for vanilla DooM, with 200-sector, voxel-level details for damaged walls, doors, and floors, as DooM will choke on it and crash in most cases, but don't do a disservice to the player with a series of 64 corridors separated by man doors in STARTAN.

For non-DooM games, think in three dimensions! Give the player a reason to look up and down, beyond shooting enemies. Provide rewards for curious and attentive players. When I made Quake II maps, I tried to make multiple levels (in terms of height) for combat. Rooftops, street level, sewers, for example. Making an adventure map? Let the player's actions affect the map, physically, be it demolishing a pathway that enemies could use to attack the player, or clearing a hallway of debris using scripted explosions to hide shifting the debris brushes outside of the playable area.

 

For the love of God, don't just abuse the player for fifteen minutes, then throw invulnerability, a BFG, and a mountain of cell packs at them to fight ten cyberdemons.

 

Also, make your map first, make sure it plays properly, then go to town prettying it up with a CONSISTENT level of detail, if you can. Don't put all of your eggs into the entryway, with light gradations, sparking consoles, smoke, fire, exposed wiring, dead bodies, and then dull fullbright hallways immediately outside.

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Here is my advice to add to what's been said.

  • Make what you like. Don't worry as much about what other people will think of your map while you're making it. Do try to do a good job while you're mapping, but don't obsess over what other players MIGHT think to the point that it ruins your creativity.
    • Unless your preferred style is extremely ultra niche (mandatory SR50 platforming on 16 unit wide walkways over inescapable pits while having to chainsaw through demons), then you'll probably find a number of people who will like it, too. The key here is that if you enjoy the map you're making, you'll be more likely to enjoy making it, finishing it, and testing it.
      • For example, if you prefer puzzle maps, but decide that you're going to make a slaughter map because that's what you think people want to play, you'll probably not have very much fun making it, and so you won't like playtesting it, assuming you even see it through to completion.
  • Plan out what you want to make. Some people have success just sitting down and making a bunch of stuff and then connecting it. Personally, I suggest you at least have a general sketch so you know what you want to do. You don't have to be a slave to it, but the planning will help. Chances are, if your map seems well thought out, people will be more likely to enjoy it.
  • Once you get feedback, don't ignore it. If it's blatantly abusive feedback that doesn't offer anything constructive (for example, "Dude, you suck a mapping, I would rather rip off my fingernails than play another map by you, just stop and go knit a sweater"), that's a different story--ignore that. But if the feedback is genuine and seeks to offer real advice (for example, "the steps are too high and narrow for the demons to go down, so change them to imps"), look at it and try to incorporate the changes as best you can. Don't assume you have to do everything everyone tells you, but don't just ignore it, particularly if you don't necessarily agree with it or like it.

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