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Project Proposal - Ultimate Doom: By The Map

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If you're including Episode 4, does that mean its levels will be based on this?

Spoiler

IntermissionScript.png

From thyinterpic.wad for the curious.

EDIT: I'm dumb I thought because I didn't see it when I ctrl-f'd "episode 4" and "e4" that it just wasn't addressed but you already confirmed that's what you'll be doing.

Edited by SiFi270

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Interesting idea, i'd like to see how many people will join this...I remember to have seen some year ago a similar concept for a map but only for E1M1, not even sure if that was even finished...

 

Good luck with the project! 

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7 hours ago, SiFi270 said:

If you're including Episode 4, does that mean its levels will be based on this?

  Hide contents

IntermissionScript.png

From thyinterpic.wad for the curious.

EDIT: I'm dumb I thought because I didn't see it when I ctrl-f'd "episode 4" and "e4" that it just wasn't addressed but you already confirmed that's what you'll be doing.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'd have. As I said, if someone's crazy enough to make one for Romero's E5 (as I'm assuming SIGIL won't have one), I'd include that as well.

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THIS IDEA IS SO COOL!!! I'll try my hand at making something but no promises :P

Just to help people out, here's the intermission screens so you don't have to pull up them up for yourself:


 

Spoiler

Episode1_intermission.png
Episode2_intermission.png
Imscrngo.png


You should probably add them to the OP so people can easily reference what you're talking about! (Unfortunately some of the locations are covered, my bad :s)

Edited by Miss Bubbles

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45 minutes ago, Miss Bubbles said:

Episode2_intermission.png
 

 


Just one more correction. The Tower of Babel is built as you progress through the second episode.
Twrbuild.gif

P.S. Also the episode overviews should be in OP.

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Interesting idea, one could keep the levels Doom the way ID did-ish while still basing them off of the intermission screens.

 

Could we maybe base it off a higher-detailed render, like this one I found of Nuclear plant for DooM HD?

23737649791_9471b7c147_c.jpg

 

Also, perhaps a resource WAD that keeps things 'classic-y' while still adding the new. Here's a demo for a sample map I made for another project, though their final resource WAD probably won't be like mine.

 

 

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Nice. I had this idea for a while, good to see an actual project being started up for it. I would love to participate but I can't currently. If there are still open slots when I get back in gear I would take them. Good luck!

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3 hours ago, riderr3 said:

P.S. Also the episode overviews should be in OP.

Good point. I just added them, along with labels for clarification. Hopefully they're clear enough - if not, I can always add some circles and arrows or something.

 

Maybe I could have them be animated GIFs/PNGs as well, it'd take a bit of photoshop work for me though, more than just slapping some simple labels on for.

 

1 hour ago, ShadesMaster said:

Interesting idea, one could keep the levels Doom the way ID did-ish while still basing them off of the intermission screens.

 

Could we maybe base it off a higher-detailed render, like this one I found of Nuclear plant for DooM HD?

23737649791_9471b7c147_c.jpg

I'd have no problem with that - the resolution of the original intermission screen is so tiny that realistically speaking there's bound to be a little creative license. Obviously the goal is to have the layout and external appearance (if shown) approximate what's on the map from the outside, but other than that, anything goes on the inside.

 

Realistically speaking, allowing for stuff like portals, 3D floors, and so on will allow us to sidestep a lot of limitations that the map may otherwise have off its physical dimensions alone.

 

1 hour ago, ShadesMaster said:

Also, perhaps a resource WAD that keeps things 'classic-y' while still adding the new. Here's a demo for a sample map I made for another project, though their final resource WAD probably won't be like mine.

 

 

I'm not opposed to stuff like that in principle, but I'd want to be fairly careful about how much is changed. Even if we're making use of stuff that will step away from Vanilla (Yeah, mouselook, jumping, and crouching too), I don't want it to feel like a TC or like everything is hugely different. For the most part I still want some pretty classic Doom gameplay, with some enhancements here and there by virtue of the more advanced engine and what we can do with it. If we can get away with a new monster here or a new gun there and everyone involved thinks it'll be a fun idea, sure.

 

But we'd definitely want to give the opportunity for maps to be tweaked by their makers if we add significant stuff like that, hence why I said for the most part it should hold to textures, decorations, etc. - adding new weapons and monsters is stuff that can actually change gameplay balance.

