Project Proposal - Ultimate Doom: By The Map

[THMG]

1 minute ago, Dark Pulse said:

 

Well you said you wanted Deimos Lab in your original post. Phobos Lab is "taken" in the sense that someone else is mapping for it, but as I said in my initial post, there is no "only one mapper can ever have this map" rule, so if you want a stab at Phobos Lab, I will put you down for that as #2 and then it will come down to "who made the better map" as decided by feedback and testing.

 

That said, Deimos Lab has nobody on it at all, and it will give you slightly more choice in your pickup/monster placement. (I'll be updating the main post with all that soon.)

 

I'll put you down for Deimos Lab when I update, unless you actually did mean you wanted Phobos Lab. If so, let me know. :P

No, I want to do Deimos Lab, sorry for the confusion.

[Dark Pulse]

Just now, THMG said:

No, I want to do Deimos Lab, sorry for the confusion.

Roger that then! Thanks for the clarification, I'll add you soon.

 

If there's another E2 Map, it actually will be giving E1 a race in terms of maps planned for. :)

[Test Tickle]

Once i'm done with another thing, put me on Warrens.

[Dark Pulse]

2 minutes ago, pc234 said:

Once i'm done with another thing, put me on Warrens.

E3 closes in as well!

 

It'll be interesting to see how Warrens is handled, given it's literally just a skull in a cliffside. That and you're no longer relying on "Wait, I've been here before..." unlike the original Warrens :)

[LordEntr0py]

Ha, I had vague ideas about implementing warrens with a fake-out nod to whatever E3M1 looks like, then *drastically* altering the surroundings at the first interaction. Raise the skybox-ceiling, and there's the cliffside skull.

 

E2M1 is coming along nicely. Going for atmosphere, and I'm quite pleased with the start so far, given that I'm working from this:

 

[KVELLER]

I also think that DOOM.wad should be used for this. Using Doom 2 resources feels backwards IMO.

[Dark Pulse]

10 hours ago, LordEntr0py said:

Ha, I had vague ideas about implementing warrens with a fake-out nod to whatever E3M1 looks like, then *drastically* altering the surroundings at the first interaction. Raise the skybox-ceiling, and there's the cliffside skull.

 

E2M1 is coming along nicely. Going for atmosphere, and I'm quite pleased with the start so far, given that I'm working from this:

 

The friendliest martian dildo you'll ever meet. Pre-censored to protect the kiddies!

 

2 hours ago, KVELLER said:

I also think that DOOM.wad should be used for this. Using Doom 2 resources feels backwards IMO.

I've put up a poll, so if anyone there wants to go ahead and vote in there, I'll see how it goes by.

[Jaws In Space]

@Dark Pulse Are you contributing a map to your own project. I don't see you listed in the op as making one. This project seems to be starting off on a really bad foot to me, the project page has been up for a week now & you are still debating over which IWAD you will be using. Perhaps it would be better for you to iron out the rules & show us what kind of maps you are looking for by giving us an example that you have made before having people sign up to your project.

[Dark Pulse]

8 minutes ago, Jaws In Space said:

@Dark Pulse Are you contributing a map to your own project. I don't see you listed in the op as making one. This project seems to be starting off on a really bad foot to me, the project page has been up for a week now & are still debating over which IWAD you will be using. Perhaps it would be better for you to iron out the rules & show up what kind of maps you are looking for by giving us an example that you have made before having people sign up to your project.

I've just put up a poll to hopefully iron out the IWAD. It seems I've underestimated the number of people who feel it should be an Ultimate Doom project, IWAD and all, as opposed to simply "Ultimate Doom in feel." Whatever is decided there is what I'll go with, and currently Ultimate Doom is winning by a nearly 2:1 margin at the time of this post.

 

As for me mapping, my work generally keeps me fairly busy, and will through June. I might take a map or two on after then, but I don't want to commit to something that would require a good bit of time to do when I can barely commit the time to all the other non-Doom stuff that I do as well for the next several months.

[mattjoes]

Great idea for a WAD! I had the same idea a while back and did some basic work on a map that resembled automap Slough of Despair. Don't know where I put it though.

[Dark Pulse]

3 hours ago, mattjoes said:

Great idea for a WAD! I had the same idea a while back and did some basic work on a map that resembled automap Slough of Despair. Don't know where I put it though.

