Switcheroom 2 (Now on IDGAMES!!!!!)

[TheOrganGrinder]

Heh, I appear to still have an early alpha kicking around that's dated July 26th 2015, so this certainly has been in the works for a while!  Thanks @Jaws In Space and all of the project's contributing mappers, I've been looking forward to this.

[Degree23]

Congrats on getting to this stage! I'm really keen to see this being completed as I really like the concept. It's been so long since I played the last beta that I thought I'd play through again. I only remember a few details about some maps, and I haven't played any of the reworked or new ones, so it'll be fun to play through again. I'll play on UV continuously.

Map 1 - A solid opener, with nice music. Seemed to be a small texture error when I was on this lowered platform as I could see a dead Shotgunner through the floor. I do wonder if giving the PG, even as a secret, as well as the RL in the first map is a bit too much early firepower? I often thought one of the things Doom 2 could have done better was delay the SSG beyond Map 2, as it significantly reduces the difficulty of the next few maps. (Though maybe this makes it more "authentic"!)

Map 2 - Seemed good to me. Maybe a couple too many Chaingunners around. There's quite a few mid tier enemies as well, though I think this is a bit easier than the previous second map, which I seem to remember being disproportionately difficult. I think given the nature of the project, the levels not scaling exactly with difficulty is probably to be expected.

Map 3 - Again quite a lot of Chaingunners around, otherwise I like the recreation. Moving a map this far away from its original slot can be tricky to pull off but I think this manages it.

Map 4 - No real comments.

Map 5 - I think this is the one so far that reminds me least of the map it's inspired by, but that's not necessarily a bad thing as variety in how much influence they draw from the original maps is probably a good thing. The red key section in particular, but that's probably because I never collected all the keys in the original, I always just clipped through the second set of bars and never went over any of the pillars.

 

Will continue with this soon. It's been a lot of fun so far!

[Lingyan203]

After finishing each level the level names still show the same as Doom 2's.

[Degree23]

Map 6 - Was this Map 2 in the last beta? I seem to remember objecting to the 2 Revenants at the end then being disproportionate, not so much of a problem here in the sixth map. In terms of monster distribution, this seems significantly easier than the second map. Having got this far, I wonder if the second map should have a few mid-tier enemies replaced with weaker ones, as it does seem to stand out a bit in comparison to the next few maps.

Map 7 - Not much to say here.

Map 8 - Small texture error here on the gate between the middle and right paths.

Map 9 - Plays well I think. This is a good spot to give the BFG as a non-secret, especially with the fight immediately afterwards.

 

---------------------

 

Map 10 - I'm not really feeling the Map 18 vibe in the main area this one at all to be honest. It didn't feel very "Courtyardy" to me until I got to the Plasma Gun with the 2 Revenants. In the Red Key area, I think the Radiation Suit needs to be moved to a more obvious location. I missed it the first time round because I went to the left, where enemies are, and ended up being killed.

Map 11 - If you take the lift up where the secret Partial Invisibility comes down, you get stuck. Being sniped by those 2 Revenants miles away just before the door to the final room was incredibly annoying.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Degree23

[wrkq]

On 3/20/2019 at 10:10 PM, Jaws In Space said:

Okay I'll mark you down for that. There's a lot of work to be done, but I feel confident that all maps can be finished by August.

 

Looking at this the right way, this is still correct, Jaws!

Why, over a week before the deadline!

Congrats on hitting the beta! :)

[Magnusblitz]

19 hours ago, Lingyan203 said:

After finishing each level the level names still show the same as Doom 2's.

 

Yeah, the graphics for those haven't been included yet, I'll be doing it this weekend.

 

10 hours ago, Degree23 said:

Map 6 - Was this Map 2 in the last beta? I seem to remember objecting to the 2 Revenants at the end then being disproportionate, not so much of a problem here in the sixth map. In terms of monster distribution, this seems significantly easier than the second map. Having got this far, I wonder if the second map should have a few mid-tier enemies replaced with weaker ones, as it does seem to stand out a bit in comparison to the next few maps.