 

We'd also want to keep in mind that Doom steadily dripped its stuff to its players - several monsters and guns don't make an appearance until Episode 2, obviously the Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind are fairly protected, and by Episode 4 we can more or less let the gauntlets off and give the player some real fun for their gun. Prospective mappers would be wise to keep that in mind for Episodes 1 or 2!

 

(That's actually a good question: Should I mandate some level of "Can't have those" for E1 to mimic the feel of that? My gut says yes, especially since using Doom II as the IWAD gives us even more toys to play with on both those fronts.)

Edited by Dark Pulse

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On 2/19/2019 at 8:54 PM, Dark Pulse said:

 I see no reason to stick to the actual Ultimate Doom IWAD. And so as to provide the maximum challenge, flexibility, and (most notably) to take advantage of the Doom II bestiary and content, I think the base WAD for the project should actually be Doom II. If need be, Doom 1 textures could be moved over if there's some textures a level maker wants that aren't in the Doom II IWAD but are in Doom.

 

I think it's great that you are proposing this project and it makes me wonder why it hasn't been done before, but I wonder that you say there's no reason to stick to Doom.wad. That seems a bit disingenuous to me. It seems intrinsically obvious this should be a doom 1 project and that what you are selling to the doomworld community is the ultimate classic doom community project. Those intermission scenes are loaded with nostalgia for most doomers, and loading up doom 2 and playing with doom 2 elements in sacred doom 1 levels that at long last! look like the locations on the intermission screen would pollute and dilute what would otherwise be the ultimate nostalgia trip, and strikes me as odd and detracting from what this project naturally is about. It's like, "let's do the ultimate classic doom project, but set it in doom 2 with doom 2 monsters...) Huh? Why? Surely we should do this doom project in doom? Not to mention the extra work of making doom 2 display separate episodes when all that code is already setup in Doom 1. I dunno, revenants and mancubi would detract from the great nostalgia kick this project ought to be. 

 

I can't imagine there will be more people in favor of doing this in doom 2 than doom 1. 

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12 minutes ago, Hellbent said:

 

I think it's great that you are proposing this project and it makes me wonder why it hasn't been done before, but I wonder that you say there's no reason to stick to Doom.wad. That seems a bit disingenuous to me. It seems intrinsically obvious this should be a doom 1 project and that what you are selling to the doomworld community is the ultimate classic doom community project. Those intermission scenes are loaded with nostalgia for most doomers, and loading up doom 2 and playing with doom 2 elements in sacred doom 1 levels that at long last! look like the locations on the intermission screen would pollute and dilute what would otherwise be the ultimate nostalgia trip, and strikes me as odd and detracting from what this project naturally is about. It's like, "let's do the ultimate classic doom project, but set it in doom 2 with doom 2 monsters...) Huh? Why? Surely we should do this doom project in doom? Not to mention the extra work of making doom 2 display separate episodes when all that code is already setup in Doom 1. I dunno, revenants and mancubi would detract from the great nostalgia kick this project ought to be. 

 

I can't imagine there will be more people in favor of doing this in doom 2 than doom 1. 

It's certainly up for vote and debate. I'm totally open to that, and if more people agree it should remain a UDoom-compatible WAD, I will change the focus of the project to that accordingly.

 

Part of why I feel it shouldn't, though, is that in terms of Doom 1, the bestiary is actually kind of limited - Doom II really did add some mid-level bullet sponges, as well as some actual new and terrifying challenges (Revenants, Archviles). While I definitely get that "in name" it should stick to Ultimate Doom, in practice that actually might turn a few people off, because with the regular Doom bestiary, there's quite a few people who can put it all down in their sleep, and after the Cyberdemon/Spider Mastermind, your options for beefy enemies fall off sharply: The Baron of Hell, then the Cacodemon, and then you're down to stuff you can take out with a few single shotgun blasts.

 

Plus, everyone loves the Super Shotgun, and this wouldn't even be the first time to allow you to use a Super Shotgun in "Doom" levels (PSX Doom let you get it in a secret area). Not to mention Doom II monsters turned up in Doom I maps on Ultra-Violence, and that was actually a hella unique thing - and an exciting new challenge.

 

I'm not worried about setting up the display and code though for episodes and the intermission maps. That stuff's trivial.

 

I mean, realistically speaking, it's not like the D2 monsters or SSG couldn't be ported via DECORATE, either, but to me, using the Doom II IWAD would just save us from some trouble. Not to mention that it's actually more likely people will have the Doom II IWAD than Ultimate Doom. But again, that's what debates are for. If the general sentiment of people is that I should stick to the Ultimate Doom IWAD, I'll do exactly that.

