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Marcaek

TNT 2: Devilution (Third beta released)

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1 hour ago, lupinx-Kassman said:

I provided a spoiler synopsis of 30's plot below for those that are that curious. As well as a few plot-related fun tidbits. I really recommend you play the map first though before reading any of it:

 

It all makes sense now. Before this info, I very puzzled about why we are travelling inside blood vessels and why are there giant syringes in the space near the starting spaceship and whatnot.

 

Really cool idea and my appreciation for the map suddenly just increased.

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Posted (edited)

Hmm, dunno if it might be worth taking a look but: 

doom00.png.1b62a51c0a613b1e2a1cd7f9ac4e078f.png

Map 31 

 

It seems to happen whenever i go arround the building to grab the soulsphere (and kill thr vile) because before i go there, the shellboxes are on ground level. It's weird cause there doesn't seem to be any floor rising or whatnot. 

Edited by Yugiboy85

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Posted (edited)

More map-specific feedback. Except for MAP22 and MAP23 these were all played on the 1st beta release, so sorry if any of the comments are outdated

 

Spoiler

All levels played from a pistol start on DSDA-Doom complevel 4 UV with limited saves

  • MAP13
    • Loved the concept of these one, being basically Dead Zone but modernized and creepier. Also loved the complete disregard for typical key placement conventions, as well as the fact that 1 of a set of 3 secrets is required for progression. Was less of a fan of the combat - many of the encounters felt more jumpscare-ish than fun, but still really enjoyed the map despite this
    • Strange alignment on the door's warning stripe here
    • You get 2 armor suits in a row when entering the base here, which was kind of unnecessary
  • MAP14
    • Another awesome techbase map. Lots of creative set pieces plus a great unraveling layout. Tied with map15 as my favorite from this batch of maps
  • MAP15
    • Knew I was going to like this one once I saw the graffiti. Tons of creative stuff here
    • Pistol start was tough but nothing unreasonable - once I got a decent amount of supplies the level wasn't really that difficult, besides the frantic succession of fights in the southeast corner, which was a def highlight. 
    • I wonder if this was meant to be less of a tribute to TNT Evilution and more of a tribute to Team TNT in general. The diner is a clear Icarus reference, and the TV remote secret seemed like a homage to the Eternal Doom mansion map. Also this is maybe a stretch, but the midi seemed pretty Eternal Doom-ish
    • Pretty minor annoyance, but once you get the plasma rifle, you can get blocked by a hidden imp when trying to jump off the ledge out
    • I didn't like that the secret exit was unmarked. Seems like it'd be pretty annoying to accidentally hit the switch without wanting to leave the map
  • MAP31
    • Less of a fan of this map. Honestly I felt that the Roman theme was a missed opportunity. While the new textures (and triangular roofs!) were pretty cool, if you take them (and all the columns) away, you basically have a generically themed crypt map, which could be easily re-themed as Egyptian or something. IDK just felt like Roman theme was wasted potential, I would have preferred to see some more distinctly Roman locations like a forum, amphitheater, or villa, but instead there were just a bunch of temples and a lifetime supply of columns. This all is probably a stupid thing to complain about, but besides the theme I didn’t find any of the other aspects of the map to be that strong.
  • MAP32
    • Much better secret level IMO. Was a bit disappointed that this was yet another Egyptian level but I think the idea of fusing the Egyptian and techbase themes helped keep it interesting. The main advantage here over MAP32 for me was the combat, which included several great set pieces (a highlight being the red key area). Also another big step up in difficulty
  • MAP16
    • This one felt like a well-deserved breather after the last few maps. Well captures the eerie techbase feeling of some of the E2 Evilution maps like Crater and Steel Works
  • MAP17
    • This one was just okay. I liked the island layout but the combat when first going outside felt pretty annoying, with the use of high-pressure enemies like chaingunners and pain elementals without any armor. The map wasn’t particularly difficult compared to some of the ones before it, but I felt like the puzzleish layout would have been better complemented by more laid-backed gameplay. Felt pretty stylistically out of place too, but once again… TNT sequel.
    • The cyb was able to teleport here and get stuck. Poor dude 😥
  • MAP18
    • Another dark, relatively easy, techbase level like MAP16, but this time with an even stronger sense of atmosphere. Something about the layout here felt kind of off to me but I couldn’t really put my finger on it… I guess there wasn’t really a clear progression and I just kind of wandered around until I was able to get to the exit. This sense of aimlessness fits the map’s mood though, so maybe this isn’t that much of a bad thing, IDK. Enjoyed this overall but can’t help but feeling that it has the potential to be even better
    • Slime trail in the ceiling here
    • Some of the shorter metal fences could be walked through - not sure if these were intentional. At the very least I think this one could be made more realistic by making use of a self-referential sector
  • MAP19
    • A 900+ monster meme. It’s pretty good
    • Really like that you can skip most of the map. Besides being in line with the original Habitat, this provides an easier way out for what’s easily the most difficult non-secret map of the wad so far if the player’s not really up to it
  • MAP20
    • Ehhh actually didn't enjoy this one too much. Some of the visuals were technically impressive I guess but overall they felt maybe to abstract and random to really come together into something coherent. Didn't find the combat that enjoyable either. IDK maybe I was just in a bad mood
    • Despite all this I did really like the small closed-off section you teleport to in the east of the map behind the starting area. The visual style and architecture seemed to come together better there than in the rest of the map
    • I was able to get stuck here after teleporting back to the main area after the yellow key. This was by opening the wall to the side and hugging the bloodfall until the wall closed
    • Automap glitches
    • The midi was okay but I thought it was pretty repetitive for such a long map. ...hoping this is one of the ones Bucket tweaked for the 2nd beta
    • The fight after the fake exit seemed like a huge increase in difficulty compared to everything else so far in the wad. I gave it like 20 tries (while only dying like 2-3 times in the rest of the map) before giving up and just running for the exit... which maybe was the point? Either way I'm generally more of a fan of smoother difficulty curves so didn't like this, but YMMV
  • MAP21
    • Does TNT 2 continue the TNT tradition by shitting the bed in its final third? Based on this map, the answer is no
    • A pretty low-key level, but once again a nice breather after the previous 2 colossuses
  • MAP22
    • Yet another moody techbase, this one being another standout map of the wad so far. Lots of memorable stuff here, such as the automap wackiness near the start or the room with all doors. Really loving how so many of the maps in the wad have been tapping into creepiness of a lot of Evilution's middle levels
    • This level had another abnormally difficult closing area with it's arch-vile surprise party. Died 10+ times here after only 1 death from the rest of the map. I actually think the fight itself was great on its own, but I think a megasphere or something before it would have helped smooth out the challenge (if that's a priority)
    • This TNT sign take the award for best random detail of the wad so far
  • MAP23
    • …and the darkness of MAP22 is balanced out with something much more action-packed and bright. Pretty solid level, though not much about it really stood out to me. Favorite thing about it was probably the texturing actually, I can’t think of many maps with the same red+silver color scheme, and this map look full advantage of it with tons of blood smears on the silver walls, pools of blood on the floor, and… …a relatively high number of Cacodemons(?)