 

 

Yeah, a few people had raised that objection about the revenants, which I disagreed with (I'll note there are two in MAP01 now as well, heh) so instead the map was moved a bit later on.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Magnusblitz

[traversd]

12 hours ago, Degree23 said:

Map 11 - If you take the lift up where the secret Partial Invisibility comes down, you get stuck. Being sniped by those 2 Revenants miles away just before the door to the final room was incredibly annoying.

 

Whoops. The ceiling in the PI secret needs to be lower so the lift will jam and lower again.

 

RE: Revenants in the Caco tower. I guess they could be teleported into the main pathway around the building instead or the caco tower platform can be lowered 64 units to make shooting the Revs slightly easier?

[Lingyan203]

3 hours ago, Magnusblitz said:

 

Yeah, the graphics for those haven't been included yet, I'll be doing it this weekend.

 

 

Yeah, a few people had raised that objection about the revenants, which I disagreed with (I'll note there are two in MAP01 now as well, heh) so instead the map was moved a bit later on.

 

Thanks. Also, will there be a new interpic as well as a bossback pic for this wad?

[Jaws In Space]

22 minutes ago, Lingyan203 said:

 

Thanks. Also, will there be a new interpic as well as a bossback pic for this wad?

Probably not. I was only planning on having a new Ttilepic & Credits graphic.

[Lingyan203]

3 hours ago, Jaws In Space said:

Probably not. I was only planning on having a new Ttilepic & Credits graphic.

Oh, just like the original Switcheroom?

[TheOrganGrinder]

So I've been playing through this kind of slowly and have no significant comments on the first four maps.  MAP05, though... does the red key actually do anything?  I know that in the level on which this is based there are both red and blue barriers before the exit teleporter; the only barriers here can be opened with the blue key, though, so I've not been able to figure out quite what purpose the red key serves unless it's simply a bit of misdirection to trigger one last trap.

[Degree23]

Possibly a tribute to the fact that you didn't need all 3 keys to complete the original map as you can just walk through the blue bars? That would be my guess, though I don't know for sure.

 

17 hours ago, traversd said:

RE: Revenants in the Caco tower. I guess they could be teleported into the main pathway around the building instead or the caco tower platform can be lowered 64 units to make shooting the Revs slightly easier?

 

I just particularly hate homing rockets coming in from miles away, but that's just me. I did kill them, I just lost nearly all my health an armour as I didn't see them there originally and the RNG gave them maximum damage rockets. It doesn't necessarily need changed, it was just my frustration!

 

19 hours ago, Magnusblitz said:

Yeah, a few people had raised that objection about the revenants, which I disagreed with (I'll note there are two in MAP01 now as well, heh) so instead the map was moved a bit later on.

 

As I've played through this, the more I think that there's maybe just a bit too much in the first couple of maps, which makes me think of possibly removing the PG + AV secret in the first map, and swapping out some enemies in the second. The difficulty progression doesn't have to be linear of course, and will probably vary through the WAD, but on reflection the first couple of maps have stood out a little bit.

 

Map12 - I think this worked well. More challenging than the original and some good adaptations of the layout.

Map13 - This is a great map in its own right, but I'm not sure how well it works in the context of this WAD. You're moving a map 12 slots earlier, but the number of monsters has increased by 65%, with some hitscan sniping you from some awkward angles, and there's a whole ton of mid tier enemies, with an added boss fight that isn't present in the original. To me this is significantly more challenging than the original, and I don't think works at all even if you move it to Map 20. The map feels larger than the original, which in and of itself I don't think is a problem, but then to avoid it feeling empty, it has to be filled with stuff, and you end up with a map that has a lot more going on than in the original map, which I do think is a problem when you are taking one of the final maps and putting it in the middle of the WAD.

Map 14 - I remember this one from last time. I forget what I said then, but I feel a little bit the same as the previous map in that there's more monsters than in the original despite it being significantly earlier in the WAD. This one didn't feel too bad though, and maybe could just move a couple of maps later depending on what comes up next.

