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SoggyPinecone.

DOOM 3 "Hate"?

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On 3/25/2019 at 12:30 AM, Dark Pulse said:

...and an emphasis on basically never really letting the player feel like he's the master in control of the situation.

To me, that's by far the biggest thing. When I clear a room, I want it to stay cleared! And the corpses should stay - showing my work!

 

I would have liked to have seen more:

  • green temples
  • Alien ruins
  • caves, and other low-tech stuff - shadows would be awesome in caves, maybe lit with torches
  • abstract areas
  • Go back to Earth! That would've been awesome!
  • More water and slime
  • Frozen areas?
  • Fly around in the transport

I loved Doom 3 - I just wish the level had more variety like Doom+Doom II. Still a fun, solid game.

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If fun action and creepy horror was on two separate ends of a dial, I would say Doom 3 was cranked to horror and Doom 2016 at action while classic Doom fits more in the middle leaning towards action.

 

So Doom 3 failed to meet nostalgia and action gameplay which are iconic in their own right in Doom. That's a big disappointment for many. And as a game it's terribly repetitive in the first half. The poor gunplay and slow pace to boot only makes it worse.

 

I understand why people don't like the game and I rarely see myself re-installing it. But the game is fine imo. Although I found the alpha leak more engaging.

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It's funny, people tout about the Doom Bible sucking goat's shit, whilst saying that Romero and John Carmack were holy gods, despite the fact that Romero originally sided with Tom, and Carmack just wanted to work on his game engine, and use a basic game to show his fancy engine off. Then ten year's later John reads the Doom Bible decides it's great, now has the average computer tech to work with, and tell's Kevin Cloud, the right man in the wrong job to fill the rest of the dots in, retcon the originals, and set it on Mars, despite him and Adrian hating the idea, and wanting something, completely new and fresh. Queue Trent Reznor being friends of iD, decides "Hey! Can I come too?" they say yes, in the early years of development, and he makes the sound production kickarse, and actually scary, next minute bam: too much shit on his plate, his manager wants top dollar, he's busy with his albums, and tours, and he fucks off, queue last minute change of some dudes who have no damn clue what they are doing, and they make a newer sound design, destroying a lot of the punch the weapons had despite their weak power.


Not much else I can say, but I understand and support the reason why the flashlight is there (it's called resource management) and why the level design took the more linear, "horror funhouse" route, and why the weapons kinda suck (it's horror, the player should be represented as a little mushroom with little control, not an Achillean angel of death)

Also, franchises and things change, for good, if every game, and movie followed the same formula from beginning to end we wouldn't have Terminator 2, Aliens, System Shock 2, Age of Mythology, Fallout: New Vegas, and Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. Doom 3 was a good game, and a good Doom game, it just didn't play like one, but it sure as hell did feel like one in it's atmosphere, and design.

Of course I still prefer the original over all.
 

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As a game: The atmosphere is good, but the gunplay isn't that fun. Also, I'm not a big fan of survival horror games, so my view is a bit biased.

As a DOOM game: Nope. Not even close.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/25/2019 at 6:30 AM, Dark Pulse said:

Simply put, it didn't feel like Doom.

 

Reading your post again (and specifically this sentence), I'd actually say it definitely does feel like Doom, but the real problem is that it simply doesn't play like one.

 

I could have forgiven all its shortcomings and especially its predictable nature if the combat was simply better and the weapons were more satisfying to use.

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2 hours ago, seed said:

 

Reading your post again (and specifically this sentence), I'd actually say it definitely does feel like Doom, but the real problem is that it simply doesn't play like one.

 

I could have forgiven all its shortcomings and especially its predictable nature if the combat was simply better and the weapons were more satisfying to use.

I guess if your definition of "feeling like Doom" is more about the setting and atmosphere, then sure.

 

For me, though, that includes how it plays, and as you pointed out, it very much fails in combat and in making you feel like you're in control of how the encounter plays out. Sure, once in awhile you get the pickup that you know is trapped, but you're also just as likely to get next to no warning before something gates in, and then you're stuck with having to deal with it, often in a pretty dark area, and with positioning that puts you at a disadvantage.

