Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
[McD] James

No-Deal Brexit looking increasingly more likely

Recommended Posts

I don't have the energy anymore to argue about Brexit, I never really did anyway I simply made my choice and voted. However looking at the situation now (with May asking for another extension) my thoughts are.. No deal or revoke Article 50, our leaders need to pick one and then call a general election and be done with it (and good bloody luck to them in a GE).

 

12 minutes ago, cannonball said:

Yeah that leaflet was essentially a freebie to the leave side. 

 

I'm going to have to disagree with that statement, it was a "remain" leaflet after all, but whatever...

 

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 3:04 PM, Ajora said:

 

What I'm overwhelmingly hearing from Brexit supporters right now is "We don't care if there's a deal or not, we were promised Brexit, and we want out immediately. We don't care what the libtards are saying about the economy, because maintaining our national identity and keeping Muslims out of Britain is more important in the long run." I also sometimes post on the Shmups message board, and I copied over part of my post here to the Brexit thread going on there. Attempts to rationalize why this idea is profoundly stupid from an economic standpoint are met by the usual uncreative ad hominem attacks and the viewpoint that Britain's population becoming increasingly less white is the biggest threat of all. 

 

I was going to leave this, but that is a very extreme view shared by a lot UKIP/Britain first tossers and Alt-right keyboard warriors who probably were not old enough to vote in the first place. It is not an accurate portrayal of the average leave voter especially when considering a good chunk of the leave vote came from our left wing party. 

Share this post


Link to post
28 minutes ago, Liberation said:

I'm going to have to disagree with that statement, it was a "remain" leaflet after all, but whatever...

 

That's what I mean, it was ammunition for the leave side. The whole remain campaign from the likes of Cameron et al was an unprecedented disaster given voters had such a poor opinion of those in charge at the time.

Anyway what's done is done to be honest, it is just a shame that something which really came about from an internal squabble in our current governing party has essentially escalated into this mess.

Luckily only Doom is eternal :) 

Share this post


Link to post

I'm so utterly sick of Britain's incessant waffling and vain promises. It's not just about them, it's about the rest of the Europe as well, and we're kept waiting while the Brits can't figure out what the hell they want. So at this point I just want Britain out with no deal or strings attached so they finally stop holding Europe back with their endless vetos on joint projects like the European army. If they want to rejoin, they can do so without the agricultural subsidy rebate and the permanent exception for keeping the pound. Strip it all off. Build a data-proof wall around the City of London until the investment banksters have to sell off their last Mercedes. Don't give May an inch on the Good Friday Agreement. Let them eat cake with full WTO tariffs. Recognize Dwayne Johnson as the rightful ruler after he takes over Gibraltar.

Share this post


Link to post
56 minutes ago, dew said:

I'm so utterly sick of Britain's incessant waffling and vain promises. It's not just about them, it's about the rest of the Europe as well, and we're kept waiting while the Brits can't figure out what the hell they want.

One of the main motivations for the Leave vote was to tell the rest of Europe to go fuck itself*, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that Britain isn't being very considerate to the rest of Europe during the process of leaving (or not leaving).

 

* In most EU countries, a referendum with simply that question would probably get a lot of support. I was living in Denmark at the time of the first Maastricht Treaty vote, and the "No" vote clearly took on a life of its own, despite virtually every significant political party urging a "Yes" as the only logical option.

 

On the overall question of leaving the EU (I am a UK citizen living in the US), the vote to leave was a decision by the UK to shoot itself in the foot. The actual process of leaving risks blowing the whole leg off (and showering body parts on the bystanders). How has this come about? Dishonesty and lack of any coherent plan from the Leave campaign (and complacency from the Remain campaign, not to mention a lack of foresight that offering the decision to the masses could backfire). Lack of political backbone by those who are against leaving (or at least leaving disastrously), stiffly hiding behind "the will of the people must be respected". It's as if the people were asked which direction to go. They were lied to, and opted to go west. The polticians see a cliff to their west, and insist on driving off it because it is the "will of the people".