Map 15 - Hmm. The use of textures feel less... "good" than in any other map so far. It almost feels a little like those 90s WADs where it was cool to have narrow hallways and objects that would hinder your movement around the level for no reason. Things like these looking like stairs that you can climb, but there being an invisible wall, this Shotgunner not waking up or being able to be shot, getting stuck on protruding objects all over the place, to name a few things. The original Map 31 is characterised by neatly defined hallways, whereas this has stuff all over the place, with 1 or 2 enemies hidden away in dozens of small rooms sniping you. The Cyberdemon fight is horrible, with hitscan everywhere, Pain Elementals firing Lost Souls at you and no meaningful health or armour. The Red Key is completely meaningless as the door is right there and you could just have a switch to open it. The exit door texture is completely out of place with the rest of the map, even as a tribute to Wolfenstein textures. I save-scummed the hell out of this map and have no desire to find the secret exit, so I'll just Pistol start those later. If it were up to me I'd just replace this entire map as there is so much that doesn't seem to fit with either the theme, the original map, or the WAD in general.

 

---------------------

Map 16 - This map just left me with several questions. Do we want two and a half times as many monsters than the original, despite being 10 maps earlier? Do we need that many Demons at the start? Do we need so many hitscanners sniping you from cages which are miles away and gaps in walls which are actually shielding the lower half of their body making them even harder to kill than they already are due to the distance? Is there enough ammo for the Cyberdemon on top of everything else in the map?

Map 17 - Other than a small texture error here, this looked pretty good to me. I quite liked the way height was used through the map.

Map 18 - Some HOM on the wall of this step. The end of this map feels like it could be a more appropriate place to have a Cyberdemon fight than Map 16. I really liked the interpretation of this map.

 

So much of this project is looking good so far. Just a few too many monsters in some maps that are earlier than the originals in my opinion. The monster count doesn't need to always increase, a few maps just seem way off.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Degree23

[GarrettChan]

Map11: If you go into Sector 251 and let the lift raise up, you'll be stuck there. (I think Degree23 mentioned this already, just more specific and clear for fixing.)

 

Right now I'm on Map12. Overall it's pretty good.

[Faceman2000]

Map01: The Plasma Gun has already been brought up a lot, but I wanna throw out that since we get Barons on Map03 it’s not super out of place in my opinion when playing continuous.

Map02: The texturing choices on this level are. . . odd. Not very consistent theming and sometimes the transitions are very jarring. As a result, it looks more like a TNT map than a Doom II level. I know we aren’t going for DtwiD exactness, but it feels out of place. Also, I can get behind the “top-many-chaingunner” sentiment.

Map03: Definitely my favorite so far. Very solid translation of the original into a format that really feels like it could’ve been part of the original Doom II levels.

 

I haven’t noticed any functional issues in the levels.

[Degree23]

Map 19 - I think this plays quite well, not much else to say.

Map 20 - A really nice adaptation of the original map.

Map 21 - Another really nice adaptation. Even though there's only 77 enemies, it's significantly more challenging than the original and is a great start to the hell section.

Map 22 - I think it's really tricky to take this layout and turn it into a normal map because of how simple it is, and I think this is a great attempt. I do wonder whether this would even work better as Map 21, as it's a pretty good "welcome to hell, here's a whole ton of shit to deal with" map.

Map 23 - Awesome.

Map 24 - I'm not too sure what the opening area is about. It didn't immediately strike me as resembling any part of the original map, and made me think more of the original Map 29 with the descending lift and the pathway around the edge. The telefragging Cyberdemons idea is cool, but because they are so close to each other, there's a non-trivial chance you will get hit by the second one while you are stuck telefragging the first. There isn't an abundance of health so there's a decent chance you die from that, which did happen to me. I've seen a lot of good uses of telefragging Cyberdemons in many maps in the past. Often this has been to take them out after they have been pestering you for a while (maybe one is in the centre of a map as you have been trying to work your way around the edge) as a reward of sorts for being able to survive them. Here, they're mostly harmless initially, and there's no major challenge in getting to the teleporters. Telefragging enemies is also not really a feature of the original map, so I wonder if the Cyberdemons can be deployed better elsewhere, like the large Yellow Key section. Given how late this map is in the WAD, I wonder if there's also potential to make this final room larger and more elaborate, especially as there's only 68 enemies in it.

