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sualocin

Doom2 (1994) Core-gameplay extension!?

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Posted (edited)

So the vanilla version of Doom 2, with its thoughtful Monster&Weapon-design

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuOObGjCA7Q

 

managed to establish an captivating video-gameplay-shooter-Dance

that will probably remain for a very long time in its respective gameplay direction unmatched!

Even the new "Doom:Eternal" will not accomplish this deep&straight gameplay charm

of crossing X great surrealistic maze-maps/areas

with intriguing monster-group encounters (by placing & mixing & number),

through a smooth&speedy basic movement & clear shooting action of the player;

it flows so incredibly well!

 

The only Problem is, that such Big Joy the base  gameplay of Doom gives,

it could have for the Players now little bit more  Elements added in, 

to expand & deepen, enrich its beauty.

 

Yes sure, there are many crazy good mods out, that put so many new interesting elements in!

,but most Add-ons/Mods usually go Over Kill in Monsters or Weapons

and breaking so the gameplay for fair-challenging & diverse action possibilities!

& that the problem if you search for this kind of original video game "shooting joy" of Doom,

where you have interesting monster-group fight situations that are challenging but fair,

provide a big range of different approaches/ play-styles to handle the situation,

and not forcing the player to hide & quick save all the time, like in clusterfuck or so, 

as also fixating your play on one type of overpowered weapons, if you want to get through.

I have nothing about this kind of mods they  add something unique & interesting & are fun,

but no doubt, they don't give the kind of fun that the base doom provides! 

 

So I haven't the yet the skills to mod & are unfortunately to lazy to get better,

but its starts with concepts & liked to open here a discussion about

what Monsters, Weapons, Items could be added in for Doom2,

so the Charm of the core-gameplay could be extended, even improved,

but in a way that doesn't  destroy its very deep gameplay logic. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52RHuys1ll8

 

I think the most important thing is to acknowledge that you can't add to much,

as also to keep the key-principle, that every new element must be different in its function!

 

for the Weapons :   

 

1/ FistChainsaw                      |muscle power ;)    

2/ Pistol 4/ Chaingun               |bullets          

3/ Shotgun, super Shotgun      |shotgun shells 

5/ Rocket launcher                   |rockets 

6/ Plasma gun 7/ BFG9000     |cells

 

I figured so far out, that from the crazy mod weapons

two could be nice to extend-enrich the core play, like adding:

3/ quad Shotgun (ultra Shotgun), that would function like the Rocket launcher from damage output,

that you could use in small rooms against many enemies or strong ones,

but in contrast to rockets without the penalty of damaging your self

and ofcaurse it would have an longer reload animation then the super Shotgun,

& should have rare placement for levels, function as a special kind of weapon.

 

Then a Beam gun! It could add interesting Attack options & strategies,

and it wouldn't break the core-gameplay, but extend-enrich it.

So the Beam gun would be practically the same as an Rail gun, even use the same sprites,

but its in contrast a high intense energy ray, based on the use of energy/cells, 

that shoots a straight line of energy beam that can go through many enemies!

So more Enemies get hit by the energy beam, so more will the dmg be divided

& then distributed in equal way on the affected enemies;

For example the beam has 100 dmg & hitting with it 1 Enemy will transfer the full dmg to its hp,

but if the weapon hits 2 Monsters, then its dmg divides in 50 50 for each of the Monsters.

With 5 Enemy lined up & hit, everyone of them gets 20 dmg & so on.

Sure the exact dmg output must be adjusted in coordination with other weapons,

but the principle stands and would enable some great fighting ways & styles!

The Bean gun function as a weapon between plasma & BFG.

 

Also  thinking how sense full would be to implement an super BFG that uses all cells at once,

but it would keep the principle of giving every new element a distinct use;

because the ultra shotgun functions as a close rocket luncher, so its an interesting upgrade but this not so much.

 

The Monsters are very hard one to figure out, because really there already exist many interesting sprites & concepts,

but to provide and very distinct way of fight in contrast to the already established monsters of vanilla, as also to keep 

the attack clear, so in groups it doesn't become a spam fast.

If You have some nice proposition plz tell & also it doesn't to have be 20 new monster or so,

5 new but very faithful to the distinct design philosophy would be very good!

So no Cyberdemon with 2 rockets ;) As also no cardinal style, to fast & teleport,

because really the Cast of Doom Enemies one could compare to an Orchestral,

they must all work together in a very harmonic way to create some great Music/Gameplay!

 

Thx for taking your time & reading

                             

 

 

 

Edited by sualocin

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this is a really interesting topic, I appreciate your post a lot @sualocin. I definitely feel the same as you regarding the strengths of Doom's gameplay. and similarly, I would really love to see more effort put into retaining all the great things about Doom's gameplay, but simply adding more to them, much like what Doom 2 was to Doom 1. most of the community here on Doomworld tends to be pretty vanilla/limit-removing centric, and as a result, I don't feel like there's been a ton of well-crafted exploration into new monster and weapon types to enhance the game, outside of the extremely limited capabilities of dehacked/MBF stuff. I really hope that more folks explore how to expand on the vanilla arsenal and bestiary using the capabilities offered by more advanced ports like GZDoom and the like, because there is a lot of potential there.