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And if people wanna use D1, my resource pack DOES have some Doom 2 goodies in it as well! Otherwise, I'll just basically make a UDMF map for this... E1M2!

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25 minutes ago, ShadesMaster said:

And if people wanna use D1, my resource pack DOES have some Doom 2 goodies in it as well! Otherwise, I'll just basically make a UDMF map for this... E1M2!

Thank you for being the first brave soul to take an attempt. :)

 

 

 

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Nice idea, I always wished the maps actually resembled the intermission screen art.

I'll try my hand at Hangar sometime in the next couple weeks and send in a rough version.

Should the progression be similar to original Doom (as in, no Cyberdemons or higher tier enemies on level 1, for example) or is it free range?

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Just now, wheresthebeef said:

Nice idea, I always wished the maps actually resembled the intermission screen art.

I'll try my hand at Hangar sometime in the next couple weeks and send in a rough version.

Should the progression be similar to original Doom (as in, no Cyberdemons or higher tier enemies on level 1, for example) or is it free range?

My gut tells me that it would be best to keep that progression fairly like the original in that sense, so it will be slowly drip-dropped over a course of episodes. Episode 1 is your basic fodder mooks, Episode 2 might introduce some newer nasties (especially if we use the Doom II IWAD), Episode 3 should be most of the bestiary available, and Episode 4 should try to kill you.

 

Also, thanks for the volunteering. :)

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This sounds like a great idea! I myself have wondered on occasion what the locations on the intermission screens would look like in actual game maps. It seems very intriguing.

 

That being said, I'm gonna have to agree with Hellbent. I feel like this should be a UD project IMHO. I love Doom 2 as much as the next guy, but I personally lean slightly towards Doom 1 when it comes down to it, mainly for the nostalgia I'll admit but I also like it's "simplicity" in a way. At the very least, I think you should get more input from the community before deciding which direction we ought to go with that.

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Just now, Triple_sSs said:

This sounds like a great idea! I myself have wondered on occasion what the locations on the intermission screens would look like in actual game maps. It seems very intriguing.

 

That being said, I'm gonna have to agree with Hellbent. I feel like this should be a UD project IMHO. I love Doom 2 as much as the next guy, but I personally lean slightly towards Doom 1 when it comes down to it, mainly for the nostalgia I'll admit but I also like it's "simplicity" in a way. At the very least, I think you should get more input from the community before deciding which direction we ought to go with that.

I absolutely welcome more input on that, so if anyone wants to voice an opinion, go right ahead and feel free.

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3 minutes ago, BeachThunder said:

Sign me up for Limbo!

Have fun creating a semi-buried Parthenon-style temple, probably :)

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21 minutes ago, DJVCardMaster said:

Sign me up for Phobos Lab!

Spots are filling up quite nicely, and this pleases me. :)

 

Interesting to see if whoever eventually does Deimos Lab will get influenced by your work, as well.

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Just now, Dark Pulse said:

Spots are filling up quite nicely, and this pleases me. :)

 

Interesting to see if whoever eventually does Deimos Lab will get influenced by your work, as well.

Let's see what I can do over the course of this project, I'll have to learn some GZD tricks, if there are no hard time constraints I could work on in with no problem.

It's easy to come up with a layout for this one and I think I see where I could go

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1 minute ago, DJVCardMaster said:

Let's see what I can do over the course of this project, I'll have to learn some GZD tricks, if there are no hard time constraints I could work on in with no problem.

It's easy to come up with a layout for this one and I think I see where I could go

Can't really ever be final until at least one stab at every map has been attempted by someone, so I'm not really setting any sort of time limit.

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It took me just now to realize that Phobos Labs and Deimos Labs both use the same graphic.

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2 hours ago, Count651 said:

It took me just now to realize that Phobos Labs and Deimos Labs both use the same graphic.

Feel free to share it with the world - there's a thread here exactly for that. :)

 

(That said, they're actually not identical - the windows and stuff definitely differ. But the layout is definitely identical, and they were both clearly made from the same basic graphic.)

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2 hours ago, Count651 said:

It took me just now to realize that Phobos Labs and Deimos Labs both use the same graphic.

Also Containment Area and Command Control looks like the same building but from different angle.

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13 hours ago, Reinchard said:

Also Containment Area and Command Control looks like the same building but from different angle.

They look a little different if you look carefully (Containment Area seems to have an extra tower Command Control does not), but they are definitely similar in a lot of ways, so likely again the same "base" model with just some tweaks.

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