Map 25 - Oh boy, I remember this one, for the difficulty if nothing else. I wonder if there's enough initial ammunition (or health/armour) in the starting areas for those who would Pistol start this. Either that or remove a few of the Spectres by the Chaingun, as they soak up so much ammunition and you don't have a Berserk at that point. I went through an enormous chunk of RL/BFG ammo in this map, some of it before I came across the actual weapons in the map itself. I started with 100/29 and with 86 Rockets plus 600 Cells and it was still far from easy. Potentially it could move a map or two later depending on what's next. Definitely challenging, and I really like what was done with this map.

[GarrettChan]

Oh boy, here we are at Map16. I played quite a few Jaws' maps in TNT: Revilution, but none of those is this bad, or maybe my feeling is way off for this map.

 

It seems this map requires you to have secrets in order to beat it. Plasma Rifle is in a secret (luckily it's rather easy to find if you know the original Map26), but pretty much you need the Plasma Rifle to kill the Cyberdemon, given the fact there are 2 Cell Packs there. (I punched quite a lot of things, so it's not the thing that I refuse to punch stuff.) However, I guess you probably need to assume a blind playthrough player can't find any secret in the first place.

 

Then, in the courtyard fight with a lot of Demons, I understood that you need to punch out at least something, but some of the hitscanners on the high windows can deal quite a bit of damage and you don't really have a way to deal with it (unless you found the secret), which makes this fight too hectic without Armor, and there are only 50 health in this place (+25 if you retreat to the entrance).

 

After you get up the lift, there are a handful of enemies. Probably the first reaction of most players will just jump off. Then the Mancubi can clog up the walkway (especially those 3 from the pit), and they can block the lift (Sector 17) going back up and force the player to deal with a lot of things down below... I would say blocking some of the monsters from this walkway would be a better experience. If you go the wrong way, the Cyberdemon can even move into the walkway (maybe you want the player to telefrag him? I don't know, but it seems hard to pull off).

 

I did search for the secrets when I finished the map, and this map will be way easier when you have the secrets, you can deal with the hitscanners in paragraph 3, and you can get an Armor from the secret platform, and use the secret to avoid using the lift in paragraph 4.

 

I'm not saying I'm a good player or anything... this map killed me like 7 times, and these are the first 7 deaths in the first 16 maps.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

For Map17, it also has a similar problem with a small lift (Sector 7). It's very similar to the one on Map16. There are 2 Revenants and 1 Hell Knight on the top, so I personally jumped off the building immediately because it's sort of difficult to fight them without foreknowledge. Then the lift blocking enemies happen again just like Map16.

[Degree23]

Map 26 - Yep, it's "The Crusher" but more challenging. I loved the crushing of the several Cyberdemons.

Map 27 - I think this happened when I played through the last version, but I forgot that we hadn't had this map yet, and holy shit is it difficult. The start will be incredibly challenging from a Pistol start, though you can run around for a while and cause a bunch of infighting. The only part that seems a little unfair is after grabbing the Yellow Key, having so many Arch Viles appear and running around. Could maybe do with taking one of them away. Otherwise a very solid, and very challenging, map.

Map 28 - I'm not sure why there are 2 Radiation Suits right at the exit, they could maybe be placed elsewhere in the map. You certainly need a few with how much damaging floor there is in this map. Overall it's quite a bit easier than the previous map.

Map 29 - Definitely living up to its name and much better than the previous version. The pillars here seemed to be frozen in place when I went back in a second time, and they blocked the only teleporter out of that area. Having made it to the exit, I'm not sure why I had to wait for ages with nothing to do except snipe a couple of enemies while waiting for ages for a door to lower. I also thought that would be a good place for a final fight if the area was a bit bigger.

Map 30 - Please put a MegaSphere at the start of the level. It may be helpful to put monster block lines on the 4 Cyberdemon pillars to stop them falling off as that was quite annoying. To repeat a comment from 5 years ago, cut down the number of fucking Arch Viles. It feels like someone's misread the brief and swapped Map 30 from Doom II with Map 11 from Plutonia. Unless you know all of the AV ambushes are coming, you are extremely likely to die to them. The most unfair of the instances was putting four AVs behind a bunch of Revenants, but even in the first fight of three of them behind a couple of Hell Knights gives a high chance of being killed. Being at the start of the map it's not that much hassle to restart, but it's the point. The number of AVs can easily be halved in this map. It does also feel somewhat anti-climactic compared to Map 25/27/29.