In general these maps felt more ambitious and atmospheric than the ones from the first 12 I went over in my previous write up. Not that surprising considering the fact that they're deeper in the mapset I guess. Kinda enjoyed the first set of levels I played more, but overall still really liking the wad.

 

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Posted (edited)

@Processingcontrol Kind of amusing how you and I have pretty much the exact opposite opinions regarding map19 and 20. I didn't like 19 at all, whereas I loved map20.

 

Also while the final fight is definitely quite a spike in difficulty, it didn't feel all that bad if one grabs invulnerability around the time when the archviles arrive from teleports. Just BFG focus on AVs and kill most of them + the masterminds (to free more megaspheres under them) before the invul runs out and hopefully it will end out fine. I died only like a couple of times before I managed best that fight. 

 

I do agree with Map22's final fight though. Easily the hardest fight of the entire wad in my opinion. I too died here like 10-ish times before I got lucky and I hadn't died even once on that map before that fight, but was unfortunate to enter that fight with low health due to the previous cyberdemon+revenant fight. I agree that a megasphere and perhaps even a little bit more cell ammo would go a good way to smooth the difficulty of the fight in an otherwise mostly relaxed map. Otherwise the fight is pretty cool.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, lupinx-Kassman said:

Really appreciate the feedback so far everyone! Its been very useful. We've been addressing issues as they are brought up.


And I'm happy people seem to be enjoying MAP30 so far! After spending several lifetimes on it its nice to finally watch folks experience it for the first time.

Yeah i was blown away when i played map30 it was not like any other map30's ive seen.

 

Spoiler

Although i will be honest when i beat it the first time i was a bit disappointed at the ending and lack of a new type of Icon of sin, But i've grown to really like it and knowing the lore for it makes me appreciate it alot more, Although fighting an egg-con of sin is a really cool/funny idea which i hope gets used for another wad. 

 

Also im guessing the blue light at the end of evilution was IO creature waking up? thats the one part of Evilution i was excited to learn about most in devilution.

