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I am about to start taking all the original Gothic Doom Deathmatch maps and expand them into actual levels that can be played, do you think the original creators of the wad will take aversion to that? Really I just like the theme and think it would be fun to do.

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Why not make your own "Gothic inspired" maps then? I am not sure DM maps lend themselves very much for singleplayer continuous play.

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===============================================================
* Copyright / Permissions *

Authors MAY NOT use these LEVELS, GRAPHICS, TEXTURES, SOUNDS,
and MIDIs as a base to build additional levels. Those that
dare to risk their lives...will be thrown into the Dungeons of
GothicDM2: Dungeons of Death

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/deathmatch/megawads/gothicdm

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Use the resource wad to make your own stuff like others did with great success. It's a cool theme and could get some more love.

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5 hours ago, ukiro said:

===============================================================
* Copyright / Permissions *

Authors MAY NOT use these LEVELS, GRAPHICS, TEXTURES, SOUNDS,
and MIDIs as a base to build additional levels. Those that
dare to risk their lives...will be thrown into the Dungeons of
GothicDM2: Dungeons of Death

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/deathmatch/megawads/gothicdm

 

safe to ignore, maybe there's a few original graphics, but most of it is recolors from quake and hexen, sounds from lucas arts and raven

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Vorpal said:

safe to ignore, maybe there's a few original graphics, but most of it is recolors from quake and hexen, sounds from lucas arts and raven

So... No one will sue me... Good, thing is over twenty years old anyway, I suppose it was silly to think that anyone would actually be upset.

 

I could just make my own from scratch but I want to use these base levels as a launch point for each level because I think they are cool but their is nothing really for me to do in them. Also It will help alot with actually FINISHING all the maps if a quarter of each one is already made. 

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4 minutes ago, InterdimensionalInterloper said:

So... No one will sue me... Good, thing is over twenty years old anyway, I suppose it was silly to think that anyone would actually be upset.

 

I could just make my own from scratch but I want to use these base levels as a launch point for each level because I think they are cool but their is nothing really for me to do in them. Also It will help alot with actually FINISHING all the maps if a quarter of each one is already made. 


Gothic textures are released long time ago, I shared them here. If authors said that that their levels can't be used as a base, better respect their decision and use other maps with permission to reuse, it wouldn't be so hard to mould them into something better with some work.

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24 minutes ago, InterdimensionalInterloper said:

So... No one will sue me... Good, thing is over twenty years old anyway, I suppose it was silly to think that anyone would actually be upset.

 

I could just make my own from scratch but I want to use these base levels as a launch point for each level because I think they are cool but their is nothing really for me to do in them. Also It will help alot with actually FINISHING all the maps if a quarter of each one is already made. 

 

You could populate the levels and play them yourself but not release them. If you did release them a) no one would play them and b) they'd hassle the shit out of you for ignoring the readme.

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Make your own maps. If you use them as base, someone will notice that and punish you for being that lazy.

Don't make that mistake. And, as Misty said, there's the texture pack for you to use it as long as you credit the original authors. 

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I always presumed these disclaimers were in the text files so people don't slightly modify their work and try to pass it off as their own. I wouldn't even include my name in the credits if it meant I could make these as I had originally intended. I guess I will just re-create them from scratch with the same themes in mind so their are no credit issues... Going to take a lot longer to finish though, I will post levels as I complete them here in the future.

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2 hours ago, InterdimensionalInterloper said:

I always presumed these disclaimers were in the text files so people don't slightly modify their work and try to pass it off as their own.

 

Yeah, back then it was quite popular to have bootleg compilations of various media, and of course we're familiar with it in the doom community (e.g. maximum doom, d! zone, etc), and the vendor would make some royalty free cash for zero work input. The disclaimers in doom text files don't really serve a legal purpose, but more of a communal purpose of "hey if you're reading this text file on a CD you paid money for, you got screwed and I got nothing from the sale as well", where if you read it you may or may not choose to boycott the publisher/vendor of that CD.

