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sualocin

Doom2 (1994) Core-gameplay extension!?

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Posted (edited)

So the vanilla version of Doom 2, with its thoughtful Monster&Weapon-design

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuOObGjCA7Q

 

managed to establish an captivating video-gameplay-shooter-Dance

that will probably remain for a very long time in its respective gameplay direction unmatched!

Even the new "Doom:Eternal" will not accomplish this deep&straight gameplay charm

of crossing X great surrealistic maze-maps/areas

with intriguing monster-group encounters (by placing & mixing & number),

through a smooth&speedy basic movement & clear shooting action of the player;

it flows so incredibly well!

 

The only Problem is, that such Big Joy the base  gameplay of Doom gives,

it could have for the Players now little bit more  Elements added in, 

to expand & deepen, enrich its beauty.

 

Yes sure, there are many crazy good mods out, that put so many new interesting elements in!

,but most Add-ons/Mods usually go Over Kill in Monsters or Weapons

and breaking so the gameplay for fair-challenging & diverse action possibilities!

& that the problem if you search for this kind of original video game "shooting joy" of Doom,

where you have interesting monster-group fight situations that are challenging but fair,

provide a big range of different approaches/ play-styles to handle the situation,

and not forcing the player to hide & quick save all the time, like in clusterfuck or so, 

as also fixating your play on one type of overpowered weapons, if you want to get through.

I have nothing about this kind of mods they  add something unique & interesting & are fun,

but no doubt, they don't give the kind of fun that the base doom provides! 

 

So I haven't the yet the skills to mod & are unfortunately to lazy to get better,

but its starts with concepts & liked to open here a discussion about

what Monsters, Weapons, Items could be added in for Doom2,

so the Charm of the core-gameplay could be extended, even improved,

but in a way that doesn't  destroy its very deep gameplay logic. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52RHuys1ll8

 

I think the most important thing is to acknowledge that you can't add to much,

as also to keep the key-principle, that every new element must be different in its function!

 

for the Weapons :   

 

1/ FistChainsaw                      |muscle power ;)    

2/ Pistol 4/ Chaingun               |bullets          

3/ Shotgun, super Shotgun      |shotgun shells 

5/ Rocket launcher                   |rockets 

6/ Plasma gun 7/ BFG9000     |cells

 

I figured so far out, that from the crazy mod weapons

two could be nice to extend-enrich the core play, like adding:

3/ quad Shotgun (ultra Shotgun), that would function like the Rocket launcher from damage output,

that you could use in small rooms against many enemies or strong ones,

but in contrast to rockets without the penalty of damaging your self

and ofcaurse it would have an longer reload animation then the super Shotgun,

& should have rare placement for levels, function as a special kind of weapon.

 

Then a Beam gun! It could add interesting Attack options & strategies,

and it wouldn't break the core-gameplay, but extend-enrich it.

So the Beam gun would be practically the same as an Rail gun, even use the same sprites,

but its in contrast a high intense energy ray, based on the use of energy/cells, 

that shoots a straight line of energy beam that can go through many enemies!

So more Enemies get hit by the energy beam, so more will the dmg be divided

& then distributed in equal way on the affected enemies;

For example the beam has 100 dmg & hitting with it 1 Enemy will transfer the full dmg to its hp,

but if the weapon hits 2 Monsters, then its dmg divides in 50 50 for each of the Monsters.

With 5 Enemy lined up & hit, everyone of them gets 20 dmg & so on.

Sure the exact dmg output must be adjusted in coordination with other weapons,

but the principle stands and would enable some great fighting ways & styles!

The Bean gun function as a weapon between plasma & BFG.

 

Also  thinking how sense full would be to implement an super BFG that uses all cells at once,

but it would keep the principle of giving every new element a distinct use;

because the ultra shotgun functions as a close rocket luncher, so its an interesting upgrade but this not so much.