 

Share this post


Link to post

It's been an increasingly appalling shit-show ever since Cameron first committed to an in-out referendum, which was a knuckle headed play to prevent the Tory's losing votes to UKIP, and placate the gammon fringe of the party. What a twat. From then til now, the extent to which the process has been hostage to internal Tory party politics is beyond infuriating.

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, scalliano said:

On topic: I voted Remain, and I've regretted it ever since. I've learned a lot about how the Euro Parliament operates in the last two years and as a result I really don't want to be a part of it anymore. And no, immigration has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with things such as the EU Copyright Directive and the expansionist rhetoric coming from the likes of Juncker and Verhofstadt who seem to want the EU to become some sort of superpower to rival China (actually, the EUCD is a big step in that direction, given the inevitable hit to free expression). Their treatment of Ireland's vote on the Lisbon treaty is a good indication of how they work, in that they keep pushing for vote after vote until they get what THEY want, regardless of what the plebs originally voted for.

 

These are indeed uncertain times, but if Brexit is to succeed, then a no-deal situation is the only way it can IMO. The "deal" that has been on the table for the past year or so has been repeatedly rejected by MP's on both sides of the argument and for good reason - it effectively leaves the UK tied to Brussels, but completely toothless and without a say in EU policy. In other words, it's actually WORSE than being a full EU member. I say this as someone in favour of Irish independence (seriously, if you want to know what living in a "vassel state" feels like, try living in Norn Iron for a couple of years), and as someone who sees May's eagerness to get into bed with the DUP as the main obstacle to sorting out our own current issues. We haven't had an Assembly for several years now, and even when we did, it was little more than a dropbox for Westminster.

 

Things will be shaky for a few years, certainly, but change always comes with setbacks. I see little merit in going against the result of the referendum, as it would most likely cause even more shit, perhaps even to the extent of what's happening in France right now. The last thing we need is civil unrest.

 

just move lol

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, cannonball said:

 

At least the EU laws were at least Had some good intentions (even if the implementation looks to be a disaster for all of us)

The biggest con is to get people to look at one group and give them a label which if anything describes the other side better. You think the EU is corrupt, they have nothing on the Tory government and in particular those on the hard right.

 

This "done with good intentions" shouldn't ever be an argument in favor of anything. After all, communism was supposedly done with good intentions too. Then, tens of millions of people died. Authoritarians censor because they think they're smarter than the general population so they should get to dictate what is and isn't good for them. There is nothing good about that.

 

As for the Tories, I hate them as well, the difference is, you can vote for someone else to be in power in the UK. You can't vote on the EU parliament. The Tories seem to be in bed with the EU anyways, since they're the ones delaying Brexit, and most of them are remainers, so I don't see them as the "other side" at all. UKIP are the ones pushing for Brexit, and from what I've seen of them they seem like reasonable people. And I know UKIP has a reputation of being "racist" or "far-right" or whatever, but that's just the media lying about people they can't control, just like they do with Pewdiepie, Peterson or anyone who disavows from the new identity-politics religion.

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, killer2 said:

You can't vote on the EU parliament.

Hmm... This is good to know, because the lying MSM and the even lyinger EU have been spreading fake news about EU parliament elections in exactly 20 days. Now that we know it's a lie, I wonder what excuses they'll come up with to delay it week after week...

 

Anyway, you were thinking of the European Commission, which is a legislative body where every nation's government picks one member. The Commission only proposes EU laws to the parliament however. It is also somewhat ironic that the Commission is commonly demonized by anti-EU zealots as undemocratic, because along with the European Council it is designed as a bastion of national control against "Europe's dictat."

 

10 hours ago, killer2 said:

UKIP are the ones pushing for Brexit, and from what I've seen of them they seem like reasonable people. And I know UKIP has a reputation of being "racist" or "far-right" or whatever, but that's just the media lying about people they can't control, just like they do with Pewdiepie, Peterson or anyone who disavows from the new identity-politics religion. 

Ah, the mask slips. Vote UKIP, subscribe to pewds, eat steaks only, sjews reee. No wonder you wrote what you wrote.