If you find it and are interested, holler and I'll put you down for it. :) 

[THMG]

After (rightfully) being told that my initial concept is basic, I'm working as hard as my job and school will let me on making a map that isn't the simplest possible way to interpret "a plus with a tower in the center." Glad we're doing GZDoom UDMF, though, as even though I've been shifted into the "use the ultimate doom .wad" camp, I still think that the truthfulness to the intermission screen concept will be nothing but helped by GZDoom's features.

 

Also, since this is "inspired" by Ultimate Doom as it is, should we aim for pistol starts, or should we expect complete runthroughs of entire episodes?

Edited February 27, 2019 by THMG : added question

[Dark Pulse]

27 minutes ago, THMG said:

After (rightfully) being told that my initial concept is basic, I'm working as hard as my job and school will let me on making a map that isn't the simplest possible way to interpret "a plus with a tower in the center." Glad we're doing GZDoom UDMF, though, as even though I've been shifted into the "use the ultimate doom .wad" camp, I still think that the truthfulness to the intermission screen concept will be nothing but helped by GZDoom's features.

 

Also, since this is "inspired" by Ultimate Doom as it is, should we aim for pistol starts, or should we expect complete runthroughs of entire episodes?

I'm a working adult myself and Doom is hardly my only hobby, so believe me - I'd rather it get done right than get done quickly. There may start being a deadline once I've got a submission for each map in the first three episodes, but other than that, polish it up nicely at whatever pace you can manage.

 

For the other question, naturally it's assumed it will be run as part of an episode. That said, don't neglect the possibility for finishing the map under a pistol start, as well as stuff like difficulty levels and even multiplayer. I'm not aiming for this project to be for the best Doomers only or whatever - I want something that's enjoyable for all. Just because I can handle most normal maps on UV doesn't mean this other person can, after all - so it's definitely good to pay attention to where you are in the order, and plot accordingly.

 

You're E2M4, so by now the player has started picking up a little steam in terms of gear and ammo, so it's time to challenge them a bit more, maybe get a little evil in your trap placements since mere monster closets aren't going to cut it anymore, you're hiding the secrets less obviously than you would in an E1 map. Stuff like that.

 

It never, ever hurts to look over the original game maps and look at it with a mapper's eye. Figure out how they lead and guide you subconsciously, how they build tension, how they make finding that secret worth it.

 

That's the stuff a great map will be made of.

[SirJuicyLemon]

I just made a topic trying to understand Inferno's intermission screen and their correspondance with the actual levels. I think this project is pretty damn awesome! I would love to see that the levels are actually like the screen shows.

 

I would also love to participate and make a level for this! Sadly, I'm no pro-mapper. I'm not even a mapper, I kinda suck at it. But if there's anything I can do to help with this, please let me know!

[Dark Pulse]

8 hours ago, SirJuicyLemon said:

I just made a topic trying to understand Inferno's intermission screen and their correspondance with the actual levels. I think this project is pretty damn awesome! I would love to see that the levels are actually like the screen shows.

 

I would also love to participate and make a level for this! Sadly, I'm no pro-mapper. I'm not even a mapper, I kinda suck at it. But if there's anything I can do to help with this, please let me know!

Well, if you would like, make some practice levels and see how they turn out. The project is literally just a proposal right now, and not a formal project until the maps start coming in, so it's not like it's going to be finished anytime soon.

 

The only way you get better at mapping, after all, is by making maps - and analyzing what makes the great maps great.

[Wraith777]

On 2/23/2019 at 9:59 PM, kmxexii said:

@Wraith777 did this for A.L.T.'s "Vat" (MAP27) if anyone is curious for a potential example. It's "Spawning Vats" (E2M7). Heck, you might be able to con him into converting it for this project.

 

 

 

 

Well, the only reason it was made is that.. i was actually working on similar megawad back in 2006 - "Real DooM". All maps in RD should've resemble buildings you see on episode intermission screens from Ultimate Doom.

