the one thing to balance DOOM

[Beginner]

53 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

At a distance from sniping, it's not implausible. But I thought he was using the SSG because he said "combat shotgun," which I've seen used to refer to the SSG (since that's what's in the manual - even Doom Wiki does it). But he was referring to the normal Shotgun, which is a decent sniping weapon as long as you're not ridiculously far away.

Don't tell me you're actually stupid enough to shoot SSG way outside it's effective range to claim it's ineffective in doing the exact thing it's supposed to be ineffective at. Also I believe SSG would more likely be referred to as "double barreled shotgun" rather than "combat shotgun".

 

57 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

Things 19, 47, 84, and 91 are Shotgun Shells. 4 shotgun shells per pickup + 4 pickups = 16 shells, plus 4 from the Shotgun you get is 20 total.

  

Open it up in Doom Builder, see for yourself.

Then what is thing 21? I believe that's a shell box and it's flagged to spawn on all difficulties. Also, there's 0 (zero) shotgunners in E3M1 so I have no idea where would you get shotgun drop while avoiding shotgun pickup that gives 8 (eight) shells. If you're claiming some shit at least open up the game and check if you're correct or not.

 

1 hour ago, Dark Pulse said:

It's one thing if you warp there, but you're damn well not going to start E3M2 in that state without directly warping there. Your number of bullets mostly depends on if you run past the tunnel cacos, and your number of shotgun shots depends on if you shoot stuff with it or not. And of course, your Health/Armor depends on how well you avoided getting crisped/mawed.

You're going to start E3M2 like that if you die in that level and press your use key in vanilla. If you somehow enter that level near dead you're likely to start in already described way that you want to dismiss for some reason.

[Dark Pulse]

29 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

Yes. This is the thing. Math tells me rocket dueling a Cyber is quicker than SSG a Cyber, but actually there are a lot more to consider rather than just pure numbers. It's similar to learning Economics to me. You can learn some basics from the past events. However, when it comes to things in reality, it doesn't always go accordingly.

Yes, and that's where the RNG kicks in, along with some quirks.

 

Rockets would be way faster, but Cyberdemons don't take splash damage from rockets, so they only take the direct impact damage from the rocket, so somewhere between 20-160. This is why a Baron of Hell, with 1000 HP, can fall in 4-6 rockets (because along with the splash he's eating essentially 100-300 per), but a Cyberdemon needs 36-52. In practice, the mean is about 5 for the Baron, and 45 for the Cyberdemon.

 

Naturally, as you pointed out, there's other factors. To maxmize SSG damage you have to be fairly close for example, which is riskier than being well away and just slinging rockets at it. You actually could thus damage it more with the SSG - 19-21 shots would be needed, with a mean of 19.55 - but you would be needing good footwork to dodge the rockets, and again, it assumes every single pellet hit, which it obviously won't. Normally pure math would mean that would be faster, except for the fact that you can only shoot about 37 SSG shots a minute versus 105 rockets a minute.

 

So even though the SSG will do it in less shots, the rockets simply get the job done faster (and with less risk, at that), albeit at the cost of a slightly more exotic type of ammo compared to generally-plentiful shells. And obviously player skill also plays a role in how capable someone is at executing a strategy.

 

21 minutes ago, Beginner said:

Don't tell me you're actually stupid enough to shoot SSG way outside it's effective range to claim it's ineffective in doing the exact thing it's supposed to be ineffective at. Also I believe SSG would more likely be referred to as "double barreled shotgun" rather than "combat shotgun".

I'm not. Again, since he said COMBAT Shotgun, I was assuming that that's basically what he was doing - spraying with the SSG. He was using it to refer to the REGULAR shotgun, which nullified both my argument that it was more wasteful on ammo, as well as that it'd be a massive waste to snipe using it, since the regular shotgun is decently accurate for medium-range sniping just fine. Assuming he's not shooting from ridiculous ranges, it'd definitely be faster than sniping with the pistol would be (although the chaingun would probably come out about the same speed or even a bit faster with tapping).

 

21 minutes ago, Beginner said:

Then what is thing 21? I believe that's a shell box and it's flagged to spawn on all difficulties. Also, there's 0 (zero) shotgunners in E3M1 so I have no idea where would you get shotgun drop while avoiding shotgun pickup that gives 8 (eight) shells. If you're claiming some shit at least open up the game and check if you're correct or not.

