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Salt Miner

Thoughts of how armor works

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They way armor works in classic fps games from the 90's is all different. For example,

 

:Doom:

The standard armor increases the player's armor percentage to 100. It cannot be collected if the player already has at least 100 percent armor.

The armor will absorb one-third of all damage received.

The mega armor increases the player's armor percentage to 200. The mega armor will absorb one-half of all damage received.

 

:Duke Nukem 3D:

Armor gives the player 100 armor points when picked up.

In addition, it makes it so that each enemy attack that hits the player is reduced from anywhere between 20% to 50%.

The amount that is reduced is instead transferred to the player's armor points.


:Quake:

Armor absorbs a certain amount of any damage. When an armor is picked up, the player gains a certain amount of Armor points depending on the type of Armor acquired.

In Quake, the absorption rate also depends on the type of Armor.

One cannot acquire a new suit of Armor if it is worse than what one is already wearing.

Green Armor - absorbs 30% of an attack.
Yellow Armor - absorbs 60% of an attack.
Red Armor - absorbs 80% of an attack.

 

:Quake 2:

Same thing, pretty much as Q1. The armor types on Q2 are pretty much equivalent to Q1 except for their varying degrees of protection against energy attacks.

Jacket Armor - absorbs 30% of an attack. It offers no protection against energy type weapons.

Combat Armor - absorbs 60% of an attack. It also absorbs 30% of the damage coming from energy weapons.

Body Armor - absorbs 80% of an attack. It also absorbs 60% of the damage coming from energy weapons.

 

:Quake 3:

All Armor types in Q3 absorb 66% of an attack.
 

So we can see that armor works in different ways, but does anyone think a particular way is better than others? Is there a preferred way for armor to work?

 

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Posted (edited)

You forgot even more esoteric examples.

 

Blood, for example, had three armor systems:

  • Body Armor (resisted firearms and bullets)
  • Fire Armor (resisted explosions and fire)
  • Spirit Armor (resisted spiritual and magical attacks)

All three equippable, measurable, and shown on the HUD at once.

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I'm looking at Hexen's armor system on Doom Wiki and Zdoom wiki. I get that the higher the AC, the more damage reduction. But how is the damage absorbed by the armor distributed? Does it reduce the durability of one armor piece (chosen at random) or is it equally distributed through all armor pieces?

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Regarding Blood, it should also be noted that the damage absorption rate is dependent on the current armor level. If you have near 200, the armor will absorb most of the damage you receive. Likewise, if you have a very low amount, most of the damage will go through to health. I like it because it is logical. Destroyed/damaged armor will definitely protect less efficiently than a brand new one.

 

I don't know the exact ratios, but it is obvious that this is the way it works when playing the game.

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Prefer Doom 1s system as long as the blue armor isn't spammed everywhere. Hate it when armor blocks so much damage that it makes you feel immortal.. like the eagle shield from heretic and anyone with maxed AC in hexen.

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Posted (edited)

Quake 1's armor tiers are pretty good for multiplayer but I like the simplicity of Doom's armor system more for singleplayer. Due to the way the HUD works with some sourceports, I assumed that crossing the 100% armor threshold with armor bonuses was increasing armor's rank, but apparently it does not? That would explain my failure rate when I attempt this strategy.

 

Also, Quake 3's armor depletes over time (when above 100%) which is very important for map control purposes. Apparently it's a controversial change for the Quakeworld veterans.

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5 hours ago, Chow Yun Thin said:

I'm looking at Hexen's armor system on Doom Wiki and Zdoom wiki. I get that the higher the AC, the more damage reduction. But how is the damage absorbed by the armor distributed? Does it reduce the durability of one armor piece (chosen at random) or is it equally distributed through all armor pieces?

I think it's spread out over all of them.

 

In Hexen, the armors give you different amounts depending on class, and each point equals 5% damage reduction. Each piece gives a different amount depending on class as well.

