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Thedoctor989

Wolf 3d game in 2019

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Posted (edited)

hi,I've been thinking as the uprise of new games being based off of retro classics, would a wolfenstien 3d game which takes a older Arcade classic and brings it to 3d, with modern controls and other various new features, from a gamer POV will it be well received or will it be a total blunder.

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There are plenty of Wolfenstien clones over the past few years. If you're going to make a 3D game, I recommend differences in height and floor. It makes levels feel fresh.

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so would it be possible to use the Doom engine without any resources, but the ability to import all my resources, (not a patch but a iwad)

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Posted (edited)

There are already a number of indie games that play very similar to Wolfenstein 3D (some of which are even direct clones) and they've been coming out the last several years. This isn't to say you couldn't make your own, however you might want to do something super crazy to stand out.

If you had 3D models and modern day mechanics like aim down sights and such stuck in a Wolf3D style 90 degree maze levels, it might be super jarring and not too great. Think of how it was done in The New Order/The Old Blood; looks great as a small easter egg, wouldn't be great for an entire game.

 

You can absolutely use GZDoom to create your own standalone game as well. A few different projects are doing this, mine included.

Adventures of Square is a good example of a game doing this. You can also use 3D models in GZDoom instead of sprites.

If you end up going this route, its a good idea to think of what you are doing with it commercially. If you are making a game very similar to Doom in the same engine and are asking money for it, that's totally fine, but there will always be the stigma of "why should I pay for this when there's tons of free mods/games that do something similar".

 

Freedoom is the best way to start making your own project. You can use all the assets and iwad as placeholder to test and send out your game with it still being completely legal.

Edited by wheresthebeef

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37 minutes ago, wheresthebeef said:

A few different projects are doing this, mine included. Adventures of Square

You worked on Adventures of Square? That's awesome. Even to this day, I'm impressed with what BigBrik Games did with id Tech 1.

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There's this game called Intrude on steam. It's a lot like Wolf3d but in some aspects it looks more basic (believe it or not) than the 1992 game. Enemies for example.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/13/2019 at 8:05 PM, UNERXAi said:

There's this game called Intrude on steam. It's a lot like Wolf3d but in some aspects it looks more basic (believe it or not) than the 1992 game. Enemies for example.

 

I played through some of that game. It was boring and forgettable. We had a thread here a while ago talking about Wolfenstein 3D clones.

 

 

Edited by Ajora

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Posted (edited)

Super Wolfenstein HD was pretty good. I'm quite amazed they didn't get a lawsuit considering its from the makers of BroForce and well... they're using the Wolfenstein name.

 

Wow factor? Different floor and ceiling types. Bigger enemies, better colors, more diversity.

 

Quirky weapons people can have fun with, why does it have to be human Nazis? Aliens, creatures, demons, bears... all in Nazi costumes. Let the player punch some human Nazis in the face. Different environments. Why does it always have to be a Nazi complex and not a cavern with slaves using lava to build a giant mech? Underwater shark base that's slowly flooding, but the catch is it's built in the side of a mountain so you finally get out to discover you're high in the sky. Air fortress and you get a jet pack. Motorcycle gun fight through an autumn forest up a mountain that turns into icy path before its end. Drive a tank through the streets to point the turret at Nazi HQ to blow a hole in the wall.

 

This doesn't even have to be in game. That's what cut scenes are for. Use MS Paint, make it happen!

 

There have been so many Wolfenstein 3D remakes that they all blend together. I'm even talking about the true remakes rather than generic Steam shovelware. It took me so long just to find Super Wolfenstein HD.

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I wouldn't see the point. Wolf is so basic that I can't think of any way it'd benefit from a modern upgrade.

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On 3/13/2019 at 3:27 PM, Thedoctor989 said:

hi,I've been thinking as the uprise of new games being based off of retro classics, would a wolfenstien 3d game which takes a older Arcade classic and brings it to 3d, with modern controls and other various new features, from a gamer POV will it be well received or will it be a total blunder.

 

 

There are various retro style fps on the market or in the making, and you should look at them. If they are successful, or show some serious potential, none of them try to mimic the beginning of those 90ies fps. Instead they aim for the kind of games which where on the peak of the 90ies fps. Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, Quake. These are the games where all the 90ies nostalgia came from, and there are reasons for that.

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1 hour ago, Thedoctor989 said:

so people dislike wolf 3d now or is it because everyone started remaking Clones of it?

I can't speak for anyone else here, but for me, Wolfenstein is too archaic to play. It's dull compared to everything else because there is no height variety and its all flat. With that said, I'd much rather play Wolfenstein 3D or even Super Noah's Ark 3D than any modern Wolf clone. The clones suck and try too much to be Wolfenstein, but with different art. If you can't make a game that's better that improves something from 20 years ago... keep working.