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, killer2 said:

And I know UKIP has a reputation of being "racist" or "far-right" or whatever, but that's just the media lying about people they can't control, just like they do with Pewdiepie, Peterson or anyone who disavows from the new identity-politics religion.

This isn't a very good argument since the Mainstream media is quite supportive of "far-right" as well as "far-left" people. 

 

Let's look at what the EU did. When the Brits first pushed through the referendum EU politicians just ridiculed the outcome, didn't take it seriously, so much for EU's understanding of democracy. 

 

Though I see that Britain is doing mistakes as well... bringing up arguments like "Turkey would join the EU" or "muslims will invade the country" are weak, polirizing and hatespreading as well. 

 

As an outsider like myself it's really hard to tell what's going on but it looks like Britain is stuck for now and the path leads downwards. 

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, killer2 said:

 

This "done with good intentions" shouldn't ever be an argument in favor of anything. After all, communism was supposedly done with good intentions too. Then, tens of millions of people died. Authoritarians censor because they think they're smarter than the general population so they should get to dictate what is and isn't good for them. There is nothing good about that.

 

As for the Tories, I hate them as well, the difference is, you can vote for someone else to be in power in the UK. You can't vote on the EU parliament. The Tories seem to be in bed with the EU anyways, since they're the ones delaying Brexit, and most of them are remainers, so I don't see them as the "other side" at all. UKIP are the ones pushing for Brexit, and from what I've seen of them they seem like reasonable people. And I know UKIP has a reputation of being "racist" or "far-right" or whatever, but that's just the media lying about people they can't control, just like they do with Pewdiepie, Peterson or anyone who disavows from the new identity-politics religion.

I will avoid getting into conflict over this as I feel our opinions are pretty much polar opposite.

that said the conservatives have always been split over Europe and for a big part is the reason for all of this occurring. The ERG which is a Eurosceptic branch was established back in 1993 and whilst the members names are kept secret, it is rumoured that a significant minority (close to 100 perhaps) of the current Tory mps are members of this.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, dew said:

Hmm... This is good to know, because the lying MSM and the even lyinger EU have been spreading fake news about EU parliament elections in exactly 20 days. Now that we know it's a lie, I wonder what excuses they'll come up with to delay it week after week...

 

Anyway, you were thinking of the European Commission, which is a legislative body where every nation's government picks one member. The Commission only proposes EU laws to the parliament however. It is also somewhat ironic that the Commission is commonly demonized by anti-EU zealots as undemocratic, because along with the European Council it is designed as a bastion of national control against "Europe's dictat."

 

Ah, the mask slips. Vote UKIP, subscribe to pewds, eat steaks only, sjews reee. No wonder you wrote what you wrote.

 

Okay I'll admit I didn't actually know about these elections, and since I don't feel like reading all that, I'll grant you that. That's a fair point.

 

I don't get why you had to strawman the last part of my comment though. I never told anyone to subscribe or vote anything, I was just expressing my personal choice. I don't get what you mean by "mask slips", as if saying these things is some sort of fringe position and not what most people (i.e.:centrists) believe as well. The saddest part of your coment is "eat steaks only", it shows you've never even tried to engage with Peterson's content for any longer than 10 minutes. He explicitly says the diet is just for him and his daughter because they suffer from a very rare autoimmune disease which that diet helps alleviate. He's all about making people take responsibility, change for the better and fully reaching their potential, and then helping others as well. I'm not sure how the media managed to brand that man "alt-right", nor why people like you believe it without second thought. If you go to his channel and watch any one of his videos you'll see he's not anything the media makes him out to be.

Pewds is a comedy channel anyways, and I don't know as much about UKIP as I probably should, but you're absolutely dead wrong about reducing Peterson to that phrase. And for the record, strawmanning people and ridiculing them is a very bad way of trying to change their mind.

 

1 hour ago, rodster said:

This isn't a very good argument since the Mainstream media is quite supportive of "far-right" as well as "far-left" people. 