 

The Monsters are very hard one to figure out, because really there already exist many interesting sprites & concepts,

but to provide and very distinct way of fight in contrast to the already established monsters of vanilla, as also to keep 

the attack clear, so in groups it doesn't become a spam fast.

If You have some nice proposition plz tell & also it doesn't to have be 20 new monster or so,

5 new but very faithful to the distinct design philosophy would be very good!

So no Cyberdemon with 2 rockets ;) As also no cardinal style, to fast & teleport,

because really the Cast of Doom Enemies one could compare to an Orchestral,

they must all work together in a very harmonic way to create some great Music/Gameplay!

 

Thx for taking your time & reading

                             

 

 

 

Edited by sualocin

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this is a really interesting topic, I appreciate your post a lot @sualocin. I definitely feel the same as you regarding the strengths of Doom's gameplay. and similarly, I would really love to see more effort put into retaining all the great things about Doom's gameplay, but simply adding more to them, much like what Doom 2 was to Doom 1. most of the community here on Doomworld tends to be pretty vanilla/limit-removing centric, and as a result, I don't feel like there's been a ton of well-crafted exploration into new monster and weapon types to enhance the game, outside of the extremely limited capabilities of dehacked/MBF stuff. I really hope that more folks explore how to expand on the vanilla arsenal and bestiary using the capabilities offered by more advanced ports like GZDoom and the like, because there is a lot of potential there.

 

the weapon ideas you proposed here @sualocin sound really cool, especially the beam gun. having some sort of ripper/railgun/cleave damage gun is a really interesting thought that seems worth exploring. something I have experimented with in a recent mod is a shotgun variant that can shoot 4 ssg-like projectile bursts in quick succession before having to reload. it has pretty extreme spread on the pellets, so you really have to be close to your target to get value from the gun. I think it probably fits the same role as the quad shotgun you're talking about, though it's not exactly the same thing.

 

I'm also really curious how well the Shock Rifle from Unreal Tournament would work in Doom. I haven't played UT, but it seems like a really mechanically interesting weapon, though I'm not too sure how well it would work in a PvE setting rather than PvP.

 

as far as monsters go, what I've been really interesting in adding to the game are enemies whose function is centered around area-denial. how can I deter a player from moving into/through a space in a more compelling way than just shooting a lot of fireballs at them? how can I force the player to be more careful about their movement? I recently released a map/mod combo that has some new monsters that are geared specifically toward area denial:

 

Diabolist: this monster's attack places little pillars of fire on the ground underneath you that explode over the course of a few seconds. this means that you have to really pay attention to your pathing, otherwise you might retrace your steps too soon and dance right into an explosion. here's a video demonstration

 

Tortured Soul: similar to a Cacodemon, but every time it's in pain or dies, it spits out lingering clouds of poison that can damage both the player and other monsters. as a result, it's functionally similar to Suicide Bomber monsters in some ways. if you "detonate" the monster amidst a crowd of other monsters, then the other monsters will take damage from the poison. and similarly, if you "detonate" the monster close to you (the player), you're potentially in trouble because now there's gas in your face that discourages you from moving forward for a few seconds. here's a video demonstration

 

Pyro Demon: basically the same as a hell knight, but its projectiles explode into tiny bits of fire that stay on the ground for a few seconds and damage the player. this means that, as a player, you have to be aware of where the Pyro Demon's projectile exploded, and be careful not to retread the explosion spot for a few seconds till the fire dissipates. here's a video demonstration

 

there are no doubt a ton of other potential monster types that would fit well in the game, but those are some of the ones that I've thought of so far that I think make for pretty good additions to the game!

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Quote

captivating video-gameplay-shooter-Dance, 

 

This resonates so much with me. I think about that a lot while playing. The timing and telegraphing of everything really does turn it into a dance.

 

I've also thought a lot about what you're talking about as well, expanding on a game in a novel way rather than tweaking things to make "Super Imp" and "Fast chaingunner" etc. The archvile is a perfect example of this. It works totally differently to every enemy from Doom 1 and drastically changes the combat encounter while feeling totally organic.