 

When it comes to community members performing work on a pre-existing map, even if it's a "DO NOT USE AS A BASE" disclaimer'd map, I think is healthy and advances the community (more/varied content, the one author advances their skill, the other author gets flattery). If you think otherwise then you can't admit to ever having fun on dwango5, or enjoying any midi transliteration from film/elsewhere, or all those R_SKY graphics that people make from modified google image photographs etc.

 

I want to say it's different if the product being "remixed" is commercial, but again dwango5 lol. I say go for it, whatever sparks your inspiration, just cite the authors/works you modify.

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Makes you wonder what the actual mappers for GothicDM are up to these days 20 years later..

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18 hours ago, Vorpal said:

safe to ignore, maybe there's a few original graphics

 

You're contradicting yourself in the same sentence.

 

4 hours ago, Vorpal said:

 

When it comes to community members performing work on a pre-existing map, even if it's a "DO NOT USE AS A BASE" disclaimer'd map, I think is healthy and advances the community (more/varied content, the one author advances their skill, the other author gets flattery). If you think otherwise then you can't admit to ever having fun on dwango5, or enjoying any midi transliteration from film/elsewhere, or all those R_SKY graphics that people make from modified google image photographs etc.

 

This is a disingenuous position. Having had fun in dwango5 has no correlation to the moral decision of its author to base it off of someone else's work.

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4 hours ago, Vorpal said:

When it comes to community members performing work on a pre-existing map, even if it's a "DO NOT USE AS A BASE" disclaimer'd map, I think is healthy and advances the community (more/varied content, the one author advances their skill, the other author gets flattery). If you think otherwise then you can't admit to ever having fun on dwango5, or enjoying any midi transliteration from film/elsewhere, or all those R_SKY graphics that people make from modified google image photographs etc.

 

I get where you're coming from but there's a big difference between importing or editing other media (textures from other games, converting songs to midi etc) and using another person's maps and editing them when they explicitly say "DON'T DO THIS". Of course it's not legally binding but being a dick isn't illegal. Dwango5 is a product of it's time. It's also different using IWAD content as a base and using PWAD content.

 

Like I said earlier, you can do whatever you want to maps you download but you shouldn't release them unless the author is fine with it. It's like starting out with mapping; moving things around, adding more monsters and rooms etc to E1M1. It's useful for learning and progressing your skill but don't release your edited IWAD stuff.

 

This isn't really a big deal because most people know that it's not very creatively satisfying to marginally edit other people's work and pawn it off as your own. There's that wad (fuck, I forget the name..) where it's doom2.wad but heavily expanded. I see that as being different because it's such a departure to the original maps that it could be called it's own product. It's a self-aware play on doom2.wad rather than rehashing it through minor editing.

 

tl;dr Don't edit and release other people's shit without permission. If you're doing that your shit probably sucks or you'd have more sense than that.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ukiro said:

 

You're contradicting yourself in the same sentence.

 

 

For clarity, I'm saying that a work composed of mostly copyrighted content (a sizable portion straight rips, unmodified) and then claims copyright / usage rights on specifically that content, is legally wrong and ethically wrong (preventing others from doing what you enjoyed/benefited from doing, and claiming ownership of the ripped off thing).

 

3 hours ago, ukiro said:

This is a disingenuous position. Having had fun in dwango5 has no correlation to the moral decision of its author to base it off of someone else's work.

 

I have to infer that your position is that derivative works are verboten without author's consent, but that it does advance society through the use and enjoyment and experiences had with unauthorized derivative works. My brain has trouble marrying those points, I wonder if you can elaborate, or just continue to call me disingenuous that's fine too

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4 hours ago, xvertigox said:

There's that wad (fuck, I forget the name..) where it's doom2.wad but heavily expanded.

You may be thinking of Memorial, which merges all doom 2 maps into one and some interconnected new areas were added...