 

I'm not really buying this. There's FOX News in America vs the what...5+ (probably 10+) mainstream left channels. There's actually no mainstream right channel in the UK at all, Sky is in bed with the left and so is BBC. Social media also heavily leans left. There are a few independent centrist channels. The only popular far-right channels I can think of are FOX and Infowars before it was banned. And that's fine, because the far-right is stupid and I like that people realize that. They should also realize the far-left is just as stupid. The only good way of viewing politics is from a balanced position in the center, engaging in discussions and debates, not shit-flinging, name-calling, labeling and strawmanning. All those things are very easy to do, but they only make the problems worse.

 

Anyways, Brexit. 12 of April is my birthday, so they better not fuck this up or imma be upset D: 

Share this post


Link to post

UKIP have become un-voteable (not that I would of anyway) due to including Tommy Robinson in the party as an advisor.

 

A 1 trick pony party with an idiot who goes around giving Muslims stick is no good and not what we need in the slightest. That is all you need to know on them.

 

Back on topic: It will be interesting to see what May and Corbyn come up with together, if anything. But at least something is going on.   

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, killer2 said:

I'm not really buying this. There's FOX News in America vs the what...5+ (probably 10+) mainstream left channels. There's actually no mainstream right channel in the UK at all, Sky is in bed with the left and so is BBC. Social media also heavily leans left. There are a few independent centrist channels. The only popular far-right channels I can think of are FOX and Infowars before it was banned. And that's fine, because the far-right is stupid and I like that people realize that. They should also realize the far-left is just as stupid. The only good way of viewing politics is from a balanced position in the center, engaging in discussions and debates, not shit-flinging, name-calling, labeling and strawmanning. All those things are very easy to do, but they only make the problems worse.

 

Interesting factoid for you, the person in charge of handling the brexit coverage during the referendum was a man called Robbie Gibb, who was a prominent promoter of Brexit. The BBC unfortunately has become increasingly the mouthpiece of the government over the last ten years thanks to the conservatives who took a dislike to how certain elements were being reported. 

BBC political programmes tend to have a strong right wing or pro-Brexit bias, for example Question time, in the last five years there have been 35 MEP appearances, 33 were UKIP, 2 two were conservative, all of whom were leave supporters. You then add to that the most popular newspapers are also right leaning like the telegraph or the likes of the Daily Mail or Daily Express. 

The BBC is a real shame to be honest, reporters used to drive fear into politicians but these days if you are representing the government position you literally be eating a cat on live tv and you would still get an easy ride... opposition side is a different story.

Edited by cannonball

Share this post


Link to post

I figured no-deal Brexit was the most likely outcome. Ideally a fair deal would've been hammered out, but unfortunately, this was prevented by Remainer politicians in the UK gov't. instead of negotiating in good faith, Mz. May offered deals which were one-sided in the EU's favor. in this case, the "deal" would involve the UK essentially remaining in the status quo, bound to the EU, but without even a vote, AND there'd be the 'divorce bill' in which the UK would hand over billions to the EU, aka highway robbery. essentially, the UK would be reduced to a tributary/vassal state of the EU, which is the worst option available. and yes, this would undercut democracy; the British people voted to Leave, and the task of a representative republican gov't is to carry out that decision. instead, they negotiate in bad-faith, they keep stalling, they propagandize, and use every under-handed tactic they can think of. one of these is the suggestion of putting forward a second referendum on the same decision, before carrying out the first referendum -- that seems very similar to the legal concept of 'double jeopardy' to me. also, the frequently made argument that Brexit will crash the UK economy is absurd, since there's plenty of alternatives to the EU for trade -- notably the US, and President Trump has stated that he looks forward to making a post-Brexit deal.

 

most of the problems of Brexit are caused by Remainers, loyal to the EU and globalist elites, undermining the process. there is one major drawback, and that's the creation of a hard border across Ireland. admittedly, that will cause difficulties and frictions, which probably could've been avoided if there were a fair deal in the first place. but if the choice is between the UK being a tributary vassal-state, or being a sovereign nation, then of course, no-deal Brexit is by far the best decision.

Edited by Xcalibur

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Xcalibur said:

most of the problems of Brexit are caused by Remainers, loyal to the EU and globalist elites, undermining the process.