         

 

It ended up nowhere though, only bare map layouts for E1 and E2 exist, except for e2m7 (which became ALT map27) and one scene from e2m6

 
It was abandoned mainly because vanilla format is unsuitable for that kind of project and i've never got along with Z/GZdoom Maps needed to be much more detailed and design should revolve around some adventurous layouts (same simple rule from original game - 'see it from the window but can't reach it') instead of bare building surrounded by plain sight.

 

Anyway, here they are: RDoom.zip

I like experiments with "reject mapping", so maybe at least some of those layouts would be useful

Regarding E2M7: i don't have anything against using it in this project, but personally i've always felt it was somehow unfinished and hollow. Another incarnation would fit much better here, with cracked dome in a snowy desert outside and some hellish dungeons / caves underneath.

[Dark Pulse]

3 hours ago, Wraith777 said:

 

Well, the only reason it was made is that.. i was actually working on similar megawad back in 2006 - "Real DooM". All maps in RD should've resemble buildings you see on episode intermission screens from Ultimate Doom.

         

 

It ended up nowhere though, only bare map layouts for E1 and E2 exist, except for e2m7 (which became ALT map27) and one scene from e2m6

 
It was abandoned mainly because vanilla format is unsuitable for that kind of project and i've never got along with Z/GZdoom Maps needed to be much more detailed and design should revolve around some adventurous layouts (same simple rule from original game - 'see it from the window but can't reach it') instead of bare building surrounded by plain sight.

 

Anyway, here they are: RDoom.zip

I like experiments with "reject mapping", so maybe at least some of those layouts would be useful

Regarding E2M7: i don't have anything against using it in this project, but personally i've always felt it was somehow unfinished and hollow. Another incarnation would fit much better here, with cracked dome in a snowy desert outside and some hellish dungeons / caves underneath.

Wow, I'm not exactly surprised that someone else had the same idea, but I'm definitely impressed that you made it fairly far with it before abandoning it.

 

What permission do we have, if any, to make use of that work? I don't want to presume anything, but obviously it's a lot quicker if we've got a base to work off of and tweak.

 

Full credit provided for your work as well, of course! Even if someone modifies it, it's not like it's suddenly "their map." 

[Catpho]

If you guys end up doing this, please make this @Kira interpretation cannon:

[Dark Pulse]

The votes are in, and by a vote of 39-13, the community feels we should go with Ultimate Doom, and not Doom II. And so we shall. Ultimate Doom is the new IWAD.

 

Hopefully for mappers who've signed up thus far, this should generally just mean some texture changes at most. Only a few people were really making maps for the higher episodes where Doom II monsters would have really come into play, and the project is still in its early stages enough that I doubt that they have progressed to the monster placement step just yet.

 

Down the line, maybe there will be another version or a variant where we make use of Doom II, but the key word is "maybe." The community has spoken, they would rather have this be centered around Ultimate Doom in all forms, and although I don't personally agree with it at all, I'll respect the choice.

Edited March 2, 2019 by Dark Pulse

[LordEntr0py]

I saw which way the poll was leaning a couple of days ago and already switched to doom.wad. I'll miss those brown metal textures and a couple of the cement ones which I'd already used in a couple of places, but I do appreciate the chance to use a wider variety of computer terminals and TEKWALLs. Also, I've always been fond of COMPTILE and already found some appropriate usage for it.

Still making progress! I'm not the fastest of mappers and I've had to learn how to implement line and sector portals effectively, but I now at least have the opening minutes of gameplay nailed down and the skeleton for the structure, if not the rest of the level.

 

I've decided to mirror progression from the original Deimos Anomaly, so there'll be a handful Cacodemons and a secret plasma rifle.

[Dark Pulse]

1 hour ago, LordEntr0py said:

I saw which way the poll was leaning a couple of days ago and already switched to doom.wad. I'll miss those brown metal textures and a couple of the cement ones which I'd already used in a couple of places, but I do appreciate the chance to use a wider variety of computer terminals and TEKWALLs. Also, I've always been fond of COMPTILE and already found some appropriate usage for it.

Still making progress! I'm not the fastest of mappers and I've had to learn how to implement line and sector portals effectively, but I now at least have the opening minutes of gameplay nailed down and the skeleton for the structure, if not the rest of the level.

 

I've decided to mirror progression from the original Deimos Anomaly, so there'll be a handful Cacodemons and a secret plasma rifle.