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3 hours ago, Vorpal said:

I have to infer that your position is that derivative works are verboten without author's consent, but that it does advance society through the use and enjoyment and experiences had with unauthorized derivative works. My brain has trouble marrying those points, I wonder if you can elaborate, or just continue to call me disingenuous that's fine too 

 

No, I don't think you have to infer that at all. I am saying that in the context of this discussion—use of someone else's work as a basis for your own, despite their explicit request not to do this—has no correlation to anyone's potential enjoyment of said work, nor has that potential enjoyment any bearing on the moral question. What we discussed was the morality of this conduct in terms of authorship, and I disagree with you connecting that to a consumer's enjoyment of the outcome.

 

3 hours ago, Vorpal said:

For clarity, I'm saying that a work composed of mostly copyrighted content (a sizable portion straight rips, unmodified) and then claims copyright / usage rights on specifically that content, is legally wrong and ethically wrong (preventing others from doing what you enjoyed/benefited from doing, and claiming ownership of the ripped off thing).

 

As for this, I contributed original works to Gothic DM 2. Does the fact that others contributed non-original work—rips from other games, recolored IWAD assets—void my rights? That certainly seems to be the logical conclusion of your argument. And note: I am not arguing that claiming exclusive ownership of works that are not yours is a defensible position. We could dive into the weeds of authorship in a "sampling" context but I think that is a separate topic and I would ask that the goalposts are left in their current position. My original criticism still stands, that you contradicted yourself in a single sentence and that your reasoning implies that because some part of a body of work from multiple authors is non-original, the rights are void for all of it. This is the point I am criticizing.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ukiro said:

use of someone else's work...despite their explicit request not to do this...has no correlation to anyone's potential enjoyment of said work, 

 

The correlation is that enjoying (in mind, and/or in pocket) from someone else's work invalidates any usage rights you claim on a derivative of that work. I'm not really talking about rando consumers, but authors of original works and authors of derivative works ("remixers" if you will).

 

3 hours ago, ukiro said:

As for this, I contributed original works to Gothic DM 2. Does the fact that others contributed non-original work—rips from other games, recolored IWAD assets—void my rights?

 

You can and should exercise your rights on your works imo, but not others' works as it insults the creators of the original works and it insults those who would like to make further derivations. I'm pretty sure you didn't write the txt file, so I don't mean "you" specifically have harmed authors. In my fantasy land world, the gothic txt file would cite where it got its sources, and the individuals who contributed original gfx and levels would each have their own stated usage claims. But as it is currently, the claims are disrespectful and if someone disrespects the usage claim by remixing it, well... taste of one's own medicine.

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You're more than welcome to modify MAP17 and MAP32 of Gothic DM 2. I would recommend making MAP17 way less cramped than the original version, though!

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I think it's a real shame that more wads don't have more open reuse permissions, especially because as has already been suggested in this thread, a lot of folks likely only explicitly denied permission to reuse content in an attempt to combat someone else stealing the work and claiming it as solely their own. I would love to see more efforts like what @InterdimensionalInterloper is doing, whether it's turning multiplayer maps into singleplayer ones, or even remixing existing singleplayer sets. if someone skilled remixed Scythe 2, or turned all of UDMX into a singleplayer wad, I would play those in a heartbeat haha. I feel the same as Vorpal in terms of the value to the community that comes from being able to build off existing works, so it's unfortunate to me that most of the creators in the community are explicitly not ok with their works being used as a base.

 

anyway, I think this project is a really cool idea, and I hope you continue with it :D

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Finished the second map, added a cut scene pic and added a little text file for level details. I put WAY more time and effort into this one, I realize the first map is prety basic but I will go back and straighten it up later.. Here I have blueprints for the first four maps and only two of them made so its more worth while to focus on them at the moment. 

https://www.mediafire.com/file/e3b5v48ywywmkxb/GOTHICMW3%.WAD/file

Edited by InterdimensionalInterloper

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