unpopular retro opinions

[hybridial]

12 minutes ago, Woolie Wool said:

I liked Dragonspear's storyline right up to the point where the game took away Caelar Argent's agency and gave it to that pretty-boy wizard and the boss from IWD1. I was revved up for an epic and tragic ideological confrontation between my LG paladin and a relatable but misguided LG antagonist and got a generic final dungeon and boss fight against a cackling monster covered in spikes. What a letdown.

 

Yeah, Caelar Argent had potential, but I had various issues with how she was presented (her actions being inherently selfish yet she's Lawful good, that alignment system is a problem because why hasn't she fallen from it? Then again maybe she's not a paladin, I'm not sure what they have her as class-wise. But the fact she's leading a charge against hell for her own reasons is good enough even though its going to get a lot of people killed). That scenario is something you get when you play a lot of these tropes too straight, they're simply not relateable. Good Forgotten Realms writing plays with the tropes, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 rarely ever plays cliches straight. And then there's the plot with Skie which was so unnecessary. Then again the whole thing is really unnecessary with only some dialogue scenes with Irenicus adding a little more spice to the narrative. I could live without it though. Bhaalspawn gets exiled due to internal politics and because of their heritage, Irenicus after watching the conflict you had with Sarevok picks a moment of vulnerability, ambushes your party and that's as complicated as it ever needed to be. 

[fufu]

Shadow Warrior>Duke Nukem 3D

 

The 8 bit aesthetic is overused, 16 and 32 bits games look much better.

 

Sonic 3 and Knuckles is the best classic sonic game and it's much better than sonic cd and sonic 2.

[dr_st]

16 minutes ago, Danzer said:

The 8 bit aesthetic is overused, 16 and 32 bits games look much better.

That's an unpopular opinion? :P

 

However, I'm positively impressed how some DOS games managed to look good with only 16 colors.

 

CD-Man

Duke Nukem II (the intro cinematics are 256 colors, the game is 16).

 

[Szuran]

1. Sin is one of the best Quake-era shooters, and was ahead of its time.

2. Blood has a cool setting and weapons, but is monotonous and starts to get boring around Episode 2.

3. Exhumed/Powerslave, the console version, is among the absolutely best FPS games from the 90s, and is criminally underrated.

[fufu]

1 hour ago, dr_st said:

That's an unpopular opinion? :P

 

However, I'm positively impressed how some DOS games managed to look good with only 16 colors.

 

CD-Man

Duke Nukem II (the intro cinematics are 256 colors, the game is 16).

 

Considering the amount of indie games that use it i think it's safe to say that is a unpopular opinion.

[MassiveEdgelord]

14 minutes ago, Danzer said:

Considering the amount of indie games that use it i think it's safe to say that is a unpopular opinion.

Those games use 16-bits

[TheNoob_Gamer]

12 hours ago, Szuran said:

3. Exhumed/Powerslave, the console version, is among the absolutely best FPS games from the 90s, and is criminally underrated.

This isn't underrated - many actually regarded the console version of this game to be better than the PC one.

 

[taufan99]

16 minutes ago, TheNoob_Gamer said:

This isn't underrated - many actually regarded the console version of this game to be better than the PC one.

The Sega Saturn port is also noted as being superior to the PSX port in some parts, particularly the lighting. An achievement that not many Saturn games have.

[Szuran]

4 hours ago, InDOOMnesia said:

The Sega Saturn port is also noted as being superior to the PSX port in some parts, particularly the lighting. An achievement that not many Saturn games have.

 

While frame rate is more stable, I wouldn't call this port "better". It's different. Lighting in the PSX version is more natural, Saturn is overblown and cartoonish. It's like colors in Doom vs Doom 64, the fact there's more doesn't necrssarily make it better. Also, frame rate on Saturn _seems_ better because it fluctuate less, but on the other hand, PSX can go up to 60 fps (but sometimes drop below 30).

[A Nobody]

A port is superior because of the lighting? That's not right.

[Graf Zahl]

19 hours ago, Danzer said:

Shadow Warrior>Duke Nukem 3D

 

The 8 bit aesthetic is overused, 16 and 32 bits games look much better.

 

Agreed on both points. On the second one I may have an even more unpopular opinion:

 

8 bit aesthetics suck no matter what when it comes to 3D games. I've set to see a single game that looks better on a paletted display compared to being extended to true color. That particularly goes for games that go all out on cooking their palette lookups to 'enhance' the look - it's something that will fail by default. I absolutely can't stand how Heretic looks in 8 bit, for example - the fade is totally unnatural for some colors.