I just threw up half of the guidelines for restrictions (and will have the other two done pretty soon now that I got the skeleton to post without bungling it), so that's good. Whether or not you want to ditch the Caco on ITYTD/HNTR is up to you, but technically, the original game did it. (A Lost Soul replaced the ones that weren't removed, which ironically also means the Lost Soul is one of the few monsters to actually appear later on higher difficulties, while Cacos first appear on E2M3 on the lower difficulties.)

 

That said, as long as you can find textures that are freely able to be reused, by all means, feel free to include some new textures if you'd like some concrete and metal and whatever. Just make sure I know what it is and so on so that I can credit its source appropriately. Anything that can't be verified as okay to reuse, will be removed.

[Dark Pulse]

The guidelines under Point 9 of my initial post have finally been finished. Anyone who's making a map for it (or considering doing so) should take a look at it.

 

Note that I'm not saying "If the original game had this thing on this map, you must too," with a few exceptions (mostly related to boss monsters). However, you should keep in mind where your map is in terms of the episode, and generally give opposition and Thing placement suitable for that place.

 

Basically, just use them (and the original maps) as guidelines when figuring out what stuff you're putting in the level, everything from difficulty level placement, to remembering multiplayer as well, to what the actual composition of stuff is. Key is that the map not only be doable as part of an episode proper, but from pistol start as well, after all.

[THMG]

*extremely forgot to even play deimos lab once before he started on his project voice* I had to restart my map with that in mind.

[Dark Pulse]

1 minute ago, THMG said:

*extremely forgot to even play deimos lab once before he started on his project voice* I had to restart my map with that in mind.

Anti-bueno.

[THMG]

Just now, Dark Pulse said:

Anti-bueno.

It's mostly just an aesthetic redo, because I was making a brown map when deimos lab is more blue and gray, but still, big mistake on my part.

[Dark Pulse]

Just now, THMG said:

It's mostly just an aesthetic redo, because I was making a brown map when deimos lab is more blue and gray, but still, big mistake on my part.

Nobody said the color scheme had to match too... but it does kind of help for that Shores of Hell feel, admittedly. It's certainly one of the maps I personally remember better in that episode.

[Quantum Dranger]

I'll take Command Control. That pyramid, tower, and bridge formation looks like it has a lot of potential.

[BeachThunder]

Hm, is doing something like this excessive?  (the view from Limbo looking outwards)

 

[Wraith777]

On 2/28/2019 at 1:50 AM, Dark Pulse said:

Wow, I'm not exactly surprised that someone else had the same idea, but I'm definitely impressed that you made it fairly far with it before abandoning it.

 

What permission do we have, if any, to make use of that work? I don't want to presume anything, but obviously it's a lot quicker if we've got a base to work off of and tweak.

 

Full credit provided for your work as well, of course! Even if someone modifies it, it's not like it's suddenly "their map." 

You can use and modify all of them, no limits. E2M7 could be modified to look and play totally different from ALT version.

[Dark Pulse]

10 hours ago, Quantum Dranger said:

I'll take Command Control. That pyramid, tower, and bridge formation looks like it has a lot of potential.

Thanks for joining up! I'll add you to the map listing.

 

9 hours ago, BeachThunder said:

Hm, is doing something like this excessive?  (the view from Limbo looking outwards)

 

Right now, it shouldn't be a problem, but if/when people sign up for those maps, it may mean that either they or you may want to coordinate to give them consistent appearances.

 

As long as you/they are fine with that, there's no problem with stuff like that, though of course, it does somewhat invite the question of "Why can't I walk back over there," but it's not like Doom answered why you only ever went forward either, even though the logical answer is "You killed everything, so there's no reason to go back." That and since we're using GZDoom you could always turn that part of the floor into an instant-kill sector, since it seems like it'd be quite the drop down.

 

Other than the aforementioned consistency stuff and maybe detailing it a bit higher so it's more like terrain and less like a flat floor though, seems pretty solid!

 

8 hours ago, Wraith777 said:

You can use and modify all of them, no limits. E2M7 could be modified to look and play totally different from ALT version.

Thanks a ton then. If anyone wants to take those maps, they've got that option of tweaking those instead of starting from scratch then.

Edited March 3, 2019 by Dark Pulse