Nice fanfic. It's exactly because people believe this self-delusional bullshit why Britain can't get ANY sort of deal. This patently absurd idea that Britain is too soft on Europe and that the people who lost in the referendum need to shut up and march in lockstep against Brussels now, because somehow Europe would shit themselves and give Britain anything they pointed at. Blame whomever you want, but you won't change the undeniable fact that the people representing your dream position are laughable nincompoops who negotiated themselves into a corner and ensured that the rest of the world looks at Britain with a mix of disgust and pity.

Share this post


Link to post
35 minutes ago, dew said:

Nice fanfic. It's exactly because people believe this self-delusional bullshit why Britain can't get ANY sort of deal. This patently absurd idea that Britain is too soft on Europe and that the people who lost in the referendum need to shut up and march in lockstep against Brussels now, because somehow Europe would shit themselves and give Britain anything they pointed at. Blame whomever you want, but you won't change the undeniable fact that the people representing your dream position are laughable nincompoops who negotiated themselves into a corner and ensured that the rest of the world looks at Britain with a mix of disgust and pity.

it seems we agree on one thing at least, that negotiations have not been conducted properly.

 

if Nigel Farage were the Prime Minister, the UK would be in better shape IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
20 hours ago, killer2 said:

 

I'm not really buying this. There's FOX News in America vs the what...5+ (probably 10+) mainstream left channels. There's actually no mainstream right channel in the UK at all, Sky is in bed with the left and so is BBC. Social media also heavily leans left. There are a few independent centrist channels. The only popular far-right channels I can think of are FOX and Infowars before it was banned. And that's fine, because the far-right is stupid and I like that people realize that. They should also realize the far-left is just as stupid. The only good way of viewing politics is from a balanced position in the center, engaging in discussions and debates, not shit-flinging, name-calling, labeling and strawmanning. All those things are very easy to do, but they only make the problems worse.

I guess it all depends on your definitions but most of the mainstream media seems center right or far right by my perception. You’ve got anti tax-funded healthcare and education talking points coming out of CNN and MSNBC almost non-stop. They try at every turn to get milquetoast “Democrats” elected who wanna keep bombing the brown folks in the desert lands, don’t have a single progressive policy (or any clear policies on any subject, for that matter) and are just generally status quo. There’s token gestures from them, they’ll get on board with a left-wing ideal or two when it’s finally, overwhelmingly supported (for instance gay marriage just a few years ago) but it’s not genuine, it’s just a play to fool even more viewers into trusting the crap that they spew - for the most part, they essentially just tell you to fear change. That just doesn’t strike me as a very left wing ideal at all. Most of it seems to be designed to keep the money flowing just as it is now - too often I hear them supporting the gutting/blocking of social safety nets to protect people on the bottom economic rung for me to consider them anything but centre right.

 

The mainstream media has done a terrifyingly good job of convincing us that a poor parent trying to support their family is a leech to be ridiculed and that the rich dude who won’t be able to afford a third mansion is being unfairly disadvantaged and demotivated by the prospect of a higher tax rate. It’s absolutely fucking bonkers.

 

Social media is a different story, there is a more pronounced actual left wing bent, to generalise to the extreme. There’s still plenty of right wing thought and echo chambers out there and easily accessible, as they should be. There’s a huge caveat to the “social media leans left” claim though, a scary number of traditionally far-right concepts such as censorship, discrimination based on race or gender, etc have been somehow ‘redressed’ as left-wing ideals. I have no idea how this happened and clearly these concepts are still embraced by a number of self-identified right wingers as well, but when you take into consideration that a lot of things currently labeled as far left are not actually left wing concepts at all when you’re looking at a political compass, you see a bit of a different social media landscape. It’s a bit imposing when you’re a liberal who actually wants to see liberation for the masses. So many people are pushing back against it, fighting for rigidity, separation, discriminaton, the continual press of the boot on the back of the poor, and you just start to feel outnumbered beyond belief.

 

Sorry for the rant.

Edited by Doomkid

Share this post


Link to post
40 minutes ago, Xcalibur said:

it seems we agree on one thing at least, that negotiations have not been conducted properly.

 

if Nigel Farage were the Prime Minister, the UK would be in better shape IMO.