 

Edited by Tycitron

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1 hour ago, ReaperAA said:

Also while the final fight is definitely quite a spike in difficulty, it didn't feel all that bad if one grabs invulnerability around the time when the archviles arrive from teleports. Just BFG focus on AVs and kill most of them + the masterminds (to free more megaspheres under them) before the invul runs out and hopefully it will end out fine. I died only like a couple of times before I managed best that fight.

FWIW I was only to get like half the AVs with the invuln each time, and afterward just got swarmed by the remaining ones. I'm personally not that great at using the BFG though so that could have been part of why it was so tough for me.

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Posted (edited)

Sorry for bothering you devs again with another comment (I swear it is not related to gameplay this time 😅). A few days ago I was having a discussion with someone regarding Devilution's plot and there are a few questions that were raised about its plot I would like to know the answers of:

Spoiler
  1. There is mention of time travel in at the end of Map11's intermission screen. When exactly did we time travel? Did we do that at the end of Map11, when we step into the void? I wish the map made it clear, but I understand that vanilla limits can be annoying at times.
  2. Why did doomguy time travel to future? What purpose does it serve? Is it so doomguy could find a means to destroy the infernal carrier or is it to destroy the moon? Or is it something else
  3. Where does map13 (and all maps before Map20) take place? Are we in space? The ending of map12 where he reaches the Dead Zone area makes me think so. But then are lakes and water stream and other "Earthly" looking locales?
  4. What are we doing from Maps 13 to 19. Is it just Doomguy trying to find his way to the infernal carrier because he believes that it would stop the demons (that is until he hear the voice of darkness at the end of map20 that leads him to the hidden passage)? This is my speculation.
  5. In Map30, the TNT covertly researches the entity on IO by creating the hidden syringe facilities to remain hidden. But then why do the other facilities (like the ones we see throughout Maps 21 to 29) were non-hidden? Were the Map30 research facilities created by a second research team that was sent there in the future timeline after the first team was wiped out? This is my speculation, but I would like to know the answer.

 

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6 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

Sorry for bothering you devs again with another comment (I swear it is not related to gameplay this time 😅). A few days ago I was having a discussion with someone regarding Devilution's plot and there are a few questions that were raised about its plot I would like to know the answers of:

  Hide contents
  1. There is mention of time travel in at the end of Map11's intermission screen. When exactly did we time travel? Did we do that at the end of Map11, when we step into the void? I wish the map made it clear, but I understand that vanilla limits can be annoying at times.
  2. Why did doomguy time travel to future? What purpose does it serve? Is it so doomguy could find a means to destroy the infernal carrier or is it to destroy the moon? Or is it something else
  3. Where does map13 (and all maps before Map20) take place? Are we in space? The ending of map12 where he reaches the Dead Zone area makes me think so. But then are lakes and water stream and other "Earthly" looking locales?
  4. What are we doing from Maps 13 to 19. Is it just Doomguy trying to find his way to the infernal carrier because he believes that it would stop the demons (that is until he hear the voice of darkness at the end of map20 that leads him to the hidden passage)? This is my speculation.
  5. In Map30, the TNT covertly researches the entity on IO by creating the hidden syringe facilities to remain hidden. But then why do the other facilities (like the ones we see throughout Maps 21 to 29) were non-hidden? Were the Map30 research facilities created by a second research team that was sent there in the future timeline after the first team was wiped out? This is my speculation, but I would like to know the answer.

 

To addon to this; i just have 3 more of my own questions regarding this aswell, Sorry to bother you with all this. i enjoy the wad alot so im just curious what the team was going for. (the maps themselves were great, map15, 20, 22, and 30 were amazing especially.)

 

Spoiler

1. So what exactly was the blue light at the end of Evilution, was it the moon creature waking up due to you destroying the Demon-spitter? it seems to have some minor-reality warping powers, especially during maps 22-29.

 

2, speaking of the third section of Devilution, where does it take place? doomguy takes hold of the infernal carrier from Evilutions story, then leaves cause a voice was whispering to him, but in map21 are we still on the carrier? i noticed the red striped beams from map20 were in a few maps, seemingly drilling into the ground, were they trying to find the syringe facility? the demons already had hold of that place when we go there.

 

3. What was happening in Map15? i cant tell if it was recently attacked, or if it was the first place the Infernal Carrier attacked IO in the Evilution storyline. But the mention of eyes is weird cause it happened after the demon-spitters death. or after the the time travel thing, did the UAC go back to IO and rebuild, only to be killed by the demons?