Yes, I misremembered on the shotgun shell amount (because I'm so used to picking up four from Shotgunners) and corrected myself (but not before you quoted it, it seems), and I did forget about the box of shells. That's on me. I still pistol the Cacos and pinkies to death and save most of the shells for E3M2.

 

21 minutes ago, Beginner said:

You're going to start E3M2 like that if you die in that level and press your use key in vanilla. If you somehow enter that level near dead you're likely to start in already described way that you want to dismiss for some reason.

Admittedly, I never played much vanilla. I played mostly the console ports until I got a PC of my own. Though my argument is assuming stuff like "You went there from E3M1" and, yes, that you don't die and respawn using the use key, since who the hell does that instead of reloading from a save anymore.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Dark Pulse

[Bob9001]

45 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

I missed some from time to time. Probably it takes around 450 shots to kill. Compared to Berserking the Cyber, this is both boring and easy.

 

Berserking a Cyber is most boring stuff you can encounter in Doom.

 

I personally avoid it and so far haven't played a map where you HAVE to do that.

 

However, the berserk pack is good for other (low-mid tier enemies) as it saves time and ammo in UV-Max attempts.

[GarrettChan]

15 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

Rockets would be way faster, but Cyberdemons don't take splash damage from rockets, so they only take the direct impact damage from the rocket, so somewhere between 20-160. This is why a Baron of Hell, with 1000 HP, can fall in 4-6 rockets (because along with the splash he's eating essentially 100-300 per), but a Cyberdemon needs 36-52. In practice, the mean is about 5 for the Baron, and 45 for the Cyberdemon.

From this, I now understand you know jack about the game, so yeah, you win. You are obviously someone who thinks doing a test is a waste of time compared to saying things you didn't actually test out. Every point I raised here, I tested it out, rather than just saying it out of nowhere by pure numbers.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Bob9001 said:

Berserking a Cyber is most boring stuff you can encounter in Doom.

You have to have the skill first. Then you are qualified to talk about whether it's boring. Yeah, call me Elitism. I don't mind and I'll be happy about it.

[LadyVader1138]

Holy shit on a cracker, can this please stop? This has devolved into mean spirited bickering and pointless arguing! We all love the same game and we shouldn't let our mutual passion start what's rapidly turning into a dick measuring contest.

[Bob9001]

9 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

You have to have the skill first. Then you are qualified to talk about whether it's boring. Yeah, call me Elitism. I don't mind and I'll be happy about it.

I do have skill? Skill is defined if you want to make an effort to prove you're good at a specific task in this case, it's not elitism.

 

It's just personal preference tbh. Not gonna waste my time Beserking a Cyber if I have a BFG or Plasma Rifle.

[Nine Inch Heels]

So... I made a 1 sector map, meaning the cyb won't ever attack, and all you need to do is shoot it... It turns out the difference between RL and SSG is pretty marginal, as both demos kill sub 0:30. It's about a 1 sec difference between the weapons, so there you go...

With that said this argument of what would be, and I quote, "way faster" is dead and done in the water. Being close to a cyb? Not an issue, because circle strafing is a thing, literally all you'd need to worry about is aim and blockmap under normal circumstances.

 

Have fun with your napkin math, I'm outta here.

Map:
RF_SSG_cyb.zip

Demos:

cyb_SSG.zip

cyb_RL.zip

 

[Dark Pulse]

28 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

From this, I now understand you know jack about the game, so yeah, you win. You are obviously someone who thinks doing a test is a waste of time compared to saying things you didn't actually test out. Every point I raised here, I tested it out, rather than just saying it out of nowhere by pure numbers.

Testing is fine. I just don't personally give a shit about playing this way, because I don't find punching or shooting a Cyberdemon 300+ times to be any sort of fun, and I frankly don't give a flying fuck on a galloping goose about it past what I've said in this thread.

 

If someone else who is more interested in it wants to, they're free to do it and prove/disprove whatever they please. They even have my blessing.

 

Get it?