 

Fighter can get a total of 16 points (80% damage reduction)

Cleric can get a total of 14 points (70% damage reduction)

Mage can get a total of 12 points (60% damage reduction)

 

Then there's the dragonskin bracers, which give you 4 extra points on top of the original limit, so the 4 armors plus the bracers give you this:

 

Fighter: 20 points (100% damage reduction)

Cleric: 18 points (90% damage reduction)

Mage: 16 points (80% damage reduction)

 

Now, as you get hit, those points go down, so that nifty 100% damage reduction isn't going to last beyond that first hit. After that, the points go down and you'll start taking some damage. More hits will degrade the armor further and lower the points and overall damage reduction. There's also some innate damage reduction that will never go away:

 

Fighter: 3 points (15% damage reduction)

Cleric: 2 points (10% damage reduction)

Mage: 1 points (5% damage reduction)

Pig: 0 points

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56 minutes ago, Kira said:

Quake 1's armor tiers are pretty good for multiplayer but I like the simplicity of Doom's armor system more for singleplayer. Due to the way the HUD works with some sourceports, I assumed that crossing the 100% armor threshold with armor bonuses was increasing armor's rank, but apparently it does not? That would explain my failure rate when I attempt this strategy.

Correct. If you got Green Armor and go over 100, it's still Green Armor. Likewise, if your Blue Armor is low and you pick up Green Armor to replace it, your damage reduction immediately goes down from two-thirds to one half. That's why you should keep your Blue Armor, even if beaten up, as long as you possibly can.

47 minutes ago, Ichor said:

I think it's spread out over all of them.

 

In Hexen, the armors give you different amounts depending on class, and each point equals 5% damage reduction. Each piece gives a different amount depending on class as well.

 

Fighter can get a total of 16 points (80% damage reduction)

Cleric can get a total of 14 points (70% damage reduction)

Mage can get a total of 12 points (60% damage reduction)

 

Then there's the dragonskin bracers, which give you 4 extra points on top of the original limit, so the 4 armors plus the bracers give you this:

 

Fighter: 20 points (100% damage reduction)

Cleric: 18 points (90% damage reduction)

Mage: 16 points (80% damage reduction)

 

Now, as you get hit, those points go down, so that nifty 100% damage reduction isn't going to last beyond that first hit. After that, the points go down and you'll start taking some damage. More hits will degrade the armor further and lower the points and overall damage reduction. There's also some innate damage reduction that will never go away:

 

Fighter: 3 points (15% damage reduction)

Cleric: 2 points (10% damage reduction)

Mage: 1 points (5% damage reduction)

Pig: 0 points

This is exactly how Hexen's armor works, correct.

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20 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

This is exactly how Hexen's armor works, correct.

 

Fun fact: This is exactly how armor used to work in Minecraft back in the Alpha days.

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I thought both armors were the same and that one just gives you more armor points. This is news to me after like 25 years of playing.

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The armor bonus is slightly more odd. It gives you a point of armor of the type you already have, though it defaults to the green type.

 

If you have 0% armor and pick up 10 bonuses, you have 10% green armor.

If you have 100% green armor and you pick up 50 bonuses, you have 150 green armor.

If you have 5% blue armor and pick up 120 bonuses, you have 125 blue armor.

If you have 0% armor and pick up 200 bonuses, you have 200% green armor (not blue).

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dark Pulse said:

Correct. If you got Green Armor and go over 100, it's still Green Armor. Likewise, if your Blue Armor is low and you pick up Green Armor to replace it, your damage reduction immediately goes down from two-thirds to one half. That's why you should keep your Blue Armor, even if beaten up, as long as you possibly can.

Makes sense. The fact that your armor downgrades when you grab a Green, or that going below 100% after damage is still Blue Armor should have been big hints that the armor things themselves affect the boolean, not percentage threshold. But I was on the optimistic side, as always :D.

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armor in Dark Forces/Jedi Knight is pretty interesting, as it's handled with an energy shield system that you recharge by picking up shield charges, which makes sense, as most of the firearms in Star Wars uses some sort of energy based attack powered by various types of cells. it's similar to Blood's armor in terms of absorption rate, except much more efficient: IIRC at 75 or higher, it absorbs all attacks completely, but below that threshold, the shield doesn't fully work and damage leaks through.

