hardcore_gamer Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) Or any non-advanced port for that matter. In the past I have sometimes lamented about how advanced ports like Gzdoom are underrated and that it doesn't make any sense to call it's features gimmicky as some people do. However, I have also sometimes noticed another phenomena in which people lament maps for having visuals that are "too simple". This is something that doesn't really make any sense to me. You can't create advanced visuals without an advanced port. Even boom limits you massively compared to something like UDMF in Gzdoom. Some will claim that you can create complex looking details with even just boom but in my opinion such levels almost always look and feel exactly the same as a result of the limitations of boom. The biggest problem with using boom to create complex detail is that unlike gzdoom which allows angled areas and slopes as well as a variety of 3D trickery all geo made in boom can only move straight up and down and that means that there are really just 2 ways to create detail: Borders, and simplistic inserts/bevels into walls. EDIT: Ok also lightning contrasts. And that's it pretty much. Sure, you can play around with sector height variation to spice things up, but fact is that boom can only do so much when it comes to creating complex visuals. Basically my point is, that I don't really understand why some people complain about visuals being "too basic" when the level is being made for boom or basically just anything that isn't an advanced port. It's understandable people might feel this way if somebody made a level for gzdoom and the level just looked the same as most boom wads, but it just seems really strange to me to complain about a lack of complex detail for a wad that isn't even using an advanced port. To be honest, I feel that boom wads should be judged entirely differently from zdoom style wads. Boom style wads should be judged by gameplay and how "clean" the level looks/feels in regards to things like texture alignment and overall smoothness, rather than detail. Zdoom style projects in return should be viewed more akin to a modern style game. Do you agree with my analysis? Edited February 22, 2019 by hardcore_gamer 2 Share this post Link to post
Kira Posted February 22, 2019 It's going to be hard to argue about this but I don't think slopes and 3D sectors are necessary for great Doom architecture/visuals. I mean come on, at this point we have good references and this is because they exist that some would complain about simplistic detail in another Boom wad. OTOH I think the gimmicky complaint for GZDoom maps is hard to take seriously I agree, if it was a systematic kneejerk reaction at the slightest eye-candy. You are bound to encounter maps where the author will be a bit too happy to use 3D platforms or slopes for their own good, but nothing here prevents mapping good architecture that isn't gimmicky + why not contributes to gameplay meaningfully. 3 Share this post Link to post
riderr3 Posted February 22, 2019 Sometimes restricted format motivates map authors to look for other ways to intrigue players. 2 Share this post Link to post
gaspe Posted February 22, 2019 After reading your posts I wonder what kind of wads you play, if you play wads at all. Your analysis of what detail is so shallow if you count only 2 things that are relatively marginal in the big picture when the detail of a level is also made with the architecture, structures, lighting, texture compositions, (sector furniture), things. You don't even need sector borders as creating contrast can also be a way to detail. 4 Share this post Link to post
hardcore_gamer Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, gaspe said: Your analysis of what detail is so shallow if you count only 2 things that are relatively marginal in the big picture when the detail of a level is also made with the architecture, structures, lighting, texture compositions, (sector furniture), things. With Boom's limited abilities, every "structure" you make is going to look very basic. Ditto for "furniture". To be honest, I find most attempts at realistic buildings and items in boom to look rather cringy, because they stand out in such massive contrast with the rest of the world's abstract design. I feel level makers should simply choose a design style and stick with it rather than going with a blended style that just looks inconsistent. 0 Share this post Link to post
Kira Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said: With Boom's limited abilities, every "structure" you make is going to look very basic. Ditto for "furniture". To be honest, I find most attempts at realistic buildings and items in boom to look rather cringy, because they stand out in such massive contrast with the rest of the world's abstract design. I feel level makers should simply choose a design style and stick with it rather than going with a blended style that just looks inconsistent. Realism isn't the only way you can make something beautiful. You mentioned abstract design, that's one way. I mean, we are probably threading the same path as any discussion about art here. Edit: Well you are not entirely out of the loop I must add. I don't disagree about consistency at least. 1 Share this post Link to post
Koko Ricky Posted February 22, 2019 I wonder who is complaining about vanilla or boom levels looking too simple, because that's a pretty silly attitude and I don't recall coming across such criticism recently. Any one who knows the Doom engine knows that the architecture is always going to be constrained by its 2.5D-ness, even in UDMF. 8 Share this post Link to post