 

57 minutes ago, The Strife Commando said:

A port is superior because of the lighting? That's not right.

 

Here's another unpopular opinion: Many developers of those early years didn't know shit about lighting and the results they produced were flat out awful. In that regard, surely, if someone who ports such a game fixes the lighting it can be a major improvement.

 

[ReaperAA]

15 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

I absolutely can't stand how Heretic looks in 8 bit, for example - the fade is totally unnatural for some colors.

 

but.... but I like the how the water looks (especially in my HeresyPal) in paletted mode :(

[seed]

Ya rlly, I love 8 bit aesthetics too. In fact here's an unpopular opinion: 8 bit > 16/32 bit.

 

But it depends on the game, certainly :p. I like true color more in some cases. But for a game like Heretic no, absolutely not, as unnatural as some colors look in some instances. Blues look extremely washed out in GL, all their charm is killed. But I agree that the fading in some instances is a bit extreme - not a fan of how things fade to black so quickly, for one. Similar to the main Build games, their fade to black is way too fast, making big, dark open areas in maps look hideous.

 

2 hours ago, Szuran said:

PSX can go up to 60 fps (but sometimes drop below 30.

 

PSX Doom goes up to a maximum of 30fps. At this point in time, none of the Doom ports could go above 30. Not even Doom 64 did.

[Graf Zahl]

6 minutes ago, seed said:

But I agree that the fading in some instances is a bit extreme - not a fan of how things fade to black so quickly, for one. Similar to the main Build games, their fade to black is way too fast, making big, dark open areas in maps look hideous.

 

 

That will be one of the first things I'm going to address once I manage to move Raze to the GZDoom backend: Add some alternatives for depth fading, because Build's native algorithm is one of the worst I've ever seen. Aside from the banding, Doom's depth fading always looked good to me, but Build's is a totally different story, many maps just look ugly - no matter which game.

 

7 minutes ago, seed said:

But for a game like Heretic no, absolutely not, as unnatural as some colors look in some instances. Blues look extremely washed out in GL, all their charm is killed.

 

Better than getting eyesores from those hideous color ramps! :P

 

[Szuran]

41 minutes ago, seed said:

PSX Doom goes up to a maximum of 30fps. At this point in time, none of the Doom ports could go above 30. Not even Doom 64 did.

 

Exhumed didn't use the Doom engine, it used a custom fully 3D engine (with 2D enemy sprites).

[seed]

30 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Better than getting eyesores from those hideous color ramps! :P

 

Oh c'mon, blues "shining" in the dark are awesome :p.

 

31 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

That will be one of the first things I'm going to address once I manage to move Raze to the GZDoom backend: Add some alternatives for depth fading, because Build's native algorithm is one of the worst I've ever seen. Aside from the banding, Doom's depth fading always looked good to me, but Build's is a totally different story, many maps just look ugly - no matter which game.

 

Some sector light modes would be nice as well, but that's prolly better left for a new render.

 

In Doom's engine, the advantage was that thing slowly faded in the distance, whereas in Build they do so immediately, and regarless of game no less. This kinda works for Blood honestly - beginning of E4 comes to mind here, with the castle and all - but in Duke and SW it doesn't work at all, especially SW since it works too much to the enemy's advantage in some levels. With palette emulation enabled it is better though, but without it past a certain point everything becomes overly dark in the distance.

 

7 minutes ago, Szuran said:

Exhumed didn't use the Doom engine, it used a custom fully 3D engine (with 2D enemy sprites).

 

Ah wait, you were talking about Exhumed here? Heh, the comparison to Doom confused me, so I thought you switched the subject to another game.

[A Nobody]

7 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

Agreed on both points. On the second one I may have an even more unpopular opinion:

 

8 bit aesthetics suck no matter what when it comes to 3D games. I've set to see a single game that looks better on a paletted display compared to being extended to true color. That particularly goes for games that go all out on cooking their palette lookups to 'enhance' the look - it's something that will fail by default. I absolutely can't stand how Heretic looks in 8 bit, for example - the fade is totally unnatural for some colors.

 

 

Here's another unpopular opinion: Many developers of those early years didn't know shit about lighting and the results they produced were flat out awful. In that regard, surely, if someone who ports such a game fixes the lighting it can be a major improvement.

 

I would care less about lighting. A fun game is what matters.

[seed]

28 minutes ago, The Strife Commando said:

I would care less about lighting. A fun game is what matters.