 

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On 5/14/2022 at 3:54 AM, Yugiboy85 said:

Hmm, dunno if it might be worth taking a look but: 

 

Yeah, I think we do aware of these, but it's just too funny to fix. Therefore, I think probably this is not going to be fixed because of its stupidity.

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Posted (edited)
Spoiler

Not sure what targets are, so going to take a break. Kinda taking awhile 

 

 

 

 

Playtesting

MAP01-MAP12 : Done

Spoiler

Playtesting:

MAP01-MAP## : Done Using tnt2_beta2.wad.

 

Skill Balance:

Spoiler

MAP01:

MAP02: 

Spoiler

Skill 3: The starting area before the lift feels very similar to skill 4, the amount of snipers from above and below mainly. 

 

MAP03:

Spoiler

Skill 3: I am noticing the maps are balanced quite well, just with a pretty narrow damage ratio between skill 3 and 4. I noticed a couple monster removals, but map did not feel much easier. 

 

Skill 2's blue armor helped for a perfect balance.

MAP04:

Spoiler

Skill 3: Felt identical to skill 4, except there was an SSG half way through.

 

Skill 2: An SSG at map start, and noticed a few monster removals/swaps was a bit more balanced. 

 

MAP05: 

MAP06: 

Spoiler

Both lower skills were nicely progressively toned down. Monster removals/swaps were done in almost every area, good selections too. That bonus at the end for skill 2 was also great. 

 

MAP07: 

Spoiler

Skill 2 and 3: Late Chaingun. The chaingunners in the monster closet near start are missing in skill 2 and 3. I usually just go right around the corner from the lift at start and kill a closet chaingunner. The next two available chainguns are a decent fight into the map.

 

Skill balance is good, just late weapons.

MAP08:

Spoiler

Skill 3 is great. A lot of hitscanner swaps made gameplay feel similar to skill 4, but the lower damage rate and lots of health nicely balanced out.

 

Skill 2 had even more swaps, but not much more health. The monster closet swarms were nicely toned down. Maybe a certain sniper per area could lower the pressure on skill 2, or little more health late in map.

 

MAP09: 

Spoiler

Skill 2 probably could have kept the cyberdemon with a invulnerability sphere in that area. I noticed the cyberdemon spawns in a few seconds late consistently which would give skill 2 player time to grab sphere. 

 

MAP10: 

Spoiler

Skills 2 and 3 I noticed the initial big fight was mostly skill balanced with a closer rocket launcher. During my Skill 3 run, I ran out of ammo as I consistently did in skill 4(skeleton punching even)...did not notice rocket launcher was moved closer. I think balance would be even better if rocket launcher was much closer, so player would definitely find it faster.

 

Skill 2 might need an extra green armor near very end.

MAP11:

Spoiler

Skills 2 and 3 have a narrow balance ratio. Skill 3 felt almost identical to skill 4 in most areas. Skill 2 was much more noticeably balanced, but would need a little more if skill 3 was adjusted.

MAP12: 

Spoiler

Skill 3 might need to be very slightly toned down in the archvile/rocket launcher room. I think there is an extra green armor, but fight is still as rough as skill 4.

 

 

 

Other Reports:

Spoiler

MAP01:

Spoiler

I noticed more fully tiled textures, and alignments were a more classic/relaxed style in MAP01. Maybe wont need to post as many texture issues if the style is consistent. 

 

Skill 3 has floating armor. 

map01_skill3_exitroom.png

 

MAP03: 

Spoiler

Some type of segbleed. 

DOOM05.png

 

VPO looking backwards, dropping off ledge, before door closes. 

DOOM06.png

 

Map needs to be opened, player with all keys and lifts activated. Same spot farther back:

DOOM10.png

 

MAP04:

Spoiler

Sprite Overflow: The sprites are fairly trapped in this area, hall leading up to this area has lots of small monsters. A perfect amount of things here so that I think only 2-3 sprites max are going over. Not really a big issue, but those trees in the back are large and flicker.

DOOM12.png

 

I had cleared a large area and connecting areas. Was just messing around for awhile looking at stuff and decided to start punching walls for secrets. A few rooms of wall punching manage to wake up this archvile and a few monsters(I dont think they were all resurrected). I was not even slightly trying to play silently to avoid waking monsters in activated closets. Probably just a vanillaism

DOOM11.png

 

Movebob VPO, Running up this corner with door in distance open movebobs just enough to VPO.

DOOM13.png

 

VPO Yellow key door open.

DOOM14.png

 

VPO Yellow door, new angle and height

DOOM15.png

 

Softlock: Archvile jump towards soulsphere, fall in slime pit, and teleport to softlock.