 

i always liked the system, since a high shield charge makes you feel pretty safe, but you can't be too careless with it, as projectiles are numerous and can drain your shields quickly, and health is not as common as shield charges are. plus, it only works against energy based attacks, meaning stuff like explosives and melee attacks ignore your shields entirely, which makes the large melee-only monsters like Krayt dragons especially threatening when they appear and cleave right into you.

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Not a classic FPS but I love the way GTA IV did armour because it’s so straightforward. Using regular health items (food and drink) can only get you up to 100, but through finding or buying armour, you can go all the way up to 200. If you have 1 hp then pick up armour, you essentially have 101 hp. Its been a few years but I’m pretty certain that’s how it worked and I like how straightforward and easy to understand it is. I was Dooming for like 15 years before I found out that blue armour absorbs 50% but green only absorbs 33%!

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2 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Correct. If you got Green Armor and go over 100, it's still Green Armor. Likewise, if your Blue Armor is low and you pick up Green Armor to replace it, your damage reduction immediately goes down from two-thirds to one half. That's why you should keep your Blue Armor, even if beaten up, as long as you possibly can.

This is exactly how Hexen's armor works, correct.

 

This is assuming you can come back for the green at any time, but if you can't/think you'll forget/will be too lazy, then it's very situational. It will depend on how much blue you have left and how much health you have and how much health you will pick up and how many armor bonuses there are.

 

One example: at 100 health and 50 blue armor, it's a wash if there is no health left in the map. Skip the green armor and you'll die after 150% damage (your armor will be depleted when your health gets to 50). Pick up the green armor and you'll still die after 150% damage, though you'll still have 50% green armor when your health reaches zero. This means if you're at 100 health and 50 blue armor, and you expect to pick up more health at any point, you should get the green armor. But then again, maybe you shouldn't if there are lots of armor bonuses.

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17 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Not a classic FPS but I love the way GTA IV did armour because it’s so straightforward. Using regular health items (food and drink) can only get you up to 100, but through finding or buying armour, you can go all the way up to 200. If you have 1 hp then pick up armour, you essentially have 101 hp. Its been a few years but I’m pretty certain that’s how it worked and I like how straightforward and easy to understand it is. I was Dooming for like 15 years before I found out that blue armour absorbs 50% but green only absorbs 33%!

I think another good take on that kind of simplification if you still want to keep health separate is the armor taking 100% of the damage. Isn't that how Doom 2016 handles this by the way? Die Hard Trilogy (first part) comes to mind as well.

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I like the armor in Timesplitters 2 :)
It's basically a second healthbar-...
It acts like how the armor does in GTA IV as Doomguy states :o

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The shield belt in Unreal Tournament is also like this (100% damage absorption) 

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I know it is not a FPS, but in games based on D&D, armor doesn't absorb damage at all.  Instead, it increases your odds of avoiding getting hit.  The better your armor, the harder it is to hit you.  That could represent the armor absorbing the damage, the armor deflecting the attack, or you dodging the attack.

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Probably the first two, because if you have a -10 armor class or lower, you're not going to be doing much in the way of dodging

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Ichor said:

Probably the first two, because if you have a -10 armor class or lower, you're not going to be doing much in the way of dodging

It has been a long time since I played a 2E game.  I play a lot of Neverwinter Nights, which is 3E, where higher armor class (AC) is better.  A character with a lot of Dexterity could have good AC without wearing armor.

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4 hours ago, Viscra Maelstrom said:

armor in Dark Forces/Jedi Knight is pretty interesting, as it's handled with an energy shield system that you recharge by picking up shield charges, which makes sense, as most of the firearms in Star Wars uses some sort of energy based attack powered by various types of cells. it's similar to Blood's armor in terms of absorption rate, except much more efficient: IIRC at 75 or higher, it absorbs all attacks completely, but below that threshold, the shield doesn't fully work and damage leaks through.