 

the weapon ideas you proposed here @sualocin sound really cool, especially the beam gun. having some sort of ripper/railgun/cleave damage gun is a really interesting thought that seems worth exploring. something I have experimented with in a recent mod is a shotgun variant that can shoot 4 ssg-like projectile bursts in quick succession before having to reload. it has pretty extreme spread on the pellets, so you really have to be close to your target to get value from the gun. I think it probably fits the same role as the quad shotgun you're talking about, though it's not exactly the same thing.

 

I'm also really curious how well the Shock Rifle from Unreal Tournament would work in Doom. I haven't played UT, but it seems like a really mechanically interesting weapon, though I'm not too sure how well it would work in a PvE setting rather than PvP.

 

as far as monsters go, what I've been really interesting in adding to the game are enemies whose function is centered around area-denial. how can I deter a player from moving into/through a space in a more compelling way than just shooting a lot of fireballs at them? how can I force the player to be more careful about their movement? I recently released a map/mod combo that has some new monsters that are geared specifically toward area denial:

 

Diabolist: this monster's attack places little pillars of fire on the ground underneath you that explode over the course of a few seconds. this means that you have to really pay attention to your pathing, otherwise you might retrace your steps too soon and dance right into an explosion. here's a video demonstration

 

Tortured Soul: similar to a Cacodemon, but every time it's in pain or dies, it spits out lingering clouds of poison that can damage both the player and other monsters. as a result, it's functionally similar to Suicide Bomber monsters in some ways. if you "detonate" the monster amidst a crowd of other monsters, then the other monsters will take damage from the poison. and similarly, if you "detonate" the monster close to you (the player), you're potentially in trouble because now there's gas in your face that discourages you from moving forward for a few seconds. here's a video demonstration

 

Pyro Demon: basically the same as a hell knight, but its projectiles explode into tiny bits of fire that stay on the ground for a few seconds and damage the player. this means that, as a player, you have to be aware of where the Pyro Demon's projectile exploded, and be careful not to retread the explosion spot for a few seconds till the fire dissipates. here's a video demonstration

 

there are no doubt a ton of other potential monster types that would fit well in the game, but those are some of the ones that I've thought of so far that I think make for pretty good additions to the game!

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Quote

captivating video-gameplay-shooter-Dance, 

 

This resonates so much with me. I think about that a lot while playing. The timing and telegraphing of everything really does turn it into a dance.

 

I've also thought a lot about what you're talking about as well, expanding on a game in a novel way rather than tweaking things to make "Super Imp" and "Fast chaingunner" etc. The archvile is a perfect example of this. It works totally differently to every enemy from Doom 1 and drastically changes the combat encounter while feeling totally organic.

 

@Tango For the area of denial monster you could have a large enemy where the damage done to it scales with distance. The closer you are the less damage you do, forcing you to get further away. I'm not sure if that would be fun in practice but it would add a new dynamic to the encounter where you'd have to modify your movement.

 

I like the denial of area principle because it relates to what makes the archvile and pain elemental so good. You immediately have to modify how you approach the situation (i.e target them first) with new variables. You might not want to rush in and attack the archvile but rather have that arachnatron that's miles away cause some in-fighting. With the pain elemental if they start in-fighting you really need to hustle to stop it from spewing 666 lost souls out.

 

I was thinking about some sort of monster (Lovecraftian Eldritch abomination in my mind) where they would target enemy monsters under certain conditions and basically absorb them. For each monster (or however many) they 'absorb' they would fire an extra projectile maybe? Or they would gain different things from different monsters (absorb baron = more hp, absorb PE = spit a lost soul every 4th projectile etc) but I think it might be too confusing like that. It wouldn't be able to telegraph everything it could do. Maybe it could absorb an ability/effect from each (or only some) monster type and then have an animation for each of those attacks/effects?

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Moved topic to "Doom General".

 

Some playing styles require monster in-fighting, such as slaughtermaps. So: perhaps a mod where you can initiate fights between monsters more actively, such a turning one or more friendly or possessing them directly.

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I think Quake could have been such an extension to Doom 2, like adding curving projectiles with the grenade launcher and ogres, quad damage, room over room and underwater parts of course, scripted events...

 

But some drastic changes in balance made it its own thing. Same observation with Quake 2: railgun, hub system... but hitscan enemies domination and feedback when shooting them are just not the same.

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I am always slightly baffled when people aim to make the classic doom experience "deeper", and start it off with thinking about adding new weapons, some of which being as ridiculous as a BFG that unleashes a "600 cell blast of death", or a "quad shotgun".

 

I guess at the end of the day it depends what you want out of the game, and if your main goal is to make shooting things more interesting by adding new stuff to shoot monsters with, by all means add whatever. Just don't be surprised if nobody likes to use a "quad SG" for longer periods of time because the extended reload-time that is required to keep the weapon balanced messes with the gameplay pace, while using the classic SSG feels more "fluent". Nevermind that situations in which a 600-cell-BFG-blast would be "attractive" at all mostly occur in slaugthermaps and don't happen anywhere else, really.

 

If anything I've played in recent past tells me anything, the most effective way to make the game deeper/richer is by filling gaps in the combat chain, and making clever use of the new monsters as well as the original ones. WADs like Valiant, Ancient Aliens, and Magnolia have done this by adding new things to the roster, and most importantly building their fights around these new things to get actual value out of their respective new assets.

 

All that being said, I'd recommend you first start with creating new maps using only the base assets, and then get into adding new stuff that you feel like you want to build around.

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