 

Oh I think you will, when you're playing a dark map and it becomes overly dark just a few feet in front of you thanks to the engine's shitty depth fading.

 

We're not talking about graphics here per se.

[Graf Zahl]

9 hours ago, seed said:

 whereas in Build they do so immediately, and regarless of game no less.

 

What do you expect? The lighting is part of the renderer, so of course it applies to all games.

 

3 hours ago, seed said:

Oh I think you will, when you're playing a dark map and it becomes overly dark just a few feet in front of you thanks to the engine's shitty depth fading.

 

Build's lighting is not like that mostly, it remains relatively constant for a large distance and then suddenly drops off to black very rapidly. It's just very distracting and often draws unwanted attention. This is because the fade is linear with both distance and light level which ignores two important aspects: 1) perception of light is not linear and 2) distance gets visually compressed the further away from the camera you are. Both of these combined create this rather unpleasant effect. To compensate there's normally an exponential component when calculating depth fade, but not in Build.

 

[seed]

1 hour ago, Graf Zahl said:

What do you expect? The lighting is part of the renderer, so of course it applies to all games.

 

True, but it's still annoying, in SW for me mostly, even on the first map the ninjas down the alley can easily snipe the player and they can't even see them before they descend first...

 

1 hour ago, Graf Zahl said:

Build's lighting is not like that mostly, it remains relatively constant for a large distance and then suddenly drops off to black very rapidly. It's just very distracting and often draws unwanted attention. This is because the fade is linear with both distance and light level which ignores two important aspects: 1) perception of light is not linear and 2) distance gets visually compressed the further away from the camera you are. Both of these combined create this rather unpleasant effect. To compensate there's normally an exponential component when calculating depth fade, but not in Build.

 

I wonder if this isn't something that just wasn't noticed at the time in Build, but became obvious with GL and no palette emulation. Because I can indeed see better in the distance in EDuke32 and VoidSW, but once the Software look goes away in all its wholesomeness, the fun kinda comes to a halt sometimes.

 

I noticed something similar with Doom, where the paletted look somehow helps the player see better in the dark (as the enemies and the map have that gray "shine" to them, don't know how else to put in into words).

Edited May 31, 2020 by seed

[Vic Vos]

JRPG's are really not my cup of tea.

[taufan99]

6 minutes ago, Vic Vos said:

JRPG's are really not my cup of tea.

Not exactly unpopular. Their fanbase is mostly only 1990's weebs whose existence has been waning as time goes by too.

[dr_st]

@seed @Graf Zahl

I have played Build games for over 2 decades and never noticed how terrible the lighting depth fade is, until you brought it up. Now you have permanently ruined these games for me. Thank you! :P

[hybridial]

8 hours ago, InDOOMnesia said:

Not exactly unpopular. Their fanbase is mostly only 1990's weebs whose existence has been waning as time goes by too.

 

I'm fine with it because they made the crap ones successful whilst mostly ignoring the good ones. 

[Rathori]

I always though JRPGs were popular with those who had grown up with (S)NES and PlayStation, which makes that opinion more unpopular than not. I, on the other hand, had grown up with a PC playing Fallout and other CRPG, so I never got into JRPGs. There's just something about them that keeps repulsing me.

[yakfak]

i didn't grow up with a Snes (although I got to play FF8 on PSX when it came out!) but i think stuff like Earthbound and SMT are insanely good games
and I love CRPGs too and don't see why they have to be compared;
my faves are Ultima Underworld and Daggerfall and Captive which are much more action-y than the Wizardry, Ultima, Might&magic serieses though I guess
but I still think U4 and U5 are incredible, love Wasteland (and all the door games like Wasteland lol) and think Wizardry 7 seems like the deepest game in the whole field
I really wanna go back and play old science fiction RPG games because that's way more my thing than medieval/heroic fantasy is
gonna check Starflight and all that

I remember beating Hard Nova on an atari st one thousand million years ago?