Well Farage would need to become an mp, which he has tried and failed to do on many occasions.

addressing a post further up, a trade deal with the US would not get public approval. We hated TTIP which was thankfully mothballed. How can we go down this route when our position is weaker and we are now dealing with Trump instead of Obama? It sounds like a desperate sell out.

As for Ireland, leavers had a long time to think up a solution to that border and simply decided that pretending it didn’t exist was a better option. Putting a hard border down might not be that simple, if the border is directly protected by the Good Friday agreement then the answer is you won’t be able to, the precedent of that peace treaty is that the public approves any changes (both N.Ireland and the Republic). That pretty much stuffs us most WTO routes in the process which is why other solutions are being tried to prevent this from happening.

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, Xcalibur said:

there's plenty of alternatives to the EU for trade -- notably the US, and President Trump has stated that he looks forward to making a post-Brexit deal.

Since you said in another thread that the copyright nonsense going on in Europe was the reason Britain would leave the EU, I'm sure you are looking forward to Americans using trade deals as a trojan horse on that front, like they attempted with the Pacific region. If as said above you are in a weakened state at the negotiation table, you can bet that kind of BS will have an easy time getting swallowed by politicians. Not that you would be able to tell until it's pretty much done, since the most contentious bits tend to be talked behind closed doors.

Edited by Kira : epic typo

Share this post


Link to post
On mardi 2 avril 2019 at 12:58 PM, scalliano said:

On topic: I voted Remain, and I've regretted it ever since. I've learned a lot about how the Euro Parliament operates in the last two years and as a result I really don't want to be a part of it anymore. And no, immigration has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with things such as the EU Copyright Directive and the expansionist rhetoric coming from the likes of Juncker and Verhofstadt who seem to want the EU to become some sort of superpower to rival China (actually, the EUCD is a big step in that direction, given the inevitable hit to free expression). Their treatment of Ireland's vote on the Lisbon treaty is a good indication of how they work, in that they keep pushing for vote after vote until they get what THEY want, regardless of what the plebs originally voted for.

 

On mardi 2 avril 2019 at 2:45 PM, killer2 said:

I fully agree with Scalliano and I'm a foreigner living in the UK. The censorious and tyrannical EU parliament can fuck off, it's quickly becoming an unsustainable mess.

Need I point out that the European Parliament does not have any power of legal initiative? It can only vote on bills, not start them. Things like the copyright directive do not originate from it, they originate from the Commission or the Council of Ministers*.

 

(* The EU really needs to invest in a fucking thesaurus, because there's the European Council (presidents and chancellors/prime ministers), the Council of the European Union (other ministers), and those are in addition to the preexisting and separate Council of Europe.)

 

That the Parliament voted wrong (after voting right a first time) doesn't change that the problem does not come from it. The Parliament is the only actually democratic instance in the EU, everything else is indirect democracy at best, appointed nominations at worst. For example, it's the Parliament that is taking steps to get rid of Martin Selmayr.

 

As for the EU becoming a superpower... That's impossible. It would require it to be actually united, which is never going to happen. As long as the USA, Russia, China, and so on can pick and choose and play divide to rule, the EU will continue to be a politically ineffective thing that can only serve to impose on its citizens the wills of foreign powers. Just look at the tug-of-war for the 5G between the USA and China.

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, cannonball said:

addressing a post further up, a trade deal with the US would not get public approval. We hated TTIP which was thankfully mothballed. How can we go down this route when our position is weaker and we are now dealing with Trump instead of Obama? It sounds like a desperate sell out.

the situation has changed, though. and if anything, dealing with Trump is an improvement for them, since there's plenty of common ground between Trumpism and Brexit.

 

8 hours ago, cannonball said:

As for Ireland, leavers had a long time to think up a solution to that border and simply decided that pretending it didn’t exist was a better option.

the main concern is that an Irish backstop could be used to maintain de facto EU control. ideally that knot would've been untied, but the situation is not ideal.