[Doomkid]

Do we seriously need pages and pages of really pompous sounding posts from everyone involved to determine that the pistol was made deliberately shitty to prompt players to find any other weapon ASAP? You guys do what you gotta do, I just find it kinda hilarious. I think the manual even says something like “The pistol is the suckiest gun, but it works in a pinch”. There ya go, pistol design philosophy spelled out by the id gods themselves, pack up and go home everyone 

[Dark Pulse]

26 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I think the manual even says something like “The pistol is the suckiest gun, but it works in a pinch”. There ya go, pistol design philosophy spelled out by the id gods themselves, pack up and go home everyone 

From a quick look, the PC doesn't mention any quip like that. The SNES Manual says it's "your standard military-issue weapon. It will stay with you, so don't forget about it if things get tough."

 

But yeah, what you said pretty much sums up how I feel about it.

[SaladBadger]

though it's not mentioned in the pistol's own description, it's implied in the description of the imp

It's time to find a weapon better than that pistol if you're going to face more than one of these S.O.B.s.

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 minute ago, SaladBadger said:

It's time to find a weapon better than that pistol if you're going to face more than one of these S.O.B.s

Meanwhile they put 2 cacos in E3M1, without providing a better weapon... Riddle me that!

[LadyVader1138]

14 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Meanwhile they put 2 cacos in E3M1, without providing a better weapon... Riddle me that!

That you can easily lure out and then run to the shotgun.

[Dark Pulse]

33 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Meanwhile they put 2 cacos in E3M1, without providing a better weapon... Riddle me that!

Sandy Petersen is a fuckhead.

 

That's the answer to that riddle. :P

[Kills Alone]

46 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Meanwhile they put 2 cacos in E3M1, without providing a better weapon... Riddle me that!

Pretty simple, they are there to encourage the player utilize enemy infighting.

[GuyMcBrofist]

5 hours ago, Mk7_Centipede said:

"The Six-Pak consisted of the XM214, the power module, and the ammunition module consisted of two 500-round, factory packed, and disposable cassettes mounted to a holding rack. Linked ammunition was fed through a flexible chute to the gun; when the first cassette was empty, ammunition would then feed from the second cassette, tripping a visible signal that a new cassette needed to be added to the rack.

 

The power module contained a 24-volt nickel-cadmium battery, a 0.8 horsepower (0.60 kW) motor, and solid state electronic controls. Unless the battery was plugged into a vehicle's power supply, the battery's charge would be depleted after 3,000 rounds."

 

Pistols do not use batteries. Chainguns do. Makes sense to me.

 

That's an interesting way to look at it. I wouldn't make it cost 2 cells for 2 bullets though, only 1 cell or even less. And since the CG is getting nerfed in a way, I would buff the pistol a bit to balance that out, I've always thought just making it shoot as fast as you can click it would make it feel right.

 

I don't think the game is broken as it is though.

[Kills Alone]

Agreed, one cell is plenty, two is overkill, so why not use the Plasma gun?

I totally got what OP meant about the plasma cells going towards the battery charge, not the actual projectile. I've done a lot of weapon creation and balancing in Halo so I get where OP is coming from and why this occurred to them. Its not a bad solution if the pistol got a small buff but it I think we can all agree it would get annoying having to collect two types of ammo just to use the chaingun.

What about replacing the cells with a recharge station that you find every so often (the type that also recharges power armor), its similar to a solution I hypothesized for the Halo 2 Scorpion Tank where the vehicle would need to return to base to get more cannon ammo after however many shots, this would (in theory) help discourage tank camping.

Something that has always bothered me in DOOM and kinda related; why do you start with 0 armor yet you run so fast.

[GuyMcBrofist]

The recharge station would have to have limited uses, otherwise it just gets abused, but then that makes it no different from cells laying on the ground. edit: Oh, unless you meant a charging station for only the chaingun. That might work. Maybe you could instead have batteries you can pick up for it so it still needs power but doesn't use cells.

 

What do you mean by starting with 0 armor yet running fast? Are you saying the armor is supposed to be some kind of power-armor that gives the wearer special abilities?

Edited May 6, 2019 by GuyMcBrofist

[Kills Alone]

In a way, I mean obvi armor and the suit's capabilities in general are different in the newer incarnation(s). I mean more in the sense of how/why are we wearing useless armor that would only weigh us down and not provide protection. This is why I often use the option in the UDV HUD to start with full armor. Usually it just enables me to skip the first suit of armor thats laying around so I don't feel its a cheat. I'm the type to keep playing with low health and 1 bullet so I'm not trying to make the game easier, just more logical.