DOOM17.png

 

 

MAP05:

Spoiler

VPO, back towards megasphere cave. Lowering statbar adds 26 visplanes.

DOOM20.png

 

Vanillaism smoothing. Much like an area in the previous map, monsters in closet seem to stay asleep. Surely entirely savegame/vanilla limit issue. By the time I got to this room, the map was saved and loaded probably several times. The room the monsters spawn in is not the linked to the closet to wake them up. I walked right on in here, punching around, and took my armor and left. I started randomly clipping with IDDT, while running and shooting to figure out which sectors actually wake up these monsters(I was still trying to get my first 100% run). I can see this being an issue with casual 100% players nilla. 

EDIT: On my second run, knowing how to wake up monsters for this trap I still managed to die with my game saved at the top of the elevator. Punching the air around top of elevator and halfway back through the long secret path does not wake up those monsters. I figured out the best way to get 100% kills easier was to save my game just outside of the secret entrance, punch the air, then have to travel through entire secret and down elevator, just to have monsters teleport in, while player is in room. Twice in a row that room was setup so that I would have had to eventually backtrack there, sleeping monsters will eventually teleport after player has visited room.

Maybe link this secret area to the monster closet, so player can wake them up manually from room they teleport to. 

DOOM18.png

 

Softlock Two easy archvile jumps gets up here, theres a softlock down there.  

DOOM22.png

 

This platform needs a double archvile jump. Technically possible...

DOOM23.png

 

MAP06:

Spoiler

 

Cannot 100% with backtracking.

Items in tiny hall on top of screenshot are blocked if player misses them, also that secret on bottom of screenshot. 

DOOM0000.png

 

A little tutti hiding in the dark and behind a lift.

DOOM25.png

 

Coop respawn at start?

DOOM0002.png

 

Softlock: Running too fast can let player fall into a void behind teleport.

DOOM0003.png

 

Archvile Jump VPO: Standing on this step, or window just behind step.

DOOM26.png

 

 

 

MAP07:

Spoiler

Demon doesnt wake up, probably auto-fixes on nodebuild.

DOOM0006.png

 

Can walk through these passible bars to stand on invisible balcony. Easy SR-50 from lift.

DOOM27.png

 

MAP08: 

Spoiler

100% backtracking block. Player can walk by line of items, impossible to get later.

DOOM37.png

 

MAP09:

Spoiler

VPO:

This wall has triggers to lower it usually right before it VPOs. When wall/door is up, player with all keys can backtrack to blue door teleport and go through red door. Cyberdemon seems to block the VPO route a bit decently so wont be triggered unless player casually explores awkward routes. 

Coop issue: Wall mainly blocks VPOs for singleplayer. 

DOOM41.png

Since this requires a specific route, heres a demo:

https://www.geocities.ws/c/a/catodemos/playtesting/TNT2_Beta/demos/tnt2_beta2-map09-VPO-cato.lmp

 

MAP10:

Spoiler

 

This feels similar to the issue on other maps of having monsters losing target after loading a vanilla savegame but, this visibly overlaps with a nodebuilder issue(I think): Greatly confusing two issues here, or maybe they overlap? 

 

I have noticed the vanilla issue of monsters losing target after a savegame is loaded sometimes is very extreme. The sectors that can wake up a monster closet can be so distant from the trigger that any casual player that died and reloaded a save by then will never have those monsters spawn in. Unless player is specifically looking for 100% kills and cannot find them. 

 

A MAP10 vanilla player saves game right before this teleport, or any point after the teleport until player can reach exit. If player dies, several mancs, archviles, and a horde of demons and zombiemen will never spawn in. 

DOOM47.png

This can easily be just a vanillaism, needing to link more sound sectors to monster closets. But I think nodebuilder stuff might also be involved in sleeping vanilla monster closets. Using IDDT I can wake up most of the monsters in this closet, the archviles on the far left stay asleep even though they are in sectors clearly connected.

DOOM45.png

In-game, the archviles did not feel noticeably delayed though. I really only noticed this trying to force some mancs to spawn in, and saw that some connected closet monsters did not start moving. 


Can probably ignore things in void:

Spoiler

 

Screenshot_2022-07-24_17-37-58.png

Last map had a tiny issue of monsters waking up, but quickly resolves...but I found random things on automap, that do not actually show up in game. Once those closet monsters were killed, these things on automap disappeared. 

DOOM0008.png

MAP10 also had a random thing in the void, though only visible on automap. More nodebuilder stuff?