 

6 hours ago, Kira said:

Since you said in another thread that the copyright nonsense going on in Europe was the reason Britain would leave the EU

to clarify, it's not the copyright overreach specifically. rather, it's issues like that, which are characteristic of the EU, that led to Brexit. even that's a limited rationale, as Brexit is a phenomenon with a complex set of causes, much like Trump's election.

 

6 hours ago, Kira said:

I'm sure you are looking forward to Americans using trade deals as a trojan horse on that front, like they attempted with the Pacific region.

I was strongly opposed to the TPP at the time, because 1. it gave multinational corps way too much power, and 2. it decisively undercut fair use doctrine. I must reiterate that the situation has changed quite a bit in the past few years. Obama was a neoliberal, while Trump is a populist. I think a US/UK trade deal would be more than adequate as a solution post-Brexit.

Share this post


Link to post
28 minutes ago, Xcalibur said:

to clarify, it's not the copyright overreach specifically. rather, it's issues like that, which are characteristic of the EU, that led to Brexit. even that's a limited rationale, as Brexit is a phenomenon with a complex set of causes, much like Trump's election.

I figured as much, but that's a fair point overall.

 

28 minutes ago, Xcalibur said:

I was strongly opposed to the TPP at the time, because 1. it gave multinational corps way too much power, and 2. it decisively undercut fair use doctrine. I must reiterate that the situation has changed quite a bit in the past few years. Obama was a neoliberal, while Trump is a populist. I think a US/UK trade deal would be more than adequate as a solution post-Brexit.

Do you really think a multilateral, respectful deal can be achieved with Trump? How and why? Genuinely asking here, and I reckon there are scenarios where it can happen. While I don't share most of your opinions here (or some at least, I'm not behind your every post :-D), I think we both agree that neoliberalism isn't exactly the most exciting prospect.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Xcalibur said:

the situation has changed, though. and if anything, dealing with Trump is an improvement for them, since there's plenty of common ground between Trumpism and Brexit.

Oh yes, let me spell out what that common ground is: "we go first, fuck everyone else". I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out what happens when two countries want to be first and fuck over the other one.

 

1 hour ago, Xcalibur said:

the main concern is that an Irish backstop could be used to maintain de facto EU control. ideally that knot would've been untied, but the situation is not ideal.

What the hell, your "ideal" solution is to unilaterally abandon the Good Friday Agreement? Do you not realize what it stands for? Or do you not care, because you're just looking for a "win over Europe"?

 

1 hour ago, Xcalibur said:

I think a US/UK trade deal would be more than adequate as a solution post-Brexit.

Explain your rationale or admit it's just wishful thinking.

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, dew said:

laughable nincompoops

 

Thank you! I have been looking for a nicer sounding alternative to "retard" as of late.

Share this post


Link to post

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/Summary_of_U.S.-UK_Negotiating_Objectives.pdf

 

Official US objectives for a trade deal with the UK. I'll let you read.

 

But in summary, you'll "take back control" from Bruxelles so as to give it to Washington. And the good thing is, that contrarily to the situation with Bruxelles, none of the laws and regulations that you will have to accept will have been ever voted for by you.

 

I especially like the bit where Washington takes control over the Bank of England so as to make sure that the UK will not devaluate the pound.

Quote

Currency:

- Ensure that the UK avoids manipulating exchange rates in order to prevent effective balance of payments adjustment or to gain an unfair competitive advantage.

 

Since we've talked about the EU's idiocy wrt. the Internet, here's an excerpt that's about the USA's relentlessness in that domain.

Quote
  • Ensure non-discriminatory treatment of digital products transmitted electronically and guarantee that these products will not face government-sanctioned discrimination based on the nationality or territory in which the product is produced.
  • Establish state-of-the-art rules to ensure that the UK does not impose measures that restrict cross-border data flows and does not require the use or installation of local computing facilities.
  • Establish rules to prevent governments from mandating the disclosure of computer source code or algorithms.

"Your data belongs to us. You will not prevent us from getting your data. You will not get to know if how we're spying on you."

If you're innocent enough to wonder why it's a big deal where data is hosted and why a country may not want data to cross the border -- the NSA is legally allowed to access any and all data located on a server situated on US soil. This is going to boost American industrial espionage a lot.