Indeed, limited uses or a timer or the recharge station is always at the start of the map; something to avoid overuse. More in the direction of whats this powered armor for besides the obvious and what good is it when empty? I'm not trying to challenge Doomguy's speed but it would make more sense to me if he could run faster because his suit was charged or removed. Not saying theses are changes I would like to see, just spit-balling the logic behind these decisions.

Having said that, I think the games simplicity is one of its greatest accomplishments.

[an_mutt]

Take at least two pellets out of an SSG shot. Probably more.

[Roofi]

I think it would be cool that some monsters could throw their projectiles at random speed so that they become a lot more unpredictable and dangerous. I think about imps , HK/Barons and Cacodemons.

 

I don't really agree with the idea of the chaingun.

[Nine Inch Heels]

9 hours ago, Kills Alone said:

Pretty simple, they are there to encourage the player utilize enemy infighting.

When was the last time you managed to get 2 cacos to infight one another?

[Cruduxy Pegg]

32 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

When was the last time you managed to get 2 cacos to infight one another?

 

^{Laughs in barrels}

[Nine Inch Heels]

44 minutes ago, Pegg said:

 

^{Laughs in barrels}

You mean the abundant barrels at the start of E3M1? :P

[Cruduxy Pegg]

Nah, am also a filthy shotgun rusher who skips the cacos.

 

Since when is E3 the standard for hard anything, it is easily the easiest episode in doom 1.

[Dark Pulse]

3 hours ago, Pegg said:

Nah, am also a filthy shotgun rusher who skips the cacos.

 

Since when is E3 the standard for hard anything, it is easily the easiest episode in doom 1.

I dunno, as I said, as a kid I could never beat Pandemonium on the SNES.

 

But well, part of that might've been that I was playing the SNES. 10-15 FPS? No circlestrafing?

 

The soundtrack was damn good, though! 

[Mk7_Centipede]

i think e3 was the hardest the first time through. the combat strategy was thrown on its head and cacoi and lost souls are actually threatening. Beyond just killing what was in front of you, you had to be rather aware of your environment in E3, imo. It definitely felt like hell when i was young.

[GuyMcBrofist]

The beginning of E3 is one of the more dramatic sequences in the game for me. You flip that eye switch and get raised up to a fleshy field and red sky and get confronted by two Cacos at the entrance to a building made of giant red bricks. It sends the message quite clearly: You're in Hell now. I would get so freaked out as a kid by the stuff you see in that episode.

[Noiser]

1 hour ago, GuyMcBrofist said:

The beginning of E3 is one of the more dramatic sequences in the game for me. You flip that eye switch and get raised up to a fleshy field and red sky and get confronted by two Cacos at the entrance to a building made of giant red bricks. It sends the message quite clearly: You're in Hell now. I would get so freaked out as a kid by the stuff you see in that episode.

 

I agree. The "pistol vs cacodemon" in E3M1was a horrible gameplay choice, but for someone who was playing Doom for the first time it was a great way to convey emotion and buiild a narrative about hell (like the dead barons on E2M8, used to make you fear the Cyberdemon). I think it was a great way to start the episode. it's just the kind of thing that becomes meaningless after you get used to the game.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Noiser

[Kills Alone]

16 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

When was the last time you managed to get 2 cacos to infight one another?

Why would you ... oh, I see, no my initial route for E3M1 (on UV) is to open the door, then run around the starting area twice (counter-clockwise, then clockwise) getting the attention of all the enemies without firing, in the chaos this will lead the Imps to inadvertently attack the Cacos (or vice-versa), then I use that as a distraction to run by, deal with the two Imps in the way (with default pistol you only need to kill/move one of them), grab the berserk, then shotty before returning to mop up what remains.

Brutal DOOM v21 Beta ⛧ Maps of Chaos Overkill (E3M1) Hell Keep: https://youtu.be/B_9LQzuQ5kg?t=26

If you prefer vanilla here is BigMacDavis using infighting at that point: https://youtu.be/1nqZCZGRnNM?t=18