DOOM0011.png

 

 

 

Other issue:

While there are seemingly large areas that could VPO, they are perfectly tamed down enough. A lot of archviles and invulnerability, but requires awkward route.

 

Backtrack 100% items:

These health bonuses can be skipped, player cannot come back. Other items up here do not count toward stat % so are fine.

DOOM54.png

  

MAP12:

Spoiler

VPO: 

This small platform VPOs. Barrel can be in front of distant door, blocking caco, which then blocks door open. Allowing caco to leave doorway, seems to make a small VPO timeframe as door is only opened once. Or maybe it happens while platforms are moving, while caco is also blocking door open. I stumbled on this one playing choco normally, so maybe is less rare. 

DOOM0017.png

 

Can block 100% kills.

The lines that trigger this spectre closet can be activated more than once, can eventually block teleport. A bit rare to trigger.

DOOM0020.png

 

Also above issue involves vanilla loadgames and monsters loosing focus. With multiple triggers, reloading a savegame will permanently lock that monster closet. 

 

I forgot if this was skill 2 or 3. Maybe just a vanilla thing anyway.

DOOM04.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Catoptromancy

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I found some issues with my MAP21 that might need some fixing.


 

Spoiler

 

- Both Thing 474 (Revenant) and Thing 542 (Imp) are flagged to medium setting.

- Same thing with Thing 475 (Revenant) and Thing 543 (Imp). 

 

-Linedefs 398, 65, 382, 1837, 1, 428, 707 and 2156 should have their texture changed from SUPPOR4W to SUPPORT6 to suggest to the player that those are lifts.

 

- Sector 405 has a mismatching ceiling and floor textures. Should be celing = Z_ADF016 and floor = ROCKMET2

 

- Sector 76 should not be counted as a secret sector as the secret is extremely random and arbitrary.

 

- Some additional automap cleaning required. 


 

 

I tried PM'ing people on the team to offer my opportunity to address these myself but I got no response. Hope someone on the team will be willing to do that for me.

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11 hours ago, Uni said:

I found some issues with my MAP21 that might need some fixing.


 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

- Both Thing 474 (Revenant) and Thing 542 (Imp) are flagged to medium setting.

- Same thing with Thing 475 (Revenant) and Thing 543 (Imp). 

 

-Linedefs 398, 65, 382, 1837, 1, 428, 707 and 2156 should have their texture changed from SUPPOR4W to SUPPORT6 to suggest to the player that those are lifts.

 

- Sector 405 has a mismatching ceiling and floor textures. Should be celing = Z_ADF016 and floor = ROCKMET2

 

- Sector 76 should not be counted as a secret sector as the secret is extremely random and arbitrary.

 

- Some additional automap cleaning required. 

 

 

 

 

 

I tried PM'ing people on the team to offer my opportunity to address these myself but I got no response. Hope someone on the team will be willing to do that for me.

 

Apologies that I haven't been clear about it, but I have been responsible for the compilation as of late. It's cool if you want to make the changes yourself. Just PM me the updated map when you have the chance. If you want us to make the changes that is fine too. Just let me know what you prefer.

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@lupinx-KassmanThanks for the reply, I wasn't trying to sound like a jerk or something. I'll do the changes myself and PM you as soon as I can. Possibly this weekend.

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Also, unsure if this is a bug with TNT2, or just gzdoom itself, but whenever there is a text screen while playing with gzdoom, the text screen music doesnt play, it only repeats the intermission music.

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2 hours ago, Tycitron said:

Also, unsure if this is a bug with TNT2, or just gzdoom itself, but whenever there is a text screen while playing with gzdoom, the text screen music doesnt play, it only repeats the intermission music.

It's a known problem with the GZDoom devbuild (something to do with the intermission refactor) and has been fixed, according to the bug thread on GZDoom forums.

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Posted (edited)

Hey guys, does anyone know how to grab the invulnerability (which counts as a secret) in map 6 Aquarium? Damn, I can't figure that out.

 

Really liking the WAD so far, looks polished and aesthetically pleasant.

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hello, im glad reading this reached already (already?) the beta testing

sadly i have barely free time, so forgive me the question, do I correctly run tnt as iwad + this wad? and complevel4 I guess. correct?

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Some more feedback - sorry I've been out of the loop. Played MAP12 in the first beta and switched to beta 2 afterwards because I forgot about the updates. Continued on HNTR.