 

It also has this typically American conception of reciprocity:

Quote

Retain flexibility for U.S. non-conforming measures, including U.S. non-conforming measures for maritime services.

"Yeah, we got to keep doing stuff that our trade deal will prohibit you from doing."

Quote

Exclude sub-federal coverage (state and local governments) from the commitments being negotiated. Keep in place domestic preferential purchasing programs such as:

  • Preference programs for small businesses, women and minority owned businesses (which includes Native Americans), service-disabled veterans, and distressed areas;
  • “Buy America” requirements on Federal assistance to state and local projects, transportation services, food assistance, and farm support; and
  • Key Department of Defense procurement.

"The UK will have to guarantee full, unimpeded access to US businesses, but the US will be allowed to keep gating UK businesses out for a variety of pretexts."

 

There's a lot more to say because there are 14 pages of such guidelines, but yeah, it's going to be very fun.

 

Share this post


Link to post

Are we already in the realm of Communism-like "Brexit wasn't a failure, REAL Brexit has never been tried!" takes?

Share this post


Link to post
13 hours ago, dew said:

What the hell, your "ideal" solution is to unilaterally abandon the Good Friday Agreement? Do you not realize what it stands for? Or do you not care, because you're just looking for a "win over Europe"?

no. I'm quite aware of the instability and violence of 20th century Irish history, and I have no desire to see it repeated. ideally, they would've negotiated an arrangement which would enable Brexit while maintaining the status quo in Ireland or something close to it. a subtle and difficult task for sure, but worth pursuing. as it is, the most likely outcome is UK crashing out of the EU, and then improvising.

 

13 hours ago, dew said:

Explain your rationale or admit it's just wishful thinking.

 

15 hours ago, Kira said:

Do you really think a multilateral, respectful deal can be achieved with Trump? How and why? Genuinely asking here, and I reckon there are scenarios where it can happen. While I don't share most of your opinions here (or some at least, I'm not behind your every post :-D), I think we both agree that neoliberalism isn't exactly the most exciting prospect.

neoliberalism was a good experiment, but it doesn't seem to be working out.

Trump is already maintaining trade ties with the UK, and has expressed willingness to substantially increase trade. he has every reason to, since as I said, Trumpism and Brexit have much in common, and could be allies of convenience against the EU and neoliberalism.

I'll have to review all the stuff Gez posted, which I assume is negotiable. even with compromises, it'll still be better than remaining in the EU. the UK will have borders again, it'll have greater autonomy, and the opportunity to roll back censorship/thought control and other destructive policies. the UK also doesn't have to rely exclusively on the US, it can hammer out deals with other countries as well, in fact I believe there's already groundwork for trade with Switzerland, Norway, and Israel, to name a few.

the idea that Brexit will leave the UK isolated in the dark ages is totally baseless, and is a scare tactic.

 

6 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Are we already in the realm of Communism-like "Brexit wasn't a failure, REAL Brexit has never been tried!" takes?

Brexit, real or otherwise, has not yet been implemented. the situation is not equivalent.

Share this post


Link to post

Woah, what's going on here? :) Let's get back to the core:

 

Britain's made a referendum.

 

They voted to leave EU.

 

It's a democratically legit vote.

 

EU obviously doesn't want Britain to leave. 

 

For some reason I didn't understand, the negotiations are still going on. 

 

For all the other countries... as you can see, never join EU. EU is like the abusive partner in a relationship which will even go as far as lock you in the basement so that you can't leave. Acting like they don't like you but deep down they love you, thus making way for a hurtful relationship, physically and emotionally. 

 

Though, it is easy to blame just EU. Being honest, Britain has its abusive sides too (looking at Britain's history), but so does Germany, France, Belgium, etc. 

Share this post


Link to post

@rodster That is not the core, the discussion is about Britain leaving without a deal, not why we voted how we did 2016.

 

Sadly this thread has devolved from people just stating their thoughts for the record, which for the most part people have been respectful of, but then people have jumped in with both feet to argue the toss over complete nonsense and have derailed the thread. Shocker.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×