 

Come up with a better pitch than modern controls. There are source ports for Wolfenstein 3D that would already do that. Art would also help visualize the idea and make it better received. :-)

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Thedoctor989 said:

so people dislike wolf 3d now or is it because everyone started remaking Clones of it?

I think it's because you are asking on a Doom forum, and people here tend to perceive Wolf3D as wrong or inferior, principally if you're trying to create a Doom map (which makes sense, in this case). I've seen the same behavior on Quake foruns regarding Doom as well.

 

Personally, I LOVE Wolf3D clones and I don't see anything wrong with them. Yes, some are better, others are worse, as any other genre. Blake Stone is one of my favorite shooters of all time. Corridor 7 and Nitemare 3D are also very good. For newer titles, I bought Merger 3D and I liked a lot (it's not perfect, but fun nonetheless), there is LAB (the newgrounds version) which you can play for free and of course, some high quality mods like Batman vs Bane, Green Arrow and Operation Eisenfaust - Origins.


Wolf3D style games are very unique. I like the colorful, almost surreal look, adlib sound effects and the cute decorations all over the place. The gameplay is not different - it works like a 3D rendition of Gauntlet, but with hitscanners. I think it's still very valuable even today.

(sorry any english mistake)

Edited by Noiser

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I don't think much of the dislike is Wolf3d itself, but instead the numerous games made in its image that are frankly, not that good. Intrude comes to mind as one of the worst offenders if only because it was highly hyped up, but ultimately the game was a fairly short romp through 15 relatively small levels with very little enemy variety (Wolf3d might have only had five enemies, but they at least all had distinct looks and sounds, and even though four of them carry guns they use them differently enough to add some interest: An SS guard gets your blood rushing because if he opens fire, he can easily kill you. Brown guards are dangerous, but you're also generally more confident you can take a shot with them. Compare this to Intrude, where the enemies look mostly the same and make the same sounds). I remember a friend being really excited to try it only to be so. utterly. disappointed when he actually played it. And he loved wolf3d!

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5 hours ago, geo said:

I can't speak for anyone else here, but for me, Wolfenstein is too archaic to play. It's dull compared to everything else because there is no height variety and its all flat. With that said, I'd much rather play Wolfenstein 3D or even Super Noah's Ark 3D than any modern Wolf clone. The clones suck and try too much to be Wolfenstein, but with different art. If you can't make a game that's better that improves something from 20 years ago... keep working.

 

Come up with a better pitch than modern controls. There are source ports for Wolfenstein 3D that would already do that. Art would also help visualize the idea and make it better received. :-)

 

I find it surprising just how unpopular Wolfenstein 3D and Wolfenstein 3D modding are here, even though I can understand what people are saying. So many people here feel pretty much exactly the same way about Wolfenstein 3D as I do about Catacomb 3D, in that it's a crucial chapter in computer gaming history but hasn't aged well and isn't enjoyable to play for more than 10 minutes at a time. I find that Wolfenstein 3D's gameplay holds up extremely well, and is a highly replayable, thrilling, and well-balanced game. There are times when I fancy playing it over Doom. 

 

I find that 85% of Wolfenstein 3D clones are uninspired and dull, but I always have a good time when I check out a new ECWolf Total Conversion or Mappack. 

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This is only kinda sorta related but there are even more clones listed here: 

 

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Posted (edited)

For the sake of reference:
 

 

On 3/15/2019 at 3:37 PM, SaladBadger said:

 I remember a friend being really excited to try it only to be so. utterly. disappointed when he actually played it. And he loved wolf3d!


I didn't like Intrude as well. The stages are very repetitive, even for a Wolf3D clone. I had more fun with Merger 3D (which also needs a better bestiary, but have some decent stages and more varied textures). There is another one, CTHON, that I want to try very soon. Looks interesting, but a bit slower-paced.

@Thedoctor989:
I'm very happy with this Wolf3D renaissance, but I agree that we still don't have a big name, something truly remarkable. This is why I think you don't need to leave the 90º grid-based design (or any other remarkable Wolf3D feature). Instead, I would recommend some in-game improvements, like new gimmicks: Blake Stone introduced friendly NPCs, food machines, traps, switches and an elevator system. There is a lot more that can be explored. Also, more interesting enemies with unique attacks that requires more than just cover and shoot. Doom 2 is a great example of this.

Finally, a decent art style with good use of colors and varied textures. Make different locations, maybe thematic episodes... Just look how boring Intrude looks. It's a problem with a lot of these games imo. And if you want some nostalgic flavor, learn more about old DOS graphics. Some games like Gun Godz or Intrude doesn't look authentic enough (the art is too low-res even for a DOS game). At the same time, you can add things like dynamic lighting, open-gl renderer, filters and such, but make them all toggleable so people can choose what they prefer (including low-resolution options or software-mode). Ion Maiden and DUSK made a great job with this.

Edited by Noiser

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On 3/15/2019 at 4:54 AM, Thedoctor989 said:

so people dislike wolf 3d now or is it because everyone started remaking Clones of it?