 

i always liked the system, since a high shield charge makes you feel pretty safe, but you can't be too careless with it, as projectiles are numerous and can drain your shields quickly, and health is not as common as shield charges are. plus, it only works against energy based attacks, meaning stuff like explosives and melee attacks ignore your shields entirely, which makes the large melee-only monsters like Krayt dragons especially threatening when they appear and cleave right into you.

Also IIRC the shield doesn't protect against falling damage.

1 hour ago, Empyre said:

I know it is not a FPS, but in games based on D&D, armor doesn't absorb damage at all.  Instead, it increases your odds of avoiding getting hit.  The better your armor, the harder it is to hit you.  That could represent the armor absorbing the damage, the armor deflecting the attack, or you dodging the attack.

Yeah, in fact you get separate kinds of armor class bonuses, and you can determine if the armor protected you or not because of this. You have a "touch AC" (which is 10 + size bonus + dexterity bonus + dodge bonus) and then your full AC where you also add your armor bonus and shield bonus on top of your touch AC. If an attack doesn't beat your touch AC, it missed completely; if it beat your touch AC but doesn't beat your full AC it connected but bounced harmlessly, and if it beats your full AC then your armor was not enough.

 

Several magic attack only requires beating the touch AC, which is handy because wizards usually have a low attack score anyway.

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16 hours ago, Salt Miner said:

:Quake 2:

Same thing, pretty much as Q1. The armor types on Q2 are pretty much equivalent to Q1 except for their varying degrees of protection against energy attacks.

Jacket Armor - absorbs 30% of an attack. It offers no protection against energy type weapons.

Combat Armor - absorbs 60% of an attack. It also absorbs 30% of the damage coming from energy weapons.

Body Armor - absorbs 80% of an attack. It also absorbs 60% of the damage coming from energy weapons.

 

 

You missed that Q2 is unique in that whenever you pick up a lesser quality armor while still having something left of the previous higher quality armor. The armor type will still be that of the higher quality. So if you got  1 % of armor left from the body armor and pick up a jacket armor. All that armor you pick up is still protecting 80%. So if you never lose ALL of your armor. The armor level you have will never go down.

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5 hours ago, kristus said:

You missed that Q2 is unique in that whenever you pick up a lesser quality armor while still having something left of the previous higher quality armor. The armor type will still be that of the higher quality. So if you got  1 % of armor left from the body armor and pick up a jacket armor. All that armor you pick up is still protecting 80%. So if you never lose ALL of your armor. The armor level you have will never go down.


No wonder that game feels easy. Besides power armor.

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What is Doom's armor bonus supposed to be, physically? It looks like a tiny helmet, or something, that glows...but, if so, how does 2 helmets help anyone? Or 20? Or 200? It's almost like some type of energy boost. Is it electronic? Chemical? Medicinal? Magical? (like mana) Alien?

 

I know DoomGuy can carry a couple thousand pounds of weapons and ammo, while running 35 miles per hour. But surely he doesn't place 200 helmets on top of helmets on his head.

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Just now, kb1 said:

What is Doom's armor bonus supposed to be, physically? It looks like a tiny helmet, or something, that glows...but, if so, how does 2 helmets help anyone? Or 20? Or 200? It's almost like some type of energy boost. Is it electronic? Chemical? Medicinal? Magical? (like mana) Alien?

 

I know DoomGuy can carry a couple thousand pounds of weapons and ammo, while running 35 miles per hour. But surely he doesn't place 200 helmets on top of helmets on his head.

Quick, someone make a mod that lets you have hundreds of helmets on Doomguy's head when you have chasecam on.

 

Bonus points if a couple of them fall off every time he gets shot.

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8 hours ago, kb1 said:

What is Doom's armor bonus supposed to be, physically?

Who said it's physical?

 

The manual call it "spiritual armor".

 

Likewise for health bonuses and the various spheres.

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1 hour ago, Pegg said:

Sonic gameplay in doom? Lol

It's more likely than you think.

 

After all, ask the Sonic Robo Blast 2 team. :P

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Doomguy hovers the little armor bonuses above his abs and they become stronger as they absorb the energy.

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