 

Doom is great at making you feel like you control the combat. Doom 3 is great at making you feel like you have no control of the combat, which is great for horror, but not so great for "feeling like Doom."

 

And then to top it off, the combat in Doom 3 doesn't feel great, either.

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I'd go as far as to say it's not great as a survival horror game either. Going from the Resident Evils, Silent Hills, and Clocktower to this, there's something extremely surface-level and juvenile about the horror (scary babies! big tiddy spider ladies! dante didn't pay his light bill!) and it really makes me wonder if id was even aware of these other games existing when they set out to make a horror title. The gameplay loop itself doesn't inspire much tension. Level layouts are still like some of the more linear Doom levels, enemies walk out of closets and compartments that make no sense, there's very little route calculation or risk/reward for moving through certain areas versus avoiding others.

 

Even the combat is still structured like an action game, it's just really clumsy so it's easy to forget. There's no shooting demons in the legs to cripple them, no slipping into darkness to hide from enemies. They're all the same mindless targets from Doom 2 that walk towards you and shoot. Only now it doesn't feel good, and they just go through their animations while eating bullets until they spontaneously die. The pinky demon by all means should be a horrible monster you go out of your way to avoid, bypassing the rooms it has access to if you can. Instead it's another big dumb action monster you get locked in with and have to shoot in the face with your LED space rifle.

 

Ammo is scarce, but there's not much in the way to conserve it other than "don't miss," since enemies can't be bypassed. They'll just follow you forever and box you into the next scripted spawn-in combat sequence.

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Posted (edited)

I didn't hate Doom 3, but I was one of its most vocal critics IRL if not on these forums. There are a few reasons and they're linked:

 

1. Basically, they fired Tom Hall when making the first Doom because they thought his idea was crap. Then when Doom 3 came around, they made Tom Hall's game. Ok! This'll be a classic then.

 

2. It doesn't feel like Doom.

Number one, they redesigned not only the appearance but also the behaviour of the monsters. This changed the game from being run-and-gun to getting bogged down chasing Imps. When did you ever chase monsters in classic Doom? They were faceplanting into walls to reach you. Doom 4 vastly improved on Doom 3's visual style while paying homage to it. I felt that was a brave (and therefore respectable) decision to be honest, like JJ Abrams Trek films constantly referring to Star Trek Enterprise, the franchise failure. It didn't make me want to play Doom 3 again.

 

3. It was as derivative as you can get.

Reload your guns just like Halo and Call of Duty. The dreaded and functionally worthless (in a run and gun game) stamina bar slowed you to a crawl like any other mortal. The missions were stuff we'd already seen a hundred times such as the contrived "Meet up with Bravo Team, oh we can't spoil the game with/be arsed to program AI for helpers so they're all dead, thanks for wasting an hour". Want to fight the Spider Mastermind? Want to kick the devil's arse and seal hell forever? Want to clip through a wall and introduce Romero's nose to your forehead? How about generic science man instead? If I want to see a mad genius try to take over the universe, I can watch any of 33,305,967 films, or Pinky and the Brain.

 

4. It was scripted as hell where I would argue the original game featured emergent gameplay, as no two playthroughs of it are ever the same. It's possible for all manner of chaos to go off, and this is super-prevalent in co-op mode. People who neglected Doom co-op missed the most hilarious and terrifying experience in the game. By contrast, Doom 3 lacked any meaningful reason to play again. This point is basically an extension of point 3.

 

5. The weapons lacked any sense of impact: no visceral, immensely satisfying boom of a super shotgun in a Baron's face; no Barons either, bye-bye iconic character. The weapons sounded rather weedy. The Doom Marine has skinny arms made of clay or something, my own physique is more intimidating.

 

6. It took miles too long to get to hell.

Who gives a toss about alpha labs, beta labs, monorail, this is boring and takes us to another bunch of identical rooms. Hell itself is pretty much worth the entire game, but then we are in alien pyramids... what is this obsession with associating the demons of hell with aliens, an attempt to link into the novels? Sorry but when the world has epic scifi heroes named Ripley, Hudson and Vasquez, do we really want characters named Flynne, Arlene and Buddy? Are they names that Americans think are cool or something?