 

Wolfenstein 3D's gameplay and engine are primitive and limited compared to what you could get out of Doom or Quake. You'd have to do something really unique and awesome with it to lift it up.

Look at Rise of the Triad. It added heights, objects you could walk under and over, jumppads, multiple characters with different stats, some ridiculous weapons, and multiplayer. It added a lot of new content on top of the Wolf3D engine (which is fitting since it started as a Wolf3D sequel).

Now look at games like Corridor 7 or Operation Bodycount. They are pretty much just reskins of Wolf3D that add nothing new.

 

I do think there would be something to making another Rise of the Triad style game again, even with Wolf3D's engine limitations. Going out and buying costumes and prop guns and taking photos for sprites and textures and making a ridiculously over the top game is something I've played with.

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15 hours ago, wheresthebeef said:

Now look at games like Corridor 7 or Operation Bodycount. They are pretty much just reskins of Wolf3D that add nothing new.


Not true. Corridor 7 have a lot of features that doesn't existed in Wolf3D (a multiplayer mode, a randomizer mode, the killing system, automap, interactive interfaces (including enemy alarms), ammo machines, armor, regeneration rooms, the visor abilities, mines, invulnerability, cloacked enemies, deathmatch arenas, etc). Maybe you don't have played this game in a long time.

Bodycount also have some quirks I guess, but I'm less familiarized with this game.

Edited by Noiser

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16 minutes ago, Noiser said:


Not true. Corridor 7 have a lot of features that doesn't existed in Wolf3D (a multiplayer mode, a randomizer mode, the killing system, inventory, automap, interactive interfaces (including enemy alarms), ammo machines, armor, regeneration rooms, the visor abilities, mines, invulnerability, cloacked enemies, deathmatch arenas, etc). Maybe you don't have played this game in a long time.

Bodycount also have some quirks I guess, but I'm less familiarized with this game.

 

While you're absolutely correct about Corridor 7's features, the look alone is hardly a selling point: https://www.google.com/search?q=Corridor+7&client=firefox-b-1-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9moDtoInhAhVnw4MKHY_3DHMQ_AUIDigB&biw=1366&bih=654

 

Flat surfaces... flat surfaces... flat surfaces... So from looks alone... all I see is another Wolfenstein 3D reskin that gives me no desire to play it. Corridor 7 mixes in perfectly with the modern Wolf clones that tend to be terrible games and why bother playing them when Wolfenstein 3D if famous and better. I don't want people to fall into that trap of dull looking levels.

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You just don't like Wolf3D clones. Simple as that. There is nothing wrong with them visually.

As I said, people here tend to consider them inferior because it's not Doom. It's not suppose to be like Doom, or it would be a "Doom clone" like Heretic or Strife.

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12 minutes ago, Noiser said:

You just don't like Wolf3D clones. Simple as that. There is nothing wrong with them visually.

As I said, people here tend to consider them inferior because it's not Doom. It's not suppose to be like Doom, or it would be a "Doom clone" like Heretic or Strife.

On the plus side, you've made me want to pay Corridor 7 despite the screenshots.

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1 hour ago, geo said:

On the plus side, you've made me want to pay Corridor 7 despite the screenshots.

 

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. 

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I am really weird in this. I have never beat a Wolfenstein game (even the new ones). But I really like this similar game Cthon: https://store.steampowered.com/app/595100/CTHON/

I think atmosphere in a game means more to me than a typical gamer, and Cthon has loads of it. I can understand some people not liking the simplicity of this game, as the screen shots of it is really all you get. But it just has charm to me.
 

 

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10 hours ago, geo said:

On the plus side, you've made me want to pay Corridor 7 despite the screenshots.

I can't say if it's your thing, but it's a great game (not better than Blake Stone though). I recommend the CD version that have extra content, including more weapons, levels and cd audio.

Edited by Noiser

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Wolf 3D is too simple and boring for me. I think it was tech-demo. It helped ID Software to advance and make something cool as Doom.

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Wolf-3D was a revolutionary game, but it has aged horribly. Even as someone who likes doom and other old school games, Wolf-3D is just too simple and archaic. And thus when I tried playing it, I simply gave up after E1M5-ish.

 

16 hours ago, Noiser said:

As I said, people here tend to consider them inferior because it's not Doom.

 

And they have a good reason to do so. It doesn't matter how many cool gimmicks a Wolf-3D clone has, the level design will always be a letdown and the biggest bottleneck. The levels will always be just mazes. While the best Wolf-3d clones might be better than the worst Doom clones, the Doom clones on average have aged much much better.

 

I made a "Heretic vs Rise of the Triad" thread a few months ago:

 

Heretic is just a "above-average" Doom clone and ROTT is arguably "the best" Wolf-3d clone. And yet Heretic won by a 4:1 ratio. 

One simply cannot make levels like those in Eviternity or Ancient Aliens on a Wolf-3d clone.

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