 

@Tango For the area of denial monster you could have a large enemy where the damage done to it scales with distance. The closer you are the less damage you do, forcing you to get further away. I'm not sure if that would be fun in practice but it would add a new dynamic to the encounter where you'd have to modify your movement.

 

I like the denial of area principle because it relates to what makes the archvile and pain elemental so good. You immediately have to modify how you approach the situation (i.e target them first) with new variables. You might not want to rush in and attack the archvile but rather have that arachnatron that's miles away cause some in-fighting. With the pain elemental if they start in-fighting you really need to hustle to stop it from spewing 666 lost souls out.

 

I was thinking about some sort of monster (Lovecraftian Eldritch abomination in my mind) where they would target enemy monsters under certain conditions and basically absorb them. For each monster (or however many) they 'absorb' they would fire an extra projectile maybe? Or they would gain different things from different monsters (absorb baron = more hp, absorb PE = spit a lost soul every 4th projectile etc) but I think it might be too confusing like that. It wouldn't be able to telegraph everything it could do. Maybe it could absorb an ability/effect from each (or only some) monster type and then have an animation for each of those attacks/effects?

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Moved topic to "Doom General".

 

Some playing styles require monster in-fighting, such as slaughtermaps. So: perhaps a mod where you can initiate fights between monsters more actively, such a turning one or more friendly or possessing them directly.

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Posted (edited)

I think Quake could have been such an extension to Doom 2, like adding curving projectiles with the grenade launcher and ogres, quad damage, room over room and underwater parts of course, scripted events...

 

But some drastic changes in balance made it its own thing. Same observation with Quake 2: railgun, hub system... but hitscan enemies domination and feedback when shooting them are just not the same.

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I am always slightly baffled when people aim to make the classic doom experience "deeper", and start it off with thinking about adding new weapons, some of which being as ridiculous as a BFG that unleashes a "600 cell blast of death", or a "quad shotgun".

 

I guess at the end of the day it depends what you want out of the game, and if your main goal is to make shooting things more interesting by adding new stuff to shoot monsters with, by all means add whatever. Just don't be surprised if nobody likes to use a "quad SG" for longer periods of time because the extended reload-time that is required to keep the weapon balanced messes with the gameplay pace, while using the classic SSG feels more "fluent". Nevermind that situations in which a 600-cell-BFG-blast would be "attractive" at all mostly occur in slaugthermaps and don't happen anywhere else, really.

 

If anything I've played in recent past tells me anything, the most effective way to make the game deeper/richer is by filling gaps in the combat chain, and making clever use of the new monsters as well as the original ones. WADs like Valiant, Ancient Aliens, and Magnolia have done this by adding new things to the roster, and most importantly building their fights around these new things to get actual value out of their respective new assets.

 

All that being said, I'd recommend you first start with creating new maps using only the base assets, and then get into adding new stuff that you feel like you want to build around.

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Posted (edited)

@Tango,

so happy to hear, that you appreciate this post :D & thank you very much for your deep & interesting Views on this topic.

 

Your design-direction for the new monsters with the gameplay concept of area-denial seems so on point

to be an really good addition to the classic gameplay core! This style of Attack would add a new interesting strategical Dimension for the fights.

Sure you are already avoiding & spacing away from shooting monsters, but through such kind of attack

you would get automatically more thoughtful in your movement style, then moving only on a short sided reacting play style.

So the degree of planing in the play style would increase & paradoxely I think this would happen automatically, after some encounters ;).