 

7. Half the monsters were missing. And some of them would still be missing from Doom 4, because Technology Is Improving and Modern Is Better.

 

8. Doom 3 was so linear, generic and disappointing I couldn't be arsed to play the DLC... which was supposedly better than the main game.

 

The positives: Well it was scary at times, Hell was epic but hugely under-utilised. Oh and it was VERY cool that monsters in Hell seemed tougher and scarier than those in our universe, I'd have liked the series to have taken this further.

 

Sorry to Doom 3 fans but this was supposed to be a Doom game and it ended up being Scary Halo or something.

Edited by MajorRawne

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I loved Doom 3! i know this is random, but i'm sculpting a statue of an Imp from Doom 3, and I was wondering, would any of you be interested in having one? If not, it's all good. Just thought I'd throw it out there. I can post pictures of the in-progress shots if you'd like. 

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i played doom 3 on the original xbox, and i loved it. the combat was thrilling, the flashlight was a very good weapon i switched to ofter just for the damage it does, and the graphics were great! the controlls were pretty good too. left trigger to run, just how i like my classic doom games to play. you could even bind weapons to the d-pad! the narritive is very nice, with great voice acting. and the pda hunting is serves the same purpose as key hunting. the shotgun is very satisfying to use, if you keep moving. that being said, you still have to keep moving so that you dont die, and it is important to switch weapons in the correct situation. it plays very much like a doom game, but the horror aspect has been turned up. which is great! unless you see them coming. if you play the game at a slow pace, you're playing the game wrong. you need to run around, ducking and dodging imp fireballs, and jump frequently to avoid being hit. and the chainsaw is overpowered on the xbox version. although the cyberdemon could be improved by making it so the soul cube makes it vulnerable to attack.

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If someone hates BFG Edition, i fully understand because it's embarrassing version of Doom 3. Original Doom 3 kicks ass, just some people cries for it not being like Doom 1-2. Or even Doom 3 made some players fulfill their pants.

I agree that Doom 1-2 is more fun than D3, but D3 is damn tough and cool. Shotgun against long distance target is like fishing rod against pack of bears, but that gunny is enjoyable when you master it.

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The movement is slow and clunky. It is much harder to avoid attacks from enemies in this game because all the corridors are too tight and the player is too slow. Its gunplay is the least satisfying of any id game. Its focus on plot is not necessarily a bad thing but the plot was just uninspiring and boring. The graphics are decent enough but the lighting is terrible. Monster closets are also not fun. Having to read PDAs to work things out is also not fun. It's too slow.

If it were called anything but "Doom" it probably would have been ok.

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Basic things that define the gameplay were unpolished. Not satisfying enough blood particles and weapon sounds , slow player movement and (at least half of the game) not that much action. Plus you totally need to read the PDAs for the codes which stopped the gameplay. Even footsteps sounds are all the same. Mars surface is steel.

 

If you fix/remove those problems believe me it's all great.  There are mods though that fixed these problems.

 

I like the graphics / lightning. They are still good today too. It's like if you strip the newer 2016 game of all the new modern graphical features you're left with Doom 3 style UAC but with bigger arenas.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

the people who complain about it not "feeling like Doom" I wonder how would you have translated a game that was basically a mechanic (same mechanic from Wolf3D or Blake Stone, with different, better graphics) into 2004, an era where you had plots, NPCs, talking characters, and more.

 

I always remember the complaints "the original Doom wasn't scary", "the original Doom was about gunning down 1.000.000 enemies at once from every direction"

I have very nice replies to both those, that I will omit here not to look like old and grumpy.

 

 

EDIT: btw I like very much Doom 3. I miss it and then I reinstall it and replay it pretty often. Even when it has its flaws

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Doom 3 is somewhat competent at what it set out to accomplish, which is creepy, spooky, horror stuff.

Unfortunately it falls apart when you look under the hood:

-Stamina mechanic gets in the way of progression much more often than it is interesting, let alone relevant, as a combat mechanic.

-A lot of pretty "meh" jumpscare moments that are simply there to drain a bit of health on first play, while being utterly useless on a second run

-repeated PDA listening or reading sessions to get codes for lockers.