 

MAP12: No problems here - almost thought the arch-vile was a bit much until I spotted the rocket launcher hidden behind the nearby pillars. Only spotted a bleeding texture in a couple of sectors (sectors 75 & 76 - sorry if this has already been addressed in beta 2):

 

Spoiler

760946628_IonFlux(1).png.803af29c3b6398d8457b0cf6b78acce3.png

 

MAP13: Almost felt there were too many Pain Elementals on easy, but given the large amount of rocket and shotgun ammo it made things much more manageable. The two arch-viles near the blue key were a bit of a scare, but thankfully block lines made them easier than they appeared to be. I don't think I have any real complaints about this one.

 

MAP14: It seems cruel to have two arch-viles (sector 813) teleport into the nukage pools for easy players; I would either just have one or none appear on the lowest difficulty. I might cut back slightly on the revenant usage for easy players.

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One final batch of feedback:

 

All levels played on DSDA-Doom complevel 4 UV with limited saves from a pistol start

  • MAP24
    • Super fun damaging floor gimmick here. I kinda feel that damaging floors as a gameplay mechanic only rarely are used to their full potential despite being super common in general. Having the pressure of a challengingly low amount of radsuits is a great way to shake up Doom’s gameplay. This map compares interestingly to the other mostly-damaging-floor-map I can think of – Skagway from UAC Ultra. While that map is a straightforward gauntlet, this one is really more of a puzzle box, with each of my attempts gradually getting me closer to unlocking an optimal route. Had a great time challenging myself (and succeeding) to do the map saveless, which played well with its puzzly nature.
  • MAP25
    • Yet another gloomly techbase map, with more laid back combat once again providing a great contrast to the previous level. A bit less distinctive than some of these other maps but still really enjoyable overall. The whole thing is oozing with atmosphere
    • Cool double switch motif. The alignment on this pair looks off tho
  • MAP26
    • :(
  • MAP27
    • One of my favorites of the wad. While the “2 versions of same map” gimmick isn’t totally original (I was going make a comment about how this might have been influenced by NEIS E4M2 until I realized there’s a much more obvious inspiration) I think this is the most successful attempt at it that I’ve played, with tons of cool connections between the 2 halves. The concept wasn’t totally obvious to me at first, but then I picked up the computer map, noticed the similarities between the 2 map halves, and then everything began to fit into place. Besides the overall concept I had a great time with the combat here, with it consistently putting up a challenge but never really being overwhelming, and loaded with nice set pieces
    • One of the best uses I’ve seen of the mordeth bridge effect here. This whole area around the raising water pool was one of my favorite sequences of the wad actually
    • More automap weirdness here with some random stray non-hidden lines showing up on it (after the computer area map is picked up IIRC). These have been common enough in the wad by this point that I recommend someone just going through and idbeholda-ing at the start of each map…
  • MAP28
    • Relatively low monster count, but I found this to be one of the wad’s hardest maps. A strong sense of tension runs throughout the map, with a tight health and ammo balance being complemented by level geometry that maximizes the danger of each enemy. Gameplay kinda reminded me of Dark Souls of all things. Probably my least favorite of this batch of maps (just found the start sequence a little annoying I guess), but, like, still really good
    • The double key setup of MAP10 is reused – also loving this wad’s commitment to optional areas
  • MAP29
    • A surprisingly straightforward and easy start here compared to the other Tarnsman maps in the wad, but the gameplay gradually ramps up here until it culminates in possibly the wad’s hardest sequence following the blue door. An excellent penultimate level for the wad, with some clear Evilution homages but still a unique identity.
    • FWIW I had pretty bad ammo problems in the big spider fight. If the archvile encounters precding it go poorly and they resurrect the Mancubuses you can get locked out of having enough to really deal with it. Besides this I really enjoyed this whole section, especially the use of crushers
  • MAP30
    • lol well this is something. A pretty cool map, not my favorite of the wad, but clearly an achievement in vanilla hackery and in-level storytelling, and overall a fitting ending
    • I think the story aspect of the map is its biggest strength, and at some points I feel the combat got in the way of it. I guess I wasn’t a big fan some of the gameplay here, finding it often more annoying really than challenging (the big ambush in the dark in the blood stream is an example of this). YMMV but I think the map would have been improved if the difficultly was toned down to allow the level’s atmosphere and narrative to remain more clearly in focus. Just because it's the final map doesn't mean it needs to be one of the hardest, and MAP29 already provided an excellent climax to the wad's gameplay challenge
    • Gotta love a good Team TNT logo sighting
    • Not a bug, but just wanted share the tragedy of this lost soul getting stuck in the void 😢
    • Great music here, kinda similar to the Doom 2 MAP30 midi actually. Wish more wads had ambient-leaning music like this
    • I found lupinx-Kassman’s plot synopsis post to be really helpful in actually explaining the story. While originally playing the level I thought the premise was doomguy getting shrunken down and Fantastic Voyage-ing it through some normal-sized person or demon’s body, which meant the final reveal was something of a… headscratcher (sorry). While I’m not opposed to ambiguous stories in general, I think have some of these plot details be made more clear could really enhance the experience of playing this map for the first time