holaareola Posted February 22, 2019 This reaches my ear like a bag on non-GZDoom mapping in the guise of a defence of it. Where are all these complaints? The biggest WAD buzz I see around at the moment is Eviternity, which is MBF compatible. I disagree about the two options for detail. It's a reductionist view. Technically, of course, you are correct -- but to me it's kind of like saying everything's made of atoms and therefore all the same. Is an outset from a ceiling the same effect when it's on a ceiling with a standard flat as with one with a sky texture? I'd say not. Hell, as a gimmicky answer, I saw a picture of a giant snake rising out of lava in a map here the other day, not requiring a port I believe, you wouldn't see that and think borders, insets and outsets (you might think it looks bloody blocky though). It's certainly harder to create striking and unique visuals without advanced port features, but not impossible. For me, the greatest benefit of advanced port features is not complex visuals but complex level layouts. As a designer, you're so hamstrung on gameplay across the vertical axis without room over room. 2 Share this post Link to post
Dragonfly Posted February 22, 2019 10 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said: With Boom's limited abilities, every "structure" you make is going to look very basic. How so? The fundamental basis for mapping in GZDoom is the same lines§ors logic of Boom-. I am a massive advocate of the enhanced mapping features that you have access to with GZDoom, but to state that all maps made for boom will have simplistic structures is absolute nonsense and shows a lack of understanding or flat out miscommunication of your point. While yes, the "cap" of how detailed a map could get is certainly higher within a GZDoom map, to say that boom maps can't be "extremely detailed" or feature "complex structures" is honestly just ridiculous. Some of the most intricate maps I've ever played are in boom format. At no point can some of these structures be summarised as "very basic", nor do the maps themselves feel like the author's vision for the map was compromised by a lack of features. Spoiler I really need to stop replying to hardcore_gamer threads. 29 Share this post Link to post
Lila Feuer Posted February 22, 2019 Can we petition to get hardcore_boomer's rank changed to HOT TAKES? 6 Share this post Link to post
esselfortium Posted February 22, 2019 1 hour ago, hardcore_gamer said: all geo made in boom can only move straight up and down and that means that there are really just 2 ways to create detail: Borders, and simplistic inserts/bevels into walls. This is total nonsense, thank you for another clickbait thread 35 Share this post Link to post
Payload4367 Posted February 22, 2019 I've always mapped in GZdoom udmf (it's just what I started with). However, I recently made a few maps in boom format to check it out and familiarize myself with it. I had no problem creating good visuals and quite enjoyed the challenge of the limitations. It forced me to think about things in new ways. So...yes it restricts the mapper, but not enough to prevent them from making good visuals with a little practice. Actually, the thing I didn't like was not having scripts, which I think enhances gameplay more than anything (when used properly). Also... I have no problem with simple geometry. In reviews an what-not, it should be considered a style choice and not a criticism (unless it is a low/no effort wad...those just suck no matter what). 3 Share this post Link to post
⇛Marnetmar⇛ Posted February 22, 2019 Guys what if we designed visuals to be appropriate for the intended themes and goals of our maps 2 Share this post Link to post
Xaser Posted February 22, 2019 2 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said: You can't create advanced visuals without an advanced port. This is vanilla-compatible: 39 Share this post Link to post
Jimmy Posted February 22, 2019 Are we really still doing the "NEEDS MORE DETAIL" thing in the year of our lord 2019 28 Share this post Link to post
Tristan Posted February 22, 2019 10 minutes ago, Xaser said: This is vanilla-compatible: But it doesn't have slopes, and we all know slopes makes everything look better 27 Share this post Link to post
Jayextee Posted February 22, 2019 Detail created with vanilla limitations is true detail. Anything more is just clutter. </s> 3 Share this post Link to post
holaareola Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) Ah, Xaser, but what about ? It won't run on vanilla though... I think I know where this thread came from: https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1961531 0 Share this post Link to post
Aquila Chrysaetos Posted February 22, 2019 1 hour ago, hardcore_gamer said: With Boom's limited abilities, every "structure" you make is going to look very basic. Some of the community's greatest mappers disagree. Sunlust map 30: God Machine by Ribbiks and dannebubinga Spoiler Eviternity map 32: Anagnorisis by Ukiro Spoiler Vela Pax maps 1, 2 and 5: Excella, Substruct, and Apollyon, respectively top to bottom by Mechadon Spoiler The Given by Dobu Gabu Maru Spoiler 23 Share this post Link to post
Nine Inch Heels Posted February 22, 2019 Clickbait op dissection time: 3 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said: However, I have also sometimes noticed another phenomena in which people lament maps for having visuals that are "too simple". This is something that doesn't really make any sense to me. I'm with you so far. Simple doesn't mean "boring". 3 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said: You can't create advanced visuals without an advanced port. Unless you have a definition for what "advanced visuals" are, I'm gonna have to call BS. 3 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said: Even boom limits you massively compared to something like UDMF in Gzdoom. I see where this is going. Also: DUH! Who would've thought that formats with more features provide more tools. 3 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said: Some will claim that you can create complex looking details with even just boom but in my opinion such levels almost always look and feel exactly the same as a result of the limitations of boom. Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion man. I could easily pull a few boom maps up here that will prove you wrong in a matter of seconds, but since you didn't afford your fellow readers the courtesy of providing a comparison between a detailed boom map to a detailed UDMF map, I'm simply not gonna bother. Also, just for the sake of the argument, if you really wanna tell people that for example Deus Vult II maps feel and look the same as maps in Speed of Doom, or Jenesis, then I'd suggest getting yourself a pair of glasses that help you see a bit more clearly. 3 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said: The biggest problem with using boom to create complex detail is that unlike gzdoom which allows angled areas and slopes as well as a variety of 3D trickery all geo made in boom can only move straight up and down and that means that there are really just 2 ways to create detail: Borders, and simplistic inserts/bevels into walls. EDIT: Ok also lightning contrasts. And that's it pretty much. Sure, you can play around with sector height variation to spice things up, but fact is that boom can only do so much when it comes to creating complex visuals. Ah, I could see that coming from a mile away, it's yet another "anything but UDMF isn't good enough" type of ramble that ironically merely exhibits your lack of expertise when it comes to mapping. Reminds me of an older thread of yours where you were asking "why people don't just use UDMF", as though it was objectively better in every respect. Never mind that that's been incorrect right off the bat as well, since all it took was to simply look at what maps were popular at the time to get a pretty clear idea as to what these supposedly inferior formats can do that players appreciate. 3 hours ago, hardcore_gamer said: Basically my point is, that I don't really understand why some people complain about visuals being "too basic" when the level is being made for boom or basically just anything that isn't an advanced port. Because even within the boundaries of boom format that you like to deem so "restrictive", maps can look bland and uninspired, duh... 10 Share this post Link to post
seed Posted February 22, 2019 Wow indeed. I don't even need to have much knowledge in terms of mapping to realize this is BS... 1 Share this post Link to post
Kira Posted February 22, 2019 Before this thread completely devolves into a gangbang, does everyone see the screenshots in @Aquila Chrysaetos's post? All I see is filenames :-( 0 Share this post Link to post
hardcore_gamer Posted February 22, 2019 The screenshots above look like something from Minecraft. They are actually a pretty good example of what I meant when I said that attempts at realism/complex geo makes me cringe when done in boom. Sorry but I just don't see how there is anything aesthetic about ultra blocky architecture. 0 Share this post Link to post
Grain of Salt Posted February 22, 2019 Essel's reply says it all, but I can't resist poking... If "advanced" detailing requires udmf/whatever, why do no udmf/whatever maps even come close to matching the visuals of the best looking cl9/2 maps? (eg: parts of sd20x7, miasma, bauhaus, parts of btsx) 5 Share this post Link to post
Nine Inch Heels Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said: The screenshots above look like something from Minecraft. They are actually a pretty good example of what I meant when I said that attempts at realism/complex geo makes me cringe when done in boom. Sorry but I just don't see how there is anything aesthetic about ultra blocky architecture. Funny how descriptive your words are of your own works, which are done in a supposedly superior format. You may not like it, but this is what peak-irony looks like. 8 Share this post Link to post
hardcore_gamer Posted February 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Nine Inch Heels said: Funny how descriptive your words are of your own works, which are done in a supposedly superior format. You may not like it, but this is what peak-irony looks like. What a way to miss the point. What I was talking about are things like "slopes" made out of squares. In the above screenshots there were attempts at making complex geo that boom isn't really able to do, so instead they decided to just use a large number of sectors with varying height variation, thus resulting in that blocky look. The screenshots you posted look fairly smooth and clean however and do not contain such geo. 0 Share this post Link to post
Bauul Posted February 22, 2019 @hardcore_gamer Ok, perhaps can you give us some guidance on what you mean? As an example, take the below screenshot of a limit-removing map I just released (not even Boom). Can you highlight the areas that you feel UDMF would improve this? I'm genuinely curious, because I make a lot of UDMF maps, and I'm not sure what else I'd do here. 16 Share this post Link to post
esselfortium Posted February 22, 2019 1 minute ago, hardcore_gamer said: What a way to miss the point. What I was talking about are things like "slopes" made out of squares. In the above screenshots there were attempts at making complex geo that boom isn't really able to do, so instead they decided to just use a large number of sectors with varying height variation, thus resulting in that blocky look. The screenshots you posted look fairly smooth and clean however and do not contain such geo. This is a pretty major goalpost shift from the original claim about only borders and inset wall computers existing in classic formats. 17 Share this post Link to post
Tristan Posted February 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, hardcore_gamer said: The screenshots you posted look fairly smooth and clean however and do not contain such geo. They also look boring as fuck. 8 Share this post Link to post
Nine Inch Heels Posted February 22, 2019 1 minute ago, hardcore_gamer said: The screenshots you posted look fairly smooth and clean however and do not contain such geo. Yeah, okay, I get it, you're just high on your own farts. Lemme tell ya something about those screenshots that you yourself made in a map that you yourself are building: they're bland, they're crude, they lack detail, and your texture alignment sucks. 6 Share this post Link to post