What you say of letting this area-denial attack concept express through an mine like trap mechanism, but the traps dosnt damage you, instead would paralise your movment, but not look-direction & shooting ability. The only way to get out would be to shoot the trap monster. This monster would in some frequency & number (3-8 but not infinitive) lay the traps by marking some spots on the ground & walking through them would akitvate the traps. Also infight trap for other type of monsters is possible. So you could prioritze this Enemy type or feeling confident & manoveour around its traps & maybe letting it work for your advantage by letting it trap other monsters. Hitpoints aound the value of an Revenant would be good. Its Movement should be quick, but not fast as an Archvile, & also an unpredictable Zick-zack pattern for movement & lying hard to predict traps & making it hard to shoot-hit, because only a hit would cancel & let dissapear the traps. So the traps-spells on the ground would dissapear if you manage to damage the monster & then it would have to start again new traps. This way i think would make a deeper fighting mechanic. Its damage attack should be only meele, but it would prioritize to trap you & then to atack with its dark big claws. For the Look to hold up on classic Dooms great clear distinction principle  i would go with the color green, like the taff pinky in the evetirnity mod. For the body a kind of imp look mixed with the archvile in hight.

A strong look inspiration would be this monster  https://diablo.gamepedia.com/Lightning_Demon_(Diablo_I) 

but in the face I would definitely go for this https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1566518, it was even the core inspiration for the direction of look,

especially the color-design, some very Nasty trap like demon. 

 

(Also your vids are very nice, so thx for showing this in real gameplay & in way, what a nice minimalistic hud - beautiful!

+providing your mod link, so very nice :)

 

In context of your presented idea of area-denial gameplay principle I think its well suited to discuss the idea

of letting a specific set of monsters (not all) having an instant-kill melee Attack, that is triggered if you get upclose.

The activation here is done by an  random chance generator that is using different probabilities to execute for the different monster types.

I think this would be a fitting selection & set up:

       Pinky                              Baron of Hell                             Cacodemon                                    Cyberdemon

(eat-lowP_10%)               (rip-mediumP_50%)                   (eat-highP_80%)                      (Stomp-very highP_90%)         What you say ;)

& of course the nice fatality animation could be borrowed from Brutal doom.

Especially in the case of Cocodemon with this additional Attack it would present a very fascinating fight situation,

because they have a slow movement speed, but now if they get close to you its gets always very unpleasant,

no matter how much armor & health you have, there glooms the chance of beeing 1 hitted, making them so really terrifying!

This would in a subtile way upgrade the danger-level of Enemies & overall bring a new intensity to the fight.

Also this express an interesting minimalistic way to influence the movement pattern of the player;

no longer, oh I easily get upclose & greet with my shotgun a Cacodemon or Baron of hell.

Oh no, such greeting becomes now a dangerous trade between your wish for Big damage & the wish to keep your safety,

but still your greet remains possible to do, but way more risky & the Cyberdemon-punching becomes  such even more crazy!

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

@xvertigox

So nice to read your expression, that this description let your heart resonate.

So interesting & beautiful to read this_ xvertigox:“The timing and telegraphing of everything really does turn it into a dance.“

It seems now clear, that the Art of Dance can be expressed in many different realities :D

 

You say it! The archvile is a perfect example of a great monster addition for the core gameplay of classic DOOM.

Its very different to the previous Monsters but also feeling in tune to the base theme & gameplay!

 

Man, the monster Eater/absorber, is such a genius idea!

Now we officially have a monster-mechanic, that can be close to the greatnesses of the archvile gameplay concept.

But you are right, it would get too confusing with absorbing to much of attacks & so.

I think there could be an solution to this interesting Enemy concept, that would make this enemy type super!

Its all about simplicity, like the classic DOOM is!

visuals 

So first little bit about the proposition for its look. So we could represent this Monster Absorber as  a taff white Blob-sphere;

yeah we could even visually use the mega sphere gif, but in white, to represent it, but with a grimmer Doomguy look, or an Eye or so.

color 

& choosing the color white for it, to create with through it a strong signalization & distinction from all other monsters,

as create so visually a kind of vibe of something special-extraordinary, because man such monster would be something special, special dangerous ;).

behavior 

This white sphere then is floating or moving in a very slowly manner to an enemy, & if succeed to touch it, then it posses the targeted monster.

Also it should prioritize the stronger monsters to posses, but always operate first in the context of distance, so ignoring far away positioned monsters. 