Overall pretty awesome wad, totally worth the wait, and shaping up to be one of my favorites. Really loved how much variety there was, with nearly every map feeling like a unique experience dissimilar to anything else in the wad, yet with the wad being surprisingly cohesive as a whole. It was pretty interesting seeing the varying interpretations of what makes TNT maps what they are, whether it being a prevalence of doom cute, a haunting atmosphere, an intimidating sense of scale, or a blast through a brightly lit techbase. One fortunate way the wad clearly differs from Evilution is that it's final 3rd was its strongest, with a really incredible string of closing levels starting from around MAP22 and never letting up.   

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On 5/29/2022 at 11:33 PM, (S)pain said:

Hey guys, does anyone know how to grab the invulnerability (which counts as a secret) in map 6 Aquarium? Damn, I can't figure that out.

 

Really liking the WAD so far, looks polished and aesthetically pleasant.

Ok, I managed to figure it out. Oh lord it was incredibly difficult! Very clever design. Really liking the WAD so far. Also, I apologize if this is not the place to request help for walkthrougs, I'm new.

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On 5/31/2022 at 12:57 AM, blob1024 said:

sadly i have barely free time, so forgive me the question, do I correctly run tnt as iwad + this wad? and complevel4 I guess. correct?

Yep, since the thread's original post says that TNT2 is vanilla compatible, I'm pretty sure that means it's designed for complevel 4, and the TNT's IWAD + TNT2 PWAD combination required to run TNT2 is also needed.

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Complevel 4, yes. It is not limit-removing, so it should run fine in Chocolate Doom and such. 

Even DOS .exe is supported to extend, although there are some maps that may crash at the moment.

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Really awesome WAD so far, I'm entering map 19 right now. Some secrets are reeeeeally evil, like the Green Armor in map 18. Good job to the developers.

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Also i am not sure if this is a bug that you guys can fix but thought id share, but in a recent playthrough i did with Crispy Doom i some how got into a noclip-like state  that put me (and the demons) outside the map in map19, during the part where you are in the linear hallways that op en up to reveal monsters in the throwback tunnels.

Screenshot (142).png

Screenshot (143).png

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20 hours ago, Tycitron said:

Also i am not sure if this is a bug that you guys can fix but thought id share, but in a recent playthrough i did with Crispy Doom i some how got into a noclip-like state  that put me (and the demons) outside the map in map19, during the part where you are in the linear hallways that op en up to reveal monsters in the throwback tunnels.

That's the all-ghosts effect, a rare bug that usually occurs randomly. Although I haven't played the level in question, I'd wager it's not fixable.

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https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9nX-nszGzKvSUlOVWZBNWJHUm8/view?usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-EZpXYvELYtE_9aHAXMD90g

Slightly edited "Till Next Time.mid" slightly because the buildup is too slow for a text screen.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sT97ue5k6QWZGF4wv9ale4bOJKLKcv3p/view?usp=sharing

I combined the songs "TriNiTy" and "TreNT didn't survive" because it seemed like an acceptable alternative to using the first song on a shorter map. Devilution has no short maps and that's probably not a good thing.

 

Also probably not a good thing: reusing MIDIs for multiple levels. I'm aware it was a deliberate decision but I feel like no one playing or reviewing this megaWAD will say, "That was an interesting creative decision to use this song in two different maps." More likely they'll say, "Why does a megaWAD that took 15 years to make not have a full soundtrack?" Given the large amount of expansive wandering maps, the last thing Devilution needs is less variety.

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6 hours ago, Bucket said:

I feel like no one playing or reviewing this megaWAD will say, "That was an interesting creative decision to use this song in two different maps."

I will!

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Once? You heard a song looped 30 times in a previous map and then you're going to hear it another 30 times.

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7 hours ago, Bucket said:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9nX-nszGzKvSUlOVWZBNWJHUm8/view?usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-EZpXYvELYtE_9aHAXMD90g

Slightly edited "Till Next Time.mid" slightly because the buildup is too slow for a text screen.

 

I think the buildup was added in after the first or second beta? It does fit the text screen now, yeah.

 

It's also the Map32's music now. I liked the original Map32 music more, but it's the mapper's choice, so I can't say too much, heh.

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