Map 31/32 - Both looked good to me. I've always considered secret levels "anything goes", but I do think the two map layouts work well for secret levels here.

 

There's probably a lot of minor tweaks that can be made, and some minor bugfixes, but the TL;DR version of the most notable stuff for me is:

 

1) Map 15 needing a serious rework, or even restarting from scratch.

2) The difficulty of Maps 13 and 16 in light of the fact they are in many ways harder than the original maps, despite now being several maps earlier.

3) Map 30's AVs, and the general feeling of anticlimax. Map 29 feels much more like a "final map", especially if some sort of boss fight is put in at the end. That would possibly require some texture reworks as the current Map 30 uses IoS stuff. I think it's partly the fact that you get a Spider Mastermind and 4 Cyberdemons in your face immediately, and then the rest of the map is essentially nothing but tedious AV traps.

4) Swap Maps 27 and 28.

5) Maps 1 and 2 being toned down slightly, with the possible removal of the PG + AV secret in the first map, and swapping out some mid tier enemies in the second.

 

Fantastic work by everyone to get this off the ground again. Playing through for a second time was mostly incredibly fun, even the maps that were more or less the same as before. I really hope a bunch of other people give some good feedback on this.

 

I also look forward to the Final Doom versions of Switcheroom in several years' time!

[Faceman2000]

4 hours ago, Degree23 said:

I also look forward to the Final Doom versions of Switcheroom in several years' time!

SwitcherOnia episodes:

1) green, brown, and gray levels with gray sky

2) green, brown, and gray levels with bright red sky

3) green, brown, and gray levels with dark red sky

[Megalyth]

2 hours ago, Faceman2000 said:

SwitcherOnia episodes:

1) green, brown, and gray levels with gray sky

2) green, brown, and gray levels with bright red sky

3) green, brown, and gray levels with dark red sky

 

Some form of "Evilutonia" or "PluTNT" could be interesting, but probably not 64 maps of it. Maybe take the best maps of each episode and swap the themes for a 32-map megaWAD.

[Lingyan203]

3 hours ago, Megalyth said:

 

Some form of "Evilutonia" or "PluTNT" could be interesting, but probably not 64 maps of it. Maybe take the best maps of each episode and swap the themes for a 32-map megaWAD.

 

5 hours ago, Faceman2000 said:

SwitcherOnia episodes:

1) green, brown, and gray levels with gray sky

2) green, brown, and gray levels with bright red sky

3) green, brown, and gray levels with dark red sky

 

I think both of these projects would be nice. SwitcherOnia and SwitcherTNT both sound interesting as well as Evilutonia and PluTNT.

[Walter confetti]

Going to make some fixes through MAP24 if Jaws doesn't make any changes at that map... Anyway, for now I changed the place to the cyberdemon from the final room to the yellow key cave, right at the nukage pit and enlarged the final room after the yellow key door...

[GarrettChan]

There's a potential softlock on Map18.

 

When you cross linedef 976, it will close the door at Sector 167. Then if you use the secret (Sector 271) to get to the other side of Sector 167, you have no way to open that door again.

[Walter confetti]

As promised, a fixed version of my "Tomb of the apostate" map:

 

http://www.mediafire.com/file/o5n1pihaxy9fd9n/focus-in-hell-style-2.wad/file

 

Map slot is 23, not 24 like in the final compilation. Sorry about that.

 

- Moved the cyberdemon from the final room to the yellow key cave, it teleports in when you take the yellow skull key

- The second cyberdemon now is multyplayer only, and appears at the brown building windows to the blood lake

- Make appearing via teleport a bunch of monsters in the blood lake room

- Enlarged and made more difficult the final room after the yellow key door (i hope this time will be good). Also changed the puzzle switch and make it more "dynamic".