-Underwhelming final boss (both Doom 3 and resurrection of evil)

 

Frankly, if you reskinned Doom 3 as let's say an Aliens kinda game, and showed it to somebody who never played Doom 3, there's no doubt in my mind that they'd never even think they were playing a reskinned game, let alone that it was a reskinned Doom game. Strip Doom 3 of its visual assets and replace them, there's no Doom left anymore when you compare it to Doom 2. Even when you compare Doom 3 to Doom16 it's nothing alike, since Doom16's gameplay isn't anywhere near as slow paced. So in a series of relatively fast paced shooters, Doom 3 sticks out like a sore thumb as far as I'm concerned.

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I don't like "fast paced shooters". I love Doom 3, and Doom 2016's "push forward" combat is something I can do without. Even Doom 1 and 2 were not "push forward".

 

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I'm currently replaying Doom 3 for the first time in probably 5 years or so and I still consider it one of my favorite games of all time.  It's aged much better than Half Life 2 (it's main competition) in my opinion.  I remember buying it the day it came out and I was completely blown away by its visuals.  The only thing out at the time that could even come close to comparing was the original Far Cry.  I would say it pretty much set the graphical standard until F.E.A.R came out and surpassed it.

 

If there's one weakness, I'd say there was too much emphasis on story for a Doom game.  However I didn't find that to be too much of an issue once you get through the first level.

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On 4/7/2019 at 3:23 PM, MajorRawne said:

Reload your guns just like Halo and Call of Duty.

Yeah, stupid Halo and CoD, they invented reloading!

 

No, but seriously almost every single FPS out after 1999 had reloading. Had iD not introduced reloading people would have probably complained about "this game suckzs deres no reloading, THUMS DOWN!1!!!!!!111"

Also, reloading as a mechanic isn't bad at all, less so in a game about horror.

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By the way, I love Doom 3's lore. The reason they keep rocket launchers around on the Mars base, is so that they can blow up toxic waste with them...

... Yes, really.

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Posted (edited)

Try playing the original Doom 3, not BFG -- you'll have to choose between:

 

- having your flashlight out so you can see where the heck you're going... but the battery lasts forever instead of a nearly meaningless drain

- having your weapon out so you can take three times as many shots to kill that enemy as it should take

- using the duct tape mod to, despite there being no duct tape on Mars, tape a smaller light to your smaller guns

 

My headcanon is that the Doom 3 marine is *not* the Doom Slayer we know from Doom 1 (and maybe 2, depending on which version's manual/backstory you want to believe). After all, you're on Mars itself, not Phobos or Deimos. Your weapons don't work as well because, well, you're not part of the Blazkowicz family. You don't have the bloodline of heroes and whatever in-universe "magic" or "blessing" that bestows (remember, Wolfenstein had magic artifacts and all that, and Romero and Hall confirmed the protagonists from Commander Keen, Wolfenstein, and Doom are all related).

 

Turns out... demons have 5/ resist against bullets. :P

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54 minutes ago, Noiser said:

Idk. Tom Hall didn't made Doomguy. And Romero doesn't said anything about him.

 

...what.

 

https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Tom_Hall

 

Quote

Tom A. Hall is a Wisconsin-born game designer who, along with John Romero, John Carmack, and Adrian Carmack was a co-founder of id Software.

...

Hall was originally the creative director and lead game designer for Doom, and is the author of the Doom Bible, the original 1992 design plan for the game. Although he lost his job after various disputes with John Carmack over the design of the game, numerous elements of his documentation carried over into the release of the game.

Quote

Mechanical Sanity‏ @Michael64084977 29 Jan 2018

There's a theory going around that Blascawiz is Keens father and keen is Doomguy's father. this was later confirmed in the doom RPG series, but I need confirmation from the Legend himself.

 

●︎ 𝚝𝚑𝚊𝚝 𝚝𝚘𝚖 𝚑𝚊𝚕𝚕 ●︎ ✪‏ @ThatTomHall

Replying to @Michael64084977 @romero

The lineage isn't a theory. Fact. And I think you have one generation off, there.