 

the later wave starting with Baldur's Gate impresses me less but I think Torment is beautiful in its peculiarity. RTWP combat doesn't feel satisfying to me, and think modelling a serious paper RPG's system on a computer game full of naff humour and endlessly spun out sidequests was always a bad judgment call. which I suppose is why I like Torment way more than the other games in that engine - less fighting! I guess that's my unpopular retro opinion lol

 

 

 

[hybridial]

1 minute ago, yakfak said:

the later wave starting with Baldur's Gate impresses me less but I think Torment is beautiful in its peculiarity. RTWP combat doesn't feel satisfying to me, and think modelling a serious paper RPG's system on a computer game full of naff humour and endlessly spun out sidequests was always a bad judgment call. which I suppose is why I like Torment way more than the other games in that engine - less fighting! I guess that's my unpopular retro opinion

 

Yeah, I absolutely adore the Infinity engine games and I think anyone who likes fricking Daggerfall shouldn't be slinging stones in glass houses :P

 

Daggerfall is a mess, Morrowind is a cool world ruined by the worst gameplay ever (which was still worse in Daggerfall but barely anyone really calls Daggerfall great compared to Morrowind), and eh, Oblivion and Skyrim are well documented. I kinda hate Bethesda's whole approach to RPGs/open world games to be honest, its always been incredibly shallow. 

[yakfak]

2 minutes ago, hybridial said:

 

Yeah, I absolutely adore the Infinity engine games and I think anyone who likes fricking Daggerfall shouldn't be slinging stones in glass houses :P

 

Daggerfall is a mess, Morrowind is a cool world ruined by the worst gameplay ever (which was still worse in Daggerfall but barely anyone really calls Daggerfall great compared to Morrowind), and eh, Oblivion and Skyrim are well documented. I kinda hate Bethesda's whole approach to RPGs/open world games to be honest, its always been incredibly shallow. 

 

side-eye to anyone who lets "gameplay" ruin a massive casual gameworld to be honest
i'd understand if you were let down by the game feedback and responsiveness in a fighting game, or a racing game but I swear no RPG has ever had "gameplay" and I hope that there'll never be one which does <3

[hybridial]

Just now, yakfak said:

 

side-eye to anyone who lets "gameplay" ruin a massive casual gameworld to be honest
i'd understand if you were let down by the game feedback and responsiveness in a fighting game, or a racing game but I swear no RPG has ever had "gameplay" and I hope that there'll never be one which does <3

 

Thing is, Morrowind could have been less terrible than it is, It just relies too much on terribly spongy enemies and button bashing melee attacks for minutes at a time. I feel with some rebalancing that could have been reduced. I don't agree with your assessment because gameplay is fundamental to all games including RPGs and calling Morrowind out on this is entirely fair. I mean Deus Ex and System Shock 2 don't suffer from such horrible repetition and those games are definitely built on RPG mechanics, closer to Morrowind than FPSes. 

[yakfak]

12 minutes ago, hybridial said:

 

Thing is, Morrowind could have been less terrible than it is, It just relies too much on terribly spongy enemies and button bashing melee attacks for minutes at a time. I feel with some rebalancing that could have been reduced. I don't agree with your assessment because gameplay is fundamental to all games including RPGs and calling Morrowind out on this is entirely fair. I mean Deus Ex and System Shock 2 don't suffer from such horrible repetition and those games are definitely built on RPG mechanics, closer to Morrowind than FPSes. 

 

in my eyes Deus Ex and SS2 are definitely shooters because they have gameplay lol
you have all these optional upgrades but can skill yr way through the game with a knife and pistol
SS2 is also far too linear to really be much of an RPG as I understand them

in morrowind you can barely move, you increase your skills by paying people to train you and your main way of interacting with the game world is opening the menu and drinking a potion. oblivion and skyrim attempted to introduce gameplay but it's glitchy and rubbish and you don't feel in control of anything much; the power moves in skyrim actually alert you to the true elder scrolls credo which is: doing anything but standing in place and pressing attack is incorrect because what results is a massive loss of control or someone getting stuck to a 3d prop. morrowind is almost 100% resource management, gloriously nihilist lack of combat potential; in fact, if you react to stuff in morrowind you are playing the game wrong. it is a pure throwdown of statistics and it makes me laugh how utterly brazenly non-game it is, especially for a significant AAA game, and I wouldn't want it any other way! it's an actual roleplaying suite for anyone who narrates their actions because the game is so skeletal and broken you ALWAYS have to explain what just happened to yrself. as a huge fan of those games, these are just the rules, and if you think you understand them and still join the fighter's guild, you didn't understand them. stand in the mage's guild and cast cantrips!

 

the flaws of morrowind to me are more like:

- nothing happens in the game world unless you precipitated it and that stretches belief too much

- getting ahead basically requires looting the whole universe; they definitely expect you to sell the sword of white woe to creeper to get going and if you actually wanna RP a character with other motives than kleptomania you will never be rich until it doesn't matter anymore