- Added more ammo and health in the map

 

Feedback is always appreciated, tell me what do ou think about this new edit. Bye.

[GarrettChan]

@Walter confetti

I can never realize this is your map when I was playing beta_0.1 yesterday. I don't know it was a project from you long time ago or what because just from a few of your maps' impression, they feel way better than the one in beta_0.1 TBH. I played the fixed version and it's way better due to the reduced emptiness, and the change of the last fight is smoother, rather than telefragging the Cybers.

 

Here are some thoughts in it, but it's solely based on my personal experience, so take whatever you think it's proper:

 

1. I think the SSG can be offered a little bit earlier since there are quite a few medium weight monsters;

 

2. The fight at Sector 77 is pretty slow. I think setting up 2 monster cages would be a bit more threatening, and the monsters will come out quicker;

 

3. The Rocket Launcher placement is a little bit weird;

 

4. The room with the Yellow Skull Key still feels too empty even with the additional monsters and Cyber. Maybe it can be reduced just by a little bit;

 

5. I personally would separate those 2 teleporters in Sector 7 into 2 different similar structures for 2 reasons: (1) it resembles the original Map04 more closely; (2) it seems I have a lot of trouble to remember which one did I go through, so it's more clear when they are separated; (I admit this is more or less it's my own problem, so maybe this is not a good suggestion.)

 

6. Cut 20 (or more) rockets. I knew I found the Plasma Rifle secret, but I exited the map with 71 rockets. I think it's too many.

Edited August 3, 2020 by GarrettChan

[Xulgonoth]

I just reached map07 and found a slight issue. The yellow door can only be opened once from the outside and you're then supposed to press a switch in the archvile closet to reopen it permanently. But if you happen to teleport out of this room before you press this switch, there's no way back again other than noclipping, which can solflock the map, if you don't grab the blue key.

[GarrettChan]

On 7/27/2020 at 10:15 AM, Degree23 said:

It may be helpful to put monster block lines on the 4 Cyberdemon pillars to stop them falling off as that was quite annoying. levels here.

I think you used the wrong -complevel. In -complevel 2 (or vanilla compatibility), you shouldn't be able to knock something off.

 

For Map30, the door of Sector 31 can't be opened from the other side. Judging there are a few teleporters which take you to the other side of the door, I don't know whether it's intended. Maybe a little bit more ammo would help in this map. It's definitely quite harsh for blind playthrough.

 

For Map28, since I play saveless as much as possible, so I died here a few times. Therefore I basically pistol started this map. I don't know what's up with those 2 Rad Suit at the end, but it's nice to have 1 or 2 more in the starting area. Without the secret one, probably you need to know the map ahead and make one short trip without it. Otherwise, it won't be enough.

Edited July 30, 2020 by GarrettChan

[Degree23]

On 7/29/2020 at 4:49 PM, Walter confetti said:

As promised, a fixed version of my "Tomb of the apostate" map:

 

I have to say I think the end room is much improved!

 

I still think the opening is more like Map 29 than Map 4. Now that I've played it again I can see that the rising and lowering pillars near the start are meant to resemble the rising and lowering barriers that hide Shotgunners behind them. For me the map is just still a bit too empty considering how far removed from the original slot it is, but maybe others will feel differently. Overall though I think it's an improvement on the first version, so thanks for taking the time to edit it!

Edited August 2, 2020 by Degree23

[Jaws In Space]

Hey @AD_79, @Archi, @Big Ol Billy, @cannonball, @dpstatic, @Noiser, & @tourniquet It case any of you were not aware Switcheroom 2 entered into beta not to long ago. There's been a bit of feedback from a few people in that time. The feedback starts on page 6, hopefully we can get a few more reviews through August.

[Big Ol Billy]

Thanks for the reminder :) I actually don't see any actionable feedback on my map, at least not on this page (assuming you mean page 6 of this thread--am I missing a separate testing thread?). But I'm definitely looking forward to seeing some demos/playthroughs and getting feedback.

[tourniquet]

Cheers for all your efforts Jaws, over the years you've certainly earned yourself the reputation of being someone who gets things done, much appreciated.