The poessesion would be visually presented by making it white or so & adding some nice sound for it; maybe even changing little bit the face design.

effect 

But now comes the best part, this monster multiplies the hosts hp x2 + adding its own of around 250 to it,

as also increase the hosts movement & attack speed, slightly around 10%, that it can naturally then use.

conclusion begin 

So then even an Imp would be pain in ass & about an Archvile i don’t even want to speak!

& forget the Cyberdemon completly, with this absorber it would become a pure nightmare.

additional mechanic 

In context of this dangerous monster there could be added an interesting mechanic to help here out.

So it could be made, that through the use of energy weapons (plasma gun & BFG) on a possessed monster,

you would be so able to bypass the absorbers transformed health value & damage the original-normal host body HP,

& such destroying it quicker and letting it again be in its slow floating sphere form. Such giving  special advantages to the high level 6&7 weapons.

In example: If the Absorber absorbs a already damage taken Cyber demon with 2750 hp,

it transforms its Hp-value to 5500 + adding the Absorbers own 250 Hp, so resulting in a Cyberdemon with 5750 Hp,

so now you would have to spend quite the Ammunition for it, but with this need mechanic,

the energy weapons would only register the cyberdemons original hp value, that you also already damaged & only deal damage to it.

Then after the explosion, the absorbers sphere emerges, where its own Hp remained in tact & is still full; aiming for a new monster or the player.

Even now as writing this passage of thought I realized, that the best would be, to let the Absorber always keep its separate Hp!

So if you didn't manage to neutralize the Absorber before it could touch a monster, you are always forced to kill first the transformed body host,

& then again shoot on the Absorber itself & hope to manage to destroy it before it can touch-posses a new monster! 

So Nice the gameplay mechanic it adds in, but still not sure about the definitive health pool for this monster, high or low? 

Because for Big groups & the use of many Absorbers it would make a sense to have low hp, to keep the Classical Doom principle it tact, hard but fair,

but then again to let the Absorber feel menacing & be a very special danger, a high Hp pool around 1000 to 1500 seems very fitting, or?

& also maybe if  you touch the monster in its original form it takes all your health instantly, so you have to avoid to contact it.

conclusion final 

So fascinating, just to imagine this. One of this monster would be bad but 2  & 4, so good ;D 

I think the BFG found a new favorite friend to play with! Dont be envy Cyberdemon, Archvile and Mastermind the BFG didn’t forget its use for you ;D

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

@Mordeth

There is already as power up a Monster-trasformation in brutal DOOM,

but a power up that would make all Monster infighting for some period of time

& letting them completely ignore you, could be as nice addition,

but would probably in big groups mess up the monster behavior after turning off.

Possession so nice it would be, I think it would be not good for the Doom character,

because the characteristic & charm of the Doom monsters is, that

they are unstoppable killing machines & the possibility of turning them

would take this feel away, but infighting does not :)

_____________________________________________________________________________________

@Nine Inch Heels

You are Right! it is not a fitting way to enrich/deepen classic Doom

with the concepts of quad SG or a super BFG.

So I am distancing from seeing this weapons as a good additions

for Dooms basic gameplay & staying true to the principles I see,

that the SSG should be the peak Shell Ammo weapon & also BFG must be the Max Dmg!

I realized this very clear, after thinking deeper about it!

 

& also very important like you say, the fluent gameplay pace of Doom2 has to be

the overall criterium for letting a new weapon & its shooting mechanic in!

Agree & Thx very much for pointing this out, so important!

 

& so right, because of the Enemy numbers, even the slow reload time must be fast,

you clearly see the developers awareness about this in Doom1&2 on the example of BFG.

If you compare it to its version in the new installments of Doom(3-RoE,2016),

its way slower there!  & no, that doesn’t automatic mean that I am positive

about the BFG from Q3, because it was more like an Big Plasma gun!

& BFG  has to have this 1 Big Ball & slow fire rate, but fast enough ;)

Edited by sualocin

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