6:53 AM - 30 Jan 2018

 

𝕵𝖔𝖍𝖓 𝕽𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖗𝖔‏Verified account @romero 30 Jan 2018

Replying to @ThatTomHall @Michael64084977

Blazkowicz is Keen's grandfather. Which makes you wonder: why is Keen's Dad not some badass hero? Who IS he? WHAT is he? Only @ThatTomHall can say.

 

If you check the characters section of the Doom Bible, you'll see that the final protagonist is a mix of Dimitri Paramo's happiness and skill with weapons, Lorelei Chen and Thi Barrets' speed, John Pietrovich's insubordination (though for different reasons more derivable from Thi Barret's sense of honor), and Buddy Dacote's general appearance (aside from eye color). So... yeah, it's probably due more to inertia than anything, but Tom Hall had a role in everything.

 

Romero didn't need to say anything about the Doom Slayer (silly canon name, but hey), he was only inputting the one missing detail. He specifically fingers Hall as the creator of Blazkowicz, and thus as the guy who made the know to be in.

 

It's not like it's a single author who got too big for her britches and decided she didn't need an editor anymore, then took her book series off the rails and came back a decade later with something completely unforeshadowed. It's multiple people confirming the more-or-less "show, don't tell" linkages via Easter Eggs (Doom II's infamous MAP32: Grosse, Quake and Quake II's respective Dopefish, and Quake 3's zombified Dopefish...thing, and Doom 2016's appearance of a Commander Keen helmet on a skull, and a Doom keycard showing up in Quake Live) and full-on appearances with canon-compliant explanation (Quake 3: Arena).

 

As such, I think we can take the people responsible for the creation of the respective franchises at their word on this.  :P

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, bpeterson said:

If you check the characters section of the Doom Bible, you'll see that the final protagonist is a mix of Dimitri Paramo's happiness and skill with weapons, Lorelei Chen and Thi Barrets' speed, John Pietrovich's insubordination (though for different reasons more derivable from Thi Barret's sense of honor), and Buddy Dacote's general appearance (aside from eye color). So... yeah, it's probably due more to inertia than anything, but Tom Hall had a role in everything.

Still, not the Doomguy.

 

Quote

It's multiple people confirming the more-or-less "show, don't tell" linkages via Easter Eggs (Doom II's infamous MAP32: Grosse, Quake and Quake II's respective Dopefish, and Quake 3's zombified Dopefish...thing, and Doom 2016's appearance of a Commander Keen helmet on a skull, and a Doom keycard showing up in Quake Live)

As you said, these are easter-eggs... you know, as some sort of joke. Or do you think the Dopefish is part of the Quake universe as well?
I don't understand why people are so obsessed with these theories nowadays... but whatever, to each their own.

Edited by Noiser

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Posted (edited)

Doom 3 was an excellent game; but it had a different focus when compared to Doom! Don't get me wrong

 

+ve :  Doom 3 is very much Doom inspired but it couldn’t carry what the entire original Doom was.  It simply nailed the atmosphere …and was cutting edge technology for its time just like the original

 

-ve:    It felt samey... ie tech labs then some more tech labs with dark areas then some tech labs ...With the exception of the short hell levels

 

The original was very atmospheric and puzzle like,and felt much more varied, it had a fast gun and run gameplay component and better level design that was not matched in DOOM 3 … The original just covered much more ground.

 

Today you can play the (In Hell) Mod for Doom 3 it is very much gun and run plus some copy pasted levels from Doom 2… still the originals play better.

 

Thing is Doom 3 focused on things that lost value with time.

 

I don’t need to see cut scenes …it is nice once and only once...

I don’t want to hear the Logs on my PDA to find the locker numbers … it is nice but once and only once…

 

I already played it and enjoyed it … I can't find the same enjoyment when I play it again cause it loses novelty unlike the original which is really timeless!

 

It seems that I have so much free time... LOL

Edited by Ziad EL Zein

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On 6/26/2019 at 9:07 AM, beedubaya said:

It's aged much better than Half Life 2 (it's main competition) in my opinion.

 

I humbly disagree. While HL2 hasn't aged exceptionally well, it is better than doom 3 in almost every way like better storyline, characters, environment and combat. Heck, I even think that the graphics are better in HL2 too because while Doom 3 had better technology and dynamic shadows, HL2 had much better art direction. Characters in Doom 3 look like they are made of plastic and environments look too shiny.

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Posted (edited)

I always have a lot of problem with this game, There is good intentions of what they're trying to do, but to me Doom is all about Atmospheres and Action, the Atmosphere is good, the Action is not, 90% of the game is you in a dark area constantly using flashlights while you get attacked by monsters both front and behind for the hundredth times,it gets quickly boring, the game improves when you go to Hell, but quickly goes back to the Status Quote again, the moment you're back to the Techbase section, yes you get the Soul Cube, or whatever it's name is, but the gameplay is still the same.

 

To me Final Doom is the real Doom 3 to me,even if they're Doom 2 Light with the same graphics, I still enjoy them and replay them from time to time, and I'm glad that Doom 2016 went back to the basics that made Doom great, with keeping the good Doom 3 Stuff in there so it pleases everyone.

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On 6/29/2019 at 8:22 AM, ReaperAA said:

 

I humbly disagree. While HL2 hasn't aged exceptionally well, it is better than doom 3 in almost every way like better storyline, characters, environment and combat. Heck, I even think that the graphics are better in HL2 too because while Doom 3 had better technology and dynamic shadows, HL2 had much better art direction. Characters in Doom 3 look like they are made of plastic and environments look too shiny.

 

YOUR opinion. I say the opposite. I LOVE Half-Life 1 simply because it was an "isolated research base" setting, where you ultimately ended up alone after the experiment went tits up and it was up to you to fight off the alien invasion. You were just an ordinary person, and you were put in an extraordinary position. The environments were corridors and ducts, and it was all close and claustrophobic. And the highly amusing part is, all of the scientists and security guards are CLONES of each other - not what the gamemakers intended, but it sure adds to the game world and is extremely appropriate, given the setting. Doom 3 is very much like Half-Life, which is why I prefer it.

 

Half-Life 2, on the other hand, I was disappointed with. Your efforts in the first game have come to NOTHING because the Combine invaded anyway, you're now treated as The Messiah, there are discrete personalities that I don't like, and they all end up fawning to you and kissing your boots (ugh!), the physics puzzles are remedial, the so-called horror is not there, the long driving sequences get dull, and once again it ends up on a cliffhanger. Come to think of it, the whole SERIES ends on cliffhangers, the last one which will never be resolved. As for the game engine, it might be better suited all-round to more diverse environments, but it doesn't seem like a big enough step to me. Heck, I didn't even know the game even had normal mapping until I started to look for it, it's so subtle and limited.

 

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After having played the original Resurrection of Evil, I have to say that the gunplay is by far the biggest issue of Doom 3.

 

Yeah I know, not breaking news, but having just finished that recently I thought I'd bring that up, yet again. The biggest issues I noticed in RoE were on the surface sections and the toxic waste tunnels where the game tries to make you play fast, but unfortunately this is where the issue actually lies. D3 and fast do not fit in the same sentence at all, some weapons are strange (the shotgun as well as the SSG are useless unless you're basically shooting your target at almost point blank) so shooting from a distance is only viable for just a few weapons, the stamina is absolutely useless so running is essentially underpowered in addition to not making a lot of difference (running is slower than it needs to be, basically), jumping is not high enough, and taking cover in order to avoid being shot doesn't seem to help much either. The player rarely feels in control in D3.

 

It tries to be difficult but it ends up this way for all the wrong reasons sadly. RoE in particular is also very derivative with very obvious influences from films like Aliens (run into a Vulgar crawling on the walls or ceiling to see what I mean, that immediately feels off), and the Grappler is a straight rip off of the cut Physics Gun from HL2. If you'd change a few things in places and replace the name, you get a product that has no connection to the Doom franchise. Nonetheless, I still like the game, but it is fundamentally flawed beyond any doubt.

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Perhaps their intention was not to make the game difficult, but to make the player feel hopeless